Talk:Der Ring des Nibelungen

Removal of Trivia section

I have removed the following:

==Trivia==

• The Nibelung of the title is the dwarf, Alberich. Der Ring des Nibelungen could be translated as: Alberich's Ring.^{[citation needed]}
• The German title is often mistakenly written with the article der repeated, Der Ring der Nibelungen, which means "The Ring of the Nibelungs" (plural, understood as the race to which Alberich and Mime belong).
• Nerdcore rapper MC Front-A-Lot released a song regarding his experiences attending a performance of The Ring. He expresses initial disappointment that the opera wasn't about Hobbits and ultimate joy when the final act delivered a very pleasing conclusion.

The first two points are not trivia. The first has had the fact tag for some time, and the second is irrelevant as the correct spelling is used in the article's title. The third is unsourced and adds nothing to an understanding of the Ring in general (whereas the fame of Russell's interpretation merits an inclusion). --Alexs letterbox 08:41, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

This is certainly fine by me. I thought these bits really were very trivial indeed.--Dogbertd 18:46, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

• 1. Alberich's Ring is not an accurate translation -- Alberich is of the Nibelung family/race, but not the only Nibelung -- but is an accurate English restatement of the implicit meaning: he is the Nibelung with a credible claim to owning the ring.

     And treating it as a title is not a widespread enuf error to cover: the first 30 of 103 unique and 286 raw G-hits on the phrase, i found [1] using the phrase in asking the question we asked above at #Das/Der [sic!: should read "Des/Der"], but no instances of it being used as the English title. (It does however appear in some of those hits as if it were translating some German phrase -- i haven't looked up to check it -- used by Wagner in the stage directions and/or dialogue.)

  2. A pair of G-tests shows that about 10% of Web pages commit the "double Der" (read aloud, ha-ha) error, which suggests that being overwhelmingly exposed to the correct title is not enuf to make people remember the correct title: the error is seductive, bcz a little knowledge is such a dangerous thing. (In fact, it's worse than previously stated; i'm adding a little more to the section i mentioned above under 1.) No, it's not trivia, but it is worthy of mention.
  3. The rapper & the hobbits are indeed off-topic in this article, which is enuf reason to remove them to this talk-page section. (Their being unsourced would justify a fact tag on them, but it is abusive to give "unsourced" as a reason for removal, without also arguing there is reason for presuming the info is false, e.g. at least "seems implausible". We delete for falsehood; we delete tentatively -- sincerly soliciting contrary evidence -- for either tentatively appearing false, or tentatively appearing unsource-able after making a sincere, even if not thoro, attempt to turn up some sourcing.)

--Jerzy•t 06:38, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

"Alberich's Ring" is not a correct literal translation, but it does show very clearly what "Der Ring des Nibelungen" means (ie that we're talking about the Ring that belongs to a single person who is a member of the race of Nibelungs - ie. Alberich) - and it was used as the title of one previous English translation of the libretto (Jameson, I think). This fact appears in Magee's book on Wagner and Philosophy, and so can be verified. I confess I was tempted to put it back, since it makes the meaning of the title absolutely explicit, but then I got sidetracked. --Dogbertd 08:18, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree as to the virtues of the phrase: information is lost in translating of the phrase that serves as the German title, bcz the hint given by "des" doesn't get reflected in the English translation of the phrase, and it probably is obvious to many more German speakers than English speakers that a "Nibelung" is some kind of person rather than, say, a brand or model of car, or a historical event ("Risorgimento" meaning "unification of Italy"), or a metonym like "Srebrenica" (meaning "tragedy of oppression and neglect") or "Somalia" (meaning "utterly failed project"). But "Alberich's Ring" is not a translation, since it adds information to the title in the form of naming rather than describing the owner; i think it's worth making the distinction between a translation of a title (e.g., "The Ring of the Niebelung" or maybe even "The Niebelung's Ring"), and a substitute title (whether in the same or different language), just as we would never call The Professor and the Madman (American edition) a translated title for The Surgeon of Crowthorne (original UK edition). So i'd rather have it said that "Alberich's Ring" has been used as an English title for The Ring, and accurately describes its subject matter. And doing so may be a valuable addition; with such a change of wording, i'd have no objection to restoration.
--Jerzy•t 07:15, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

In regards to the Frontalot section (which I was just about to ask about here, but checked to see if it had been discussed,) here's a source for the mention about Frontalot, the lyrics straight from his site. http://www.frontalot.com/index.php/?page=lyrics&lyricid=39 Lucashoal (talk) 02:26, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

And since I see no support OR objections, I've cited the source and added it back to the article Lucashoal (talk) 07:30, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure that a section in the main article is the best way of doing this. I think there is scope for a Wagner/The Ring in popular culture article. Following "What links here" gives quite a few retellings of the Ring in modern media such as manga, so there is plenty of material for a list.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:34, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

You lost me there in all honesty. I'm not a huge wiki-editor, I just contribute where I can. If ya mean that an entirely new article for "The Ring In Popular Culture" should be made...then go for it. I just made this addition in particular since, as noted, nobody said anything one way or the other for almost two months. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lucashoal (talk • contribs) 03:00, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

This article is on a major opera. Adding information on some rapper distorts the article. A major work of art like this will have influence on hundreds of sources of popular entertainment, but very few of these (e.g. the Bugs Bunny parody) are important enough to be mentioned. This illustrates one of the problems with Wikipedia, which is that the relative importance of certain topics can be drowned out or at least distorted when people with pet favorite interests log in just to add their bit of popular kitsch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by AliceTaniyama (talk • contribs) 21:22, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

But Frontalot isn't just some rapper. He's the 579th greatest rapper in the World! And now in all seriousness, I get what you're saying. May not agree ENTIRELY, but I understand what you're getting at and will defer to popular opinion.Lucashoal (talk) 02:02, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for accepting this. I've just gone and chopped out a whole lot more pop culture trivia. This stuff isn't anywhere central enough as a fact about Wagner's Ring to go in this article. It might be important as a fact about a rapper's career or a particular video game etc to merit mention in articles on thos subjects. And, as I said last year, an article specifically on Wagner's role in popular culture could merit all sorts of mentions.--Peter cohen (talk) 20:30, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Ending of the Ring

This section has been removed from this parent article and snythesised into the material to be found in the article Der Ring des Nibelungen: Composition of the text. Please make future edits on this topic to the daughter article.--Dogbertd 16:05, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Orchestration

I remember seeing a photo of Siegfried Wagner at Bayreuth with seven harpists for the Ring (the seventh for use in emergencies!). It's been a while since I looked at the full score. Does anybody know the exact details of the harps in the score (I know for certain that they appear in Siegfried and Gotterdammerung)?

There are six harps at the end of Rheingold, when the Rheinmaidens are complainign about the corruption in the upper world. 136.148.1.142 22:35, 26 March 2007 (UTC) Peter

Redemption Through Love/Glorification of Brunnhilde

I think the discussion of the musical ending should include a mention that Wagner called the so-called Redemption Through Love motif, the Glorification of Brunnhilde, it appearing first when Sieglinde praises her. Adorno's argument is then shown to be crass as what Wagner is doing is highlighting her significance above Wotan and Siegfried both of whose music ends before hers. 136.148.1.142 22:33, 26 March 2007 (UTC) Peter Cohen

Right, and note that it is a variation on the "Brünnhilde as woman" motif, which in turn is a variation on the Valkyries motif. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.214.59.212 (talk) 22:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Links to YouTube?

Would you consider links to YouTube videos of the Operas appropiate for this article. GreaterWikiholic 02:26, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

It really depends if the copyright question has been addressed, see Wikipedia:Copyrights#Linking_to_copyrighted_works —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Alexs letterbox (talk • contribs) 02:40, 22 April 2007 (UTC).

So does YouTube have any video of pre-1911 performances? [wink]
--Jerzy•t 04:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Redirect list

In light of the variety of plausible misspellings, i'm listing the current Rdrs, in some case with notes.

Bad titles (bypassing urgent)

• Ring of the Nibelungs::used-by [Mis-translation due to misconstruing grammar]
• The Ring of the Nibelungen::used-by
• Der Ring des Niebelungen::used-by [My 9-month-old rdr, presently un-breaks 4 rdlks]

Bad titles (but as of 04:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC), unused in main namespace)

• The ring of the Nibelungs::used-by [Mis-translation due to misconstruing grammar]
• The Ring of Nibelungen::used-by
• Ring of the Nibelungen::used-by
• The Ring of the Niebelung::used-by

Good titles

• The Ring of the Nibelung [English standard title; Good translation]]
• The Ring Cycle [accurate & recognized description]
• Ring Cycle
• Wagner's Ring [recognized description, but may deserve a Dab, for sake of at least a few Web uses as short title for either Wagner's Ring and its Symbols by Donington (amusing: German title is Richard Wagners „Ring des Nibelungen“ und seine Symbole) or J. K. Holman's Wagner's Ring : a listener's companion & concordance.]
• The Nibelung's Ring
• The Nibelung’s Ring::used-by [smart quote? If so, probably needs bypassing]
• Ring of the Nibelung
• Ring des Nibelungen
• Wagner's Ring Cycle
• Ring des Niebelungen

Mis-cased titles (probably harmless if piped reasonably)

• Ring cycle::used-by
• Der Ring Des Nibelungen::used-by
• Ring of the nibelung::used-by

IMO, further Rdrs are needed for the combinations of

• both in English and German,
• with or w/o the initial definite article,
• for

  the standard spelling Nibelung,

  (my own favored) misspelling w/ ..ie.. in place of the ..i.., and

  Shaw's English variant of The Perfect Wagnerite, omitting the ..e.. to produce "Niblung".

(They total 12 in number; some are extent but i think most are absent.) --Jerzy•t 04:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Meaning of "Nibelung"

Wagner's use of "Nibelung" for Alberich is an entirely new one, not supported by his sources, so far as I am aware. The Nibelungs were, in fact, the people called "Gibichungs" in Wagner's opera - the royal line of Burgundian kings of Worms. For some reason, Wagner decided to change this around, and it's worth discussing this in the title section. john k 13:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay, looking at the Nibelung article, I see that there were some early sources which applied the term to the Dwarfs, but that most modern scholars believe that the original usage was for the Burgundians. But this should be mentioned here, no? john k 14:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Nibelungenlied calls the Nibelungen a (dwarven) people/kingdom in the Far North (but not Iceland, since that is where Brunhilde is dwelling, and Sifrit travels by boat from Iceland to N-Land) maybe at the North Pole, the Faroer or in North Sweden... well, anyway, Sifrit pwned them and made them vassals, and they guard the Nibelungenhort. The hort passes to Kriemhild and Hagen uh.. appropriates it - anyway, it is in Burgund now, and in part 2 the Burgundians, therefore, are now called Nibelungen. - All these sagas differ but the Nibelungenlied is not unimportant since it is the main version of the myth for Germans. --92.78.31.25 (talk) 14:17, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

JRR Tolkien

On the 'RING OF THE NIBELUNGS' movie website, it says that J.R.R. Tolkien had said that "the Nibelung saga was an inspiration for his Lord of the Rings trilogy." Yet, this Wiki page had said that Tolkien had denied this. Which one can we believe? Wiki, or the official ROTN website? Sir Sanjuro 19:04, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

This article's assertion regarding Tolkien is not sourced, so it needs a citation added, or it should be removed. Many of the other unsourced statements in the article need to be tied to their presumed sources in the references given. --Blainster 17:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Tolkein might well have said that the "nibelung saga" was one of his inspirations for LOTR, however the comment in this article refers to the erroneous belief that Wagner's Ring cycle (something entirely different) was an inspiration for LOTR. I'll try to add that reference when I remember.--Dogbertd 11:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it is controversial to say that the Nibelung traditions in Nibelungenlied and in the Poetic Eddas were an important inspiration for Tolkien. However, once when Tolkien was faced with the allegation of plagiarizing Wagner, he responded with something like "the ring is round and there the similarity ends". We need to separate between the Nibelung tradition, which most assuredly was a major inspiration, and Wagner, which he denied as inspiration.--Berig 11:50, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added the requested reference, and also provided a link to the relevant section of The Lord of the Rings.--Dogbertd 12:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

4 channel and surround sound

Were any of the recordings made during the 1970s done in quadraphonic or 4 channel sound? Which ones are available in some other type of surround sound format? --Blainster 17:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

ROH ring circle 2007

Hi guys. At the moment in Covent gardens a very successful performance is running. I saw the first circle (2,,5,7, and 9 of october 07) and I was thrilled. I m trying to add a note for the performance but i ended up people talking about vandalism???? Could someone else write something about this production please in a way that it will not end up in a dispute - as i am not an expert in writing critics- because really your contemorary performances part is wrong absolutely inaccurate and incomplete as it doen t include this very important circle in covent gardens, and who knows what else. Thanks. Italiotis 21:36, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

You changed "Wagner wrote the libretto" to "Wagner wrote the alphabet" in that edit. Hence the vandalism fix tag. Tomixdf 07:21, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Sorry Tomixdf i did not made this change. Of course that was a serious vandalism from whoever did that and i completely agree with you. But it wasn t me.

I was just reffering to the the reference regarding covent gardens. I will reinclude a simple reference for that. Thanks a lotItaliotis 08:24, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I've cleaned up the entry a bit. Then again, it is rather pointless to have a large list of contemporary performances of the ring in the article. IMO a performance should only be added if it is in any way special or revealing. In what way is that the case for the Covent Garden performance? Tomixdf 11:36, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The title of this section is notable contemporary productions. I've seen quite a lot of this one, and don't really see what is notable about it - unless you count Bryn Terfel's first Wotan or Pappano's first Ring.--Dogbertd 13:32, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this one is nothing special and I don't really see how it is distinguished from other ROH productions such as the Hotter one in the 60s, either of the Friedrich ones in the 70s and 80s or the one in the 90s whose producer I forget. Of more interest may be the fact that the same producer did a Ring in Japan.

I think we might benefit from a bit of thought about the section as a whole. A paragraph on Bayreuth is appropriate, but it might do with a mention of how oftne they change productions. Then we can mention how large companies (ROH, the Met, Vienna, presumably) tend to have a production in their repertoire all the time and turn over stagings at whatever rate and contrast this with how smaller companies (Canadian Opera, Chicago) tend to reserve productions for special occassions and also a mention how smaller houses in Germany tend to regard staging a Ring as a more normal thing to do than those in other countries. And we need references.--Peter cohen 13:51, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Opera Vs. Music-Drama

The article begins by describing Wagner's works as "a cycle of... music dramas", and then, in the next sentence, refers to them as "operas". Syntactically, this suggests that the terms "Music-Drama and "Opera" are synonymous. Most Wagnerians would take issue with the blurring of that distinction. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.115.153.68 (talk) 22:16, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps, but are these articles intended for Wagnerians only, or for the general public, who will look upon all of these works as operas? I think the more general term "opera" is going to be more widely understood. --Kyoko 22:23, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree -- one or the other should be put into a parenthetical, without equating them. The uninitiated reader who types "ring cycle" into wikipedia after watching bugs bunny wants to know within the first sentence that these are operas. Fireplace (talk) 01:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Setting

Does anyone know around what years the events occur in the cycle? I was thinking maybe early 11th century. Any ideas?

The characters who have historic basis lived during the Age of Migrations.--Berig (talk) 12:29, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

The Ring begins in "mythical time" with no human characters appearing in Das Rheingold. Later the cycle is base on usch sources as Nibelungenlied which appears to be set in the 5th or 6th centuries.--Peter cohen (talk) 13:44, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Few major or minor chords??

I have corrected the number of Double Basses in the Ring from 12 to 8 (12 Basses, that would sound like mud! - obviously a typo and nevertheless not found in the score) but being new to Wikipedia I'm not certain on how to rewrite the bit about the scarcity of triads. To say that simple major or minor (i.e. consonant) chords are rare in the Ring is misleading as they can be found on practically every single page. There is harmonic suspension and a great deal of chromaticism, but Wagner's music in an extension of tonal practices and can still be analyzed using conventional methods although I will admit that parts of Tristan are slipperier. The beginning of Rheingold is nothing but a huge Eflat chord that goes on for over 4 minutes. There are places where he extends 7th chords for an awful long time to create tension, but there is no specific avoidance or for that matter rarity in his use of major or minor triads Batonpower (talk) 00:53, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

In the end I was a big boy and I rewrote the passage. Batonpower (talk) 22:43, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. In the longer term, we need to find a proper source to reference this to. I guess you might be a conductor and able to understand a lot of this stuff yourself. But, Wikipedia policy says that we should rely on published reliable sources rather than the understandings of contributors themselves, whatever their expertise.--Peter cohen (talk) 12:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Good to know, but I bet the original sentence did not come from a published source in the first place - it was way too naive. Anyway, I'll see what I can find, but it could be difficult: it's a bit like finding a reference saying that Pandas are never pink. I'll give it my best shot. Batonpower (talk) 17:27, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

You're probably right there. I do intend to work further on improving the Ring articles myself one day using sources such as the ENO opera guides and Cooke's I saw the World End but having extra people with a musical education involved rather than just intelligent laymen such as I claim to be will both provide a better understanding of what the sources are getting at and hopefully a knowledge of a wider range of literature.--Peter cohen (talk) 17:57, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Title of the article

I've never visited this page before, and I was very surprised to see it has the German title. In English it's virtually never referred to by that name, except in pedagogical and reference works; and even there, it might be "Der Ring ..." in a list of Wagner's works with all their formal names, but it'd be "The Ring ..." in the text of an article. As far as the English-speaking music-attending and CD-listening public is concerned, it's known by an English name (either "The Ring of the Nibelung", or just "The Ring", or "the Ring Cycle"); and this is an article written for English speakers. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:41, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

• This is a fair point, and we should probably debate it, however the WP Opera project is clear on this (see[[2]])

"most operas are performed in English-speaking countries under their original names (e.g. Così fan tutte and Der Freischütz) and English titles for them should not be invented."

I would argue that Der Ring is most often performed in German under the German title. In fact performances of the The Ring are sufficiently rare as to merit comment - notably the Goodall performances at the ENO.--Dogbertd (talk) 08:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

The bigger picture is the whole context in which your quote appears:

• The standard practice is to use English titles of operas for article names and in articles when it is common convention (e.g. The Marriage of Figaro. The Magic Flute, The Barber of Seville). This reflects the Wikipedia convention [to] use English in titles when possible. Nevertheless (and here's where your quote begins) most operas are performed in English-speaking countries under their original names (e.g. Così fan tutte and Der Freischütz) and English titles for them should not be invented. (my bolding)

The Ring's a special case in that it is not in itself an opera but a cycle of operas. Nevertheless, I think we should deal with it as if it were an opera. I'd argue that it's common convention to refer to the Ring by an English name, although it's probably just as conventional to refer to the individual operas by their German names. I'd never really focussed on this dual approach before, but that seems to be my experience. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I think the common practice is to refer to it by an abbreviated name The Ring, Ring Cycle etc. I don't come across the full English translation The Ring of the Nibelung very often and we should not title the article by an abbreviation. (We don't call opera articles Figaro, Butterfly or Boris. The abbreviations themselves don't have to be assumed to be translated. Ring is a word in both languages and the can be used with untranslated titles such as The Oresteia. I would kep the German title for the main article and redirects for the rest.

I want to add Mark Twain's and Tolstoy's criticisms

...do I make a new section or take one from the ones furnished? --VKokielov (talk) 14:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

• Now that you mention it, we don't have a section on contemporary and subsequent reactions to Der Ring, so why don't you start a new section?--Dogbertd (talk) 19:28, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Where to put a leitmotif section?

I want to add a section on the various leitmotifs in Der Ring, based on the information and examples provided in the New Grove (I will typeset public domain images of the themes myself using lilypond). Would these work best in this article, or should I put them in the individual opera articles? On the one hand, many of the motifs are used in more than one opera, but on the other hand, the plot points/characters being referred to might be clearer if the information is provided in the relevant opera(s) article(s). JeanneShade (talk) 01:54, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

• That's a tricky one. The article is already pretty long. I would suggest making a new article on the Leitmotifs used in Der Ring and reference it in this article. This would allow you to have one or two of the most important motifs in this article and a more extensive illustration is the daughter article where you could detail which motifs are common to the entire cycle and which only occur in individual operas. Just my suggestion.--Dogbertd (talk) 08:35, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

A Leitmotif list article is something I've thought of as needed for a long time. I'm glad you're interested in starting on it. Given various sources use different names, numbering systems a table form might be useful.--Peter cohen (talk) 11:56, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not qualified in the topic, but leitmotifs are so crucial to what the Ring is about ... anybody up to it? 178.42.74.38 (talk) 20:14, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Valkyrie4.jpg

The image Image:Valkyrie4.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --04:16, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Adelaide 2004 not the first Australian production

This was widely touted as the first time the Ring had ever been staged in Australia, with huge hype. But it wasn't the first. According to Erik Irvin's Dictionary of the Australian Theatre 1788-1914, the Ring was performed in Her Majesty's Theatre in Melbourne in August 1913. The dates are:

• Das Rheingold: 19 August
• Die Walkure: 22 August
• Siegfried: 25 August
• Gotterdammerung: 29 August.

He gives no details of the performers, orchestra, conductor etc. Is there any reason why these performances shouldn't supplant Adelaide's claim? -- JackofOz (talk) 01:26, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Instrumentation

The Instrumentation section needs quite a lot of work, so I'll start. There are two initial problems that must be addressed. First, each of the four operas requires different instrumentation, so each of the four Wiki articles should have a separate section for that opera's instrumentation. Second, as currently written (i.e. before my edit), the section confuses the number of instruments with the number of musicians (perhaps because it carries over the confusion from the Dover edition). I'll begin to correct these problems. Oconnell usa (talk) 18:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Glockenspiel. A previous edition shows that the Ring operas include the Glockenspiel. The Glockenspiel is used in Siegfried and Gotterdammerun. Therefore, this has been clarified. Oconnell usa (talk) 03:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

There is a prominent passage for glockenspiel in Gotterdammerung during the 'Siegfried's Rhine Journey' segment of the Prologue. In addition the article needs to have a separate note about the way a glockenspiel is included in place of the 'bird's voice' in the concert extract version of the 'Forest Murmurs'. Pfistermeister (talk) 13:03, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks Pfistermeister. Please post more info about the request for a "separate note about the way a glockenspiel is included in place of the 'bird's voice' in the concert extract version of the 'Forest Murmurs'" -- which concert version? Oconnell usa (talk) 15:46, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thunder Machine. Neither Wagner's score nor the Dover score includes a specific reference to the use of an instrument called the "thunder machine". However, since it is used in orchestras today to produce the sound which Wagner intended (see his quote in the footnote), it is included as an instruemnt here. Oconnell usa (talk) 20:35, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Tenor Drum. The earlier edit included the tenor drum as an instrument in the Ring but did not cite which opera (or, for that matter, which score). The tenor drum is used in Gotterdammerung, so this has been clarified. Oconnell usa (talk) 03:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Wagner Tubas. See the Wiki article on Wagner tubas for information on the tenor and bass versions, including their sizes (B-flat in F). Oconnell usa (talk) 21:10, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

An Opera-L contributor pointed out that, despite the fact that modern Wagner tubas play both the A-natural and the B-flat parts, Wagner's score requires all four Wagner tubas, becasue all four play at the same time. See, for example, the opening bars of Rheingold, Scene 2 (page 84 of the Dover Score).

Tenor-Bass Trombones. These now-obsolete instruments have been replaced by Bass Trombones, as is clarified in the footnote and the cited Wiki articles. Oconnell usa (talk) 21:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Clarinets. As described in the Wiki artilce, Wagner's score requires a total of 6 clarinets: three A-natural clarinets and three B-flat clarinets; they are played by a total of 3 musicians. Oconnell usa (talk) 22:02, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Bass Clarinets. As described in the Wiki article at [3], "Music is occasionally encountered written for the bass clarinet in A, e.g. in Wagner operas . . . . Very few, if any, modern players own a bass clarinet in A; these parts are therefore played on the B♭ instrument, transposing them down a semitone." Oconnell usa (talk) 22:07, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Steerhorns. The steerhorns (also called "Wagner steerhorns", "stierhorns", cowhorns, bullhorns, etc.) are instruments used in Walkure and Gotterdammerung. A new Wiki article should be written for this instrument. Oconnell usa (talk) 00:45, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The instruments for all three operas have been added and, as of now, are in the process of being finally edited, but more work will be required. Oconnell usa (talk) 03:38, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

I moved the Contrabass Tuba to the bottom of the brass section in each list. I expect this is consistent with all of the scores although I haven’t actually checked. The score order for Wagner tubas is a more complex issue, very clearly explained near the bottom of the Wagner tuba article, and I agree with listing them below the Horns and above the Trumpets here. Also, separating them from the Contrabass Tuba helps emphasize the difference between one kind of “tuba” and the other. MJ (t • c) 04:48, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

In all honesty I'd prefer that the instrumentation section reflects the players needed for the work as opposed to the instruments required. I think this is pretty common practice as far as Wikipedia instrumentation sections are concerned, since listing the number of instruments gives a false impression of the size of the orchestra. For example, listing 3 clarinets in B-flat, 3 clarinets in A, bass clarinet in B-flat and bass clarinet in A gives a casual reader the impression that the work calls for 8 clarinettists as opposed to the 4 actually needed. Doublings should also be placed in the article as opposed to the extensive footnotes, many of which I view as unnecessary.

I also don't see the purpose of listing the entire orchestration for all four operas when it's so similar across the board. An idea I had was to list a "core instrumentation" of instruments used by all four operas, then listing how the specific operas differ (e.g. Rheingold adds these instruments, Walkure has these etc.)

I'd be willing to make these changes myself, but I want your input first. TrumpetMan202 (talk) 04:05, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I agree fully. I’d like to see it exactly as you describe. MJ (t • c) 04:24, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

The edit I attempted to make was reverted, claiming not to see any discussion for this on the talk page. I don't want this to turn into an edit war, so these are my reasons why the current instrumentation section should be overhauled.

The current instrumentation section is far too verbose and contains redundant information which dominates the entire article. In my mind it simply does not make sense to list the individual instrumentation for each opera when it so similar for all of them. My edit listed the core instrumentation for all four works as well as additions made by each opera. It presented the same information in a much more compact format.

Another problem with the section is that it lists the number of instruments needed as opposed to the number of players. I disagree with this for the reasons given in my comment above. An orchestra would be more concerned with how many players they would have to hire as opposed to how many instruments they would be playing.

Finally, many of the extensive footnotes in this section are unnecessary. The purpose of this page is to list the players needed for the work, not to give a history of each instrument in the context of the opera. Much of the information contained in the footnotes, such as the doublings, can be included in the article itself.

There's a reason why my edit cut out so much. A good deal of this information is redundant and takes up space. For now, I am uncertain whether or not to revert to my former edit or to edit the page again to attempt to retain as much information of the original poster as needed. TrumpetMan202 (talk) 15:25, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Just made another edit, this time retaining a good deal of the original instrumentation section. Let's hope it sticks TrumpetMan202 (talk) 16:33, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the explanation. I just saw a massive chunk of information (14,000 bytes) was removed without discussion, so discussion to gain a consensus should be proceeded. And I can agree with your reasoning for the removal, so I don't think we have any unnecessary edit warring onward.--Caspian blue 16:46, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Recordings

The entire section on Recordings must be re-written and edited for accuracy and clarity. It must be reorganized with subsections on audio recordings, video recordings and (because they are so new) Blu-Ray DVDs. The cite for DVD and Blu-ray recordings is http://stridonolassu.googlepages.com/ Oconnell usa (talk) 16:16, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Are there any Ring cycles on Blu-Ray? Your citation only mentions DVD, which are already discussed in the article.--Dogbertd (talk) 19:10, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there is one Ring cycle on Blu-ray now available. All Blu-ray DVDs of Wagner (and other opera composers) are listed on the cited website. Go there, look in the right column under "Other", "Opera on Blu-ray". Then look down the list (sorted by composer). The sole Ring cycle Blu-ray is directed by Michael Schulz, conducted by Carl St. Clair, Deutsches Nationaltheater Weimar, 2008 (Arthaus Musik). Oconnell usa (talk) 19:36, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Singular or plural?

The composer himself described the work as 1 music drama, not 4. Peter jackson (talk) 15:25, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Der Ring des Nibelungen references in a video game - worth including?

In the video game "Sakura Taisen 2" (currently only available in Japan), a character named Reni Milchstraße can perform several different special attacks while in battle. Each of these attacks are named after the operas in "Der Ring des Nibelungen" (Das Rheingold, Die Walküre, Sigfried, Götterdämmerung). Is this worth including in the "Parodies and Popular Culture" section? Kero9x (talk) 18:27, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the answer to your question is no. A major work of art such as the Ring are referenced in thousands of other works. This means that peripheral references such as the above need to be excluded or the section becomes so unwieldy as to be unreadable. It's not a major fact about the influence of the Ring, it might be worth a mention whenever an article on the game is written. Similarly it might be worth a mention if an article were written on the Ring's influence on popular culture. Thanks for asking, which a lot of people don't bother to do.--Peter cohen (talk) 15:21, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Incorrect Grammar - Please correct

I have never edited anything here, but the constantly incorrect grammar in "Der Ring der Nibelungen" prompted me to try. However I have no idea how to go about it. Therefore I just prepared one article on my user page.

This is the Problem:

== The correct version is "Der Ring der Nibelungen" ==

Der - article, nominative masculine, singular

Ring - noun, nominative masculine, singular

der - article, genitive feminine, plural

Nibelungen, noun, feminine, plural

"des" Nibelungen would mean that the Nibelungen is singular (which it isn't) and masculine or neutral, which it isn't either.

Can anybody help in how to edit the many articles in Wikipedia that refer to the Nibelungen incorrectly as "des"? I am surprised that none of the German contributors have picked that up.

Yes I am German :) Gretelchen (talk) 01:34, 6 February 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Gretelchen (talk • contribs)

The grammatical logic of your point may seem indisputable, but the German language Wikipedia (which is, of course, written and edited by German-speakers) disagrees with you, and uses "des Nibelungen" not "der", which doesn't help your case. I suggest you take a look at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diskussion:Der_Ring_des_Nibelungen where this is the first topic discussed.

My German is a little rusty, to say the least, but the argument as I understand it is this: Wagner decided, for reasons known only to himself, to treat the word "Nibelungen" in the title as a singular (referring to Alberich). And, grammatically unsound though that may be, it's his work, and it is not the place of Wikipedia editors to overrule him. Grubstreet (talk) 09:17, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

You might also visit www.bayreuther-festspiele.de and note that the Bayreuth Festival (and surely no one is more of a Wagner specialist) announced the 14-disc box set of their 2008 performances as "Der Ring des Nibelungen auf CD". Grubstreet (talk) 12:03, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

The reasoning is correct, however des is Gen sg. The Nibelung is Alberich I suppose. --92.78.31.25 (talk) 14:20, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Add something about the upcoming Met production?

Hi, It might be good to add something about the upcoming Met production.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/19/arts/music/19ring.html?_r=1&ref=music —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beagley (talk • contribs) 18:04, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Unless there's something particularly noteworthy or earthshattering about this production, I don't see why it needs to be included in an encyclopedia article. Not every production is noteworthy, and unless you wanted to have (eg.) a new sub-page on "Met Productions of The Ring" I'm not sure how important this one will be.--Dogbertd (talk) 14:20, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Productions

There is so much rich material to be mined in the whole area of productions of the Ring - different ways of setting the cycle, in various places and times, the related costumes, conceptions, possible interpretations, etc. There is some material on this in the article, but pretty paltry considering what it could be. Consider how significant some of this stuff could be by Wikipedia standards - this is an encyclopedia that has an article on cooties, for crying out loud.178.42.74.38 (talk) 20:17, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

• That's joy of Wikipedia: you want a new section (or, better, a new article) on "Productions of Der Ring" then go ahead & write one!--Dogbertd (talk) 16:27, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Siegfried Funeral March and Finale

Does this sound file belong here? Do we need a brass band version? Also what is the correct title for this music? The sound file was withdrwan at FSC but has now been resubmitted, see here. --Kleinzach 07:31, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

• Does this sound file belong here? :- It depends whether you think something is better than nothing. Personally I don't like the brass band setting, since I wouldn't like a casual reader to think that this was how the opera sounds. What I'd really like to see is more excerpts from the actual opera itself, but here we run into the difficulty of copyright protection, which applies to just about any recording after the cylinder era, it seems. The German wikipedia has (in Parsifal at least) excepts from the 1951 Knappertsbusch, which is out of copyright in Europe. I'd be happy to upload excerpts from Knappertsbusch's Gotterdammerung also from 1951, but this is still in copyright in the US.--Dogbertd (talk) 11:42, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

No it doesn't. It's not by Wagner, it's not from the opera, it misleads the listener. The article has links to extensive discographies, and the intersted reader can be trusted to find an online shop with sound samples. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:28, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Copyright Infringment Notice

Resolved: Copyvio wording removed. Darth Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 13:56, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

These two paragraphs are word-for-word lifts from the librettos of Decca records recording of the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra, conducted by Georg Solti in 1959 and reissued by Time-Life Records in 1972. For Shame!

"History provides few examples of artistic purpose so consistently followed as that which produced Wagner's tetralogy Der Ring des Nibelungen. As early as the 1840s, Wagner began to search Teutonic and Norse mythology for material for his epic, and it was not until the end of 1874 that the last bar of Götterdämmerung (Twilight of the Gods) was scored. Wagner's first plan was to compose one opera only, to be called Siegfried's Death, and for this he wrote the poem, which follows roughly the same course as that of the present Götterdämmerung, in 1848. It soon became obvious, however, that so much preliminary explanation would be necessary if the events of Siegfried's Death were to be clear to the spectator that some kind of introductory drama was desirable. Thus Wagner planned a second work, to precede Siegfried's Death and to be called Young Siegfried, and then he added two others, so that the project eventually embraced the whole tetralogy of the Ring.

Wagner did not work exclusively on the Ring during the thirty-odd years between its original conception and its completion. The poems of the four operas were written in the late 1840s and early 1850s; the music for Das Rheingold was composed in 1853–54, that for Die Walküre in 1854–56; and in 1856–57 Wagner composed, though he did not score, the first two acts of Siegfried; but at this point he laid down his pen, as far as the Ring was concerned, for twelve years, producing in the meantime Tristan und Isolde and Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg. In 1869, however, he took up work on the Ring again, his enthusiasm and inspiration still strong, and in the years 1869–74 completed Siegfried and created the finale to the tetralogy, Götterdämmerung. Das Rheingold was first performed at Munich on 22 September 1869. Its first performance as part of the complete Ring cycle took place at the Bayreuth Festspielhaus on 13 August 1876."

Infobroker (talk) 04:40, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Looks like this is the edit that added it all. Fenyx4 (talk) 13:51, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

"Adaptations, parodies and use in popular culture" section

This section is entirely unreferenced, thus unverifiable. Moreover it is completely irrelevant and should be removed completely. 81.83.134.227 (talk) 21:35, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Well, why don't you be bold and remove it? --GuillaumeTell 23:32, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Done. 94.226.158.25 (talk) 14:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Modern translation linked to

At least not 404, but it is really.. Most of the meaning is there, but it has not, to my eye, much connection with Wagner's poetry or language. Something analogous to Four score and twenty years ago ... becomes January 4th, 1xyz ... --92.78.31.25 (talk) 14:23, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Notable Productions

Some of these "notable" productions aren't so notable (eg, Seattle Opera, Washington National, Canada's). And if they are, no reason is given for their notability. I will be deleting them. 108.35.36.227 (talk) 05:16, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

I think that's unreasonable. Whether you think the productions you mention are less notable than others is clearly a personal point of view, and I'm sure reliable sources can be found which support their notability. So, I think leaving them does less harm than removing them. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:13, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

No, it is not a "personal view". If it is the same staging of the Ring as has been done dozens if not hundreds of times, then it is not notable. First production in Russia -- notable. Bayreuth -- notable. Those 3 that I mentioned are clearly not notable by just reading the article. Angry bee (talk) 00:43, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

In fact, the whole section is unreferenced. It would be good if someone (not me!) spent some time on this. --GuillaumeTell 11:37, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

Ah, the Template:refimprove additions in these 2 edits. The editor who added these tags has been queried at least three times about the appropriateness of his tagging, and I agree in this case, too. The blanket tag for the "Music" section, which in large parts only describes the work or reads the score and provides two references for less obvious statements, are unnecessary. This applies even more to the section we're discussing here ("Notable modern productions"), which, as far as I can see, contains no assertions likely to be challenged. The Wikipedia policy Wikipedia:Verifiability says: "you do not need to attribute everything." -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:52, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

The implicit assertion however is that thy are 'notable'. If nothing is provided (referenced or unreferenced) to support this assertion, then deletion is justifiable at an editor's discretion.--Smerus (talk) 15:08, 11 December 2011 (UTC)