Talk:Derren Brown

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neuro-linguistic programming[edit]

Smk65536 has an issue with this article discussing claims that Brown uses neuro-linguistic programming, on the grounds that it is "psuedo-science". This content should remain because;

  • Some people have claimed he uses NLP, some still do.
  • Brown considers the claims notable enough to directly addressed them and to deny them.
  • This is well sourced in the article.

Whether NLP is "psudedo-science" or not is irrelevant. What is relevant is the claims and Brown's response to them. This is not in anyway giving NLP any credence, the article offers no opinion on it either way. If anything, Brown's denial suggests he discounts it as much as anyone else. But that is for the reader to decide, the article shouldn't be leading them one way or another. That it is "psudedo-science" matters not a jot, and is not a reason for removing all mention of it. Wikipedia does not censor discussion of subjects to only being about topics that are acceptable science.

Smk65536 own personal opinion of NLP is totally irrelevant. Wikipedia is not here for editors to offer their own opinions and either remove, or modify, discussion of subjects that they disagree with. So adding POV disparaging adjectives to NLP is equally not appropriate. The neuro-linguistic programming discusses its pros and cons neutrally, so there is no reason for this article to be taking a position on it.

Thanks. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 22:37, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

You're not reading the article correctly, the article asserts NLP can be used, and this takes a position on it. What I did was to state more clearly that NLP is a psuedo-science, to balance the article out. If that is an opinion, then are you saying that the NLP article is a big op ed piece too? 06:49, 11 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Smk65536 (talkcontribs)
No, I am saying that the NLP article is the place to define what it is, not here. Could you indicate where exactly the article asserts that NLP can be used? Thanks. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:12, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
"uses NLP" indicates this. Compare this to "uses his clairvoyant powers". Smk65536 (talk) 17:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Unrelatedly, "Several authors have claimed that Brown uses NLP" could use a better source. It's currently sourced to an editorial in the Journal of Database Marketing & Customer Strategy Management apparently summarising this paper (which has one sentence about Brown - "Derren Brown succeeded in cueing a leading creative team (director and copywriter) to produce a campaign that he had already previously created through a series of low attention stimuli." - and does not at first glance appear to mention NLP at all) to say that NLP is "used, to some effect, by the popular UK illusionist Derren Brown". This is not "several authors", and seems rather a weak source. Does Brown's book which we're using as a source for the rebuttal say who he's rebutting? --McGeddon (talk) 22:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

  • On Brown's website he says "I have never claimed to use NLP to achieve my ‘tricks’. On the contrary, I have written very critically about it in Tricks of the Mind.
  • "It turns out he doesn’t think much of NLP." - from this interview
  • Interview with founder of NLP talks of it "influencing" Brown.
  • "Illusionist Derren Brown is also said to use elements of NLP" from same article.
  • There are simply too many mentions of NLP in relation to Brown to list here. Google offers thousand like this, or this or here. It is a very common belief that Brown uses it.
What's probably best is that the article focusses more on Brown's rejection of NLP, rather than worrying who says he uses it. --Escape Orbit (Talk) 20:12, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

Mention in Dr Who?[edit]

In the 50th Dr special "Day of the Doctor" the members of UNIT mention explaining away something the Dr does as "Derren Brown" and it's implied they've used him as cover for alien activity in the past. Would this be appropriate to add to a "pop culture" section? — Preceding unsigned comment added by SLEPhoto (talkcontribs) 04:15, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't usually like to do this since I'm still quite new and don't really have much authority here, but it doesn't seem like anyone else is going to answer your question.

I found this link about "In popular culture" sections. It says this:

When trying to decide if a pop culture reference is appropriate to an article, ask yourself the following:

1. Has the subject acknowledged the existence of the reference?
2. Have multiple reliable sources pointed out the reference?
3. Did any real-world event occur because of the cultural element covered by the reference?

For #1, Derren Brown did tweet about it (I'm not quite sure how to link to just one tweet but the page is here - scroll down to 27 Nov).

For #2, a quick Google search along the lines of "Derren Brown Doctor Who" leads to several relevant articles including:

Personally, I think you should go ahead and add it. Would anyone else like to weigh in?

And on a related point, if a "pop culture"-style section is going to be made, would there be anything else anyone would like to add? Just one quick mention in a Doctor Who episode might make the section seem a bit sparse. Bilorv (talk) 14:11, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

As it stands I think this qualifies as trivia. It's a passing joke reference in a TV fiction. Not that significant to either the life or career of Brown. If we were to add this then we may as well start a list of other joke references to Brown, which would all be trivia. You'll note that the essay you linked to explains that "In Popular Culture" sections should be about the article subject's impact on popular culture. It is not just an excuse to list meaningless trivia about when and where they have been mentioned elsewhere. So if you want to add this, it would be great if you started out the section on that basis. What has Brown's impact been on popular culture? Is he often mentioned in relation to magic/the unexplained? --Escape Orbit (Talk) 18:21, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

In regards to the relevant threshold being "IMPACT on popular culture," I'll note that someone else added his brief appearance in the third season opener of "Sherlock" in basically the same capacity his name was used in the Dr. Who episode, which is to explain an impossible trick or occurrence. If this also is happening in other BBC shows then clearly it's a cultural impact issue. JamesG5 (talk) 16:16, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Did Derren Brown actually appear in Dr Who? As I understand it he didn't, where he actually did appear in Sherlock, so it's not the same at all. --AussieLegend () 16:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
No, he didn't appear in Dr. Who. But that's not my point, I wasn't saying the mention there plus the Sherlock cameo would be enough. I'm saying if he becomes the "go to" name for any BBC show any time they need to explain something bizarre then that would show relevant impact on pop culture. I am in the US, so I get limited exposure to BBC programming, I posted that as a "is this happening?" query.  :-) JamesG5 (talk) 05:16, 14 January 2014 (UTC)
Although potentially trivial, Derren Brown's appearance (and yes, an appearance, not just a mention) on 8 Out of 10 Cats Does Deal or No Deal was deemed significant enough to be documented on the 8 Out of 10 Cats page. I don't know how much of a part Derren Brown played in Sherlock, but it could potentially be something to mention if we are making a proper "Impact on Popular Culture" section. (The best video of Derren Brown's appearance I could find was this video, unless you want to watch it on 4oD - if I remember correctly, it's right at the start. He also appeared in the advert for the episode, although I can't seem to find a video of that at all.) Bilorv (talk) 19:06, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
"Mentioned briefly in the Dr. who 50th anniversary special, The Day of the Doctor, as a cover for the blatant flying of a police box over London. Mulkern, Patrick (24 November 2013). "A Day in the life of Doctor Who: A 50th anniversary review". Radio Times. Retrieved 17 January 2014. " (with reference tags around the citation) - This text was removed by AussieLegend from the "Other Appearances" section on the grounds that "A "mention" is not an "appearance"." The way I see it, the section title could be changed ("Impact on Popular Culture" or something along those lines), or the content could remain removed. But it's a fairly large impact (sure, it's just a minor reference, but it was from a massively important episode broadcast live in 94 countries), and it's sourced, so I would personally recommend that it stayed. Bilorv (talk) 17:42, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
A mere mention is non-notable trivia. Perhaps a filmography table would be more appropriate. --AussieLegend () 17:53, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't have strong feelings either way but just wanted to apologies for not checking this page before accepting that edit, I should have done. Samwalton9 (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2014 (UTC)