Talk:Deuterocanonical books

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Deuterocanonical means SecondCanonical - The opposite of what catholics mean. Rename Article?[edit]

The word deuterocanonical is from Greek deuteros meaning second. It means second canon. Catholics claim that the christian canon included the deuterocanonical books even before the Protestant Reformation. That they are in the original canon, and that Martin Luther just removed them in the Reformation.
Are they sure they want to use this word when it's a tricky way of saying the canon Catholics tacked on later?
The title deuterocanon was probably either coin by Protestants or ignorant Catholics.
Perhaps when people type in deuterocanonical it should just be a redirection to this article. The article should be renamed Catholic Canon not Included in Protestant Canon? 74.78.201.42 (talk) 20:29, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
No, that rename is not acceptable and is blatantly POV. It also ignores the fact that most of these books predate the Catholic Church, and the fact that they have always used by various Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox Churches. 'Deuterocanonical books', while it does indeed mean 'second canon', is the most common name that is actually used for them per our naming conventions. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 20:43, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
What about making the current title redirect to this content and call it Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox Canon not Included in Protestant Canon. I know it's long but it's less false. And we can accept canon that came before Christ if we want to. ThePepel-Eterni (talk) 20:51, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
No, I think that proposal also fails our naming conventions for going with the most widely used term. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 21:41, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Don't confuse the etymology of the term with its meaning. When the term was coined by Sixtus of Sienna it meant the books of the Old Testament considered canonical by the council of Trent but not considered canonical by Jews, which is the exact same thing it means today. You can criticize Sixtus' coinage all you want, but you can't say that the term hasn't been widely adopted.
I would caution against using the term anachronistically in an encyclopedia article, however common it may be on polemical websites. It is a post-Tridentine term that refers to a post-Tridentine concept. Rwflammang (talk) 23:02, 27 April 2012 (UTC)
Oppose to rename. The general reader of Wikipedia arrives to this Article because he had known about "deuterocanical" but he doesn't know what exactly it means. For this reason we shall leave this title. There are many other articles about the canon. This article to explain what is the term "deuterocanonical" used for, its history, and briefly the different POVs about the inclusion of such books.A ntv (talk) 12:28, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Article mis-states Eastern Orthodox position[edit]

I am led to believe that the following statement:

When Orthodox theologians use the term "deuterocanonical," it is important to note that the meaning is not identical to the Roman Catholic usage. In Orthodox Christianity, deuterocanonical means that a book is part of the corpus of the Old Testament (i.e. is read during the services) but has secondary authority. In other words, deutero (second) applies to authority or witnessing power, whereas in Roman Catholicism, deutero applies to chronology (the fact that these books were confirmed later), not to authority.

Is not one which many Eastern Orthodox would agree with. See Joel Kalvesmaki, "All Scripture Is Inspired by God: Thoughts on the Old Testament Canon", see also S. T. Kimbrough, Orthodox and Wesleyan Scriptural Understanding and Practice (2005), p. 23 (which we already cite.) I am left with the impression that Fr. Laurent's views are ones that many Eastern Orthodox would disagree with. I'm hesitant about relying on this very brief "Q&A"-style page for anything unless it can be confirmed by a more serious source. ZackMartin (talk) 19:57, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, this notion was also inserted in the lede paragraph of Eastern Orthodox Church in my memory, and I remember thinking that it was suspect at the time, but it was added with a reference I could not check: 'Pomazansky, Michael, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, pp. 33-34', so I permitted the edit to stand. The Kimbrough reference given directly afterwards refutes this idea neatly, though. Elizium23 (talk) 19:39, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Lutheranism, Luther Bible[edit]

Should there not be some discussion in the article of the Lutheran position on these writings? Luther's German translation of the Bible was the first to separate them from the books that are undisputedly canonical and assign them a special position in the book. He strongly recommended that they be read by Christians and therefore made sure that they were printed in the Bibles produced under his supervision. The current article says absolutely nothing about this pivotal Protestant reformer and the churchly tradition that grew out of his attempts to reform the Western church. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:8000:AC:42E:3EFD:8D43:D093 (talk) 17:15, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Luther merely used the same OT books that the Jews had canonized in the first or second century. He was not aware that a measurable amount of the New Testament is derived from these now-jettisoned books. We now have the Dead Sea Scrolls which confirm usage at that time. Luther was merely trying to "make a statement" that would exclude Rome. In retrospect, it was the wrong choice. This is why those books are included as "Apocrypha" in most Protestant Bibles - because they are really canonical from a Christian pov. Jesus and his apostles and later disciples used these books. From a Christian pov, they were wrongly excluded.
In particular, Maccabees was thrown out by the Jews because it clearly envisions an afterlife, which the Pharisees had agreed to, but after the subsequent contention with the Christian Church, wished to disavow. Student7 (talk) 21:04, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
Your first paragraph takes no account of the fact that in Luther's day, the canon he proposed was quite acceptable to many Roman Catholics, including at least one cardinal. Before the Council of Trent, many canon lists in standard Catholic texts excluded the deuterocanonical books. In the documents formalizing Luther's break with Rome, neither he nor any Catholic prelate mentioned his canon as an issue, because it wasn't one before Trent.
Your second paragraph is pure speculation. In fact, there are many apocrypha that were not included in the Jewish "canon", despite saying nothing about the afterlife disagreeable to Pharisees. The most likely reason for the exclusion of the deuterocanonical books from the Tanakh is that they were never widely considered critical outside of Hellenistic circles.
As for mentioning Martin Luther in the article, I have no objection in principle, but it is hard to see his relevance here since he died before the Tridentine canons were promulgated.
Rwflammang (talk) 02:56, 21 October 2014 (UTC)
It was always Seputuagint#Christian_use, right? Until the Reformation. Student7 (talk) 19:43, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Well, it's rather more complicated than that. It is certainly true that all Christian bibles before the reformation (and for quite a while after the reformation) included the books that would later be called (or were already called) "deuterocanonical". But although they were in the bibles, they were not always called "canonical". After all, a bible is not a canon, and a canon is not a bible. What they were almost universally called, whether considered canonical or not, is apocrypha. Rwflammang (talk) 22:26, 26 October 2014 (UTC)