Talk:Dies Irae

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Britten and the Gregorian Melody[edit]

I don't think it's correct to say that "The traditional Gregorian melody has also been used as a musical quotation" in the Britten War Requiem. The WR does indeed set the text to the poem, but unless my memory deceives me, does not use the hymn tune anywhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.48.63 (talk) 05:29, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

I was going to ask the same. I remember the War Requiem quite well and can't think of where the Gregorian melody was used. -- megA (talk) 12:48, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

POV[edit]

The first section smacks of POV and commentary all over the place. This article is in serious need of revision.Cshobar 01:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

'Celaeno' is a star, one of the Pleiades. Celano is the town in the Abruzzi associated with this poet. If any element were dropped, it would be the 'a'. ...as in encyclopaedia. Wetman 08:18, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've seen it both ways, but "Celaeno" seems to me to be the more frequently used, even if it is wrong. Perhaps it's because Celaeno is the spelling H. P. Lovecraft used. AAR, both are redirected to the same page. -- Smerdis of Tlön 14:34, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)

J or I???[edit]

Was the poem written with j's or with i's? In good latin should be "i", right?

See the article on J, which developed from I. Nowadays we are more classical in spelling. If a printed edition of Latin has Js it's a sign of age. Stroika 15:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC)


Conformed text to 1962 Missal text, as the article previously claimed, which meant putting in I's for Js, since that is what is printed in the 1962 Missal. I also rejoined the last two stanzas to the rest because it is a single composition in the Missal. (I also cleaned up the introduction and commentary on text. The Franciscan Archive text is already mentioned in the external links.)Echevalier (talk) 01:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Addendum: A scan of the editio typica of the 1962 Missale Romanum can be found [here] (warning: it's big). Echevalier (talk) 02:38, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Head-Boarding Monks[edit]

It's worth noting that the last two lines of Dies Irae are being chanted by the line of monks in "Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail" as they beat themselves in the heads with boards.

Cuncta stricte discussurus[edit]

I recently redid the translation, and I do have a question on cuncta stricte discussurus. The literal translation, to me, seems:

cuncta: nom/acc pl. n., everything/total/the sum/the whole

stricte: drawn tightly together

discussurus: future active participle. To shatter, strike down, destroy, etc.

Now, it could be that stricte has a 'strict' meaning I'm not familiar with (not that hard to imagine the link between 'bound tightly' and 'strict'), and discussurus could mean to be dealt with/finished/dismissed in a legal sense. Also, I just realized that discussurus is an active. My passive-ish translation might still best convey the sense, but I'd really like someone with more knowledge than I to investigate the usage of these terms.

You are right about the root meaning of discutere, but in later Latin discutere often, and in some contexts usually, means "to render a judgment." It is for example the usual verb used to describe the action of a high court when it overturns the judgment of a lower court; thus the breaking-apart metaphor. FWIW, this is the source of the English word "discuss." Forensic jargon appears elsewhere in the poem --- cassus, for example, is not the ordinary word for "in vain" --- so it seems at least likely that when the Judge comes, he will be rendering final judgments rather than breaking things up. A lot depends on what the implied, unstated antecedent of cuncta is. Crimina? Peccata? Smerdis of Tlön 02:49, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Thanks! That's actually quite helpful. The question now is how to translate this. Perhaps a footnote is in order? I admit I like the idea of everything brought together to be broken apart, which seems a fitting metaphor for Judgment Day's dual aspects of comprehensive collection and final destruction - a 'wrap up', as it were. That even seems to potentially fit with the more legal interpretation - everything brought together to be dismissed/overturned/finalized. How do we render this in English, however?
I too agree with the "render judgment" meaning. Therefore, the English translation should be "Everything shall be strictly judged". This translation is also closer to the spirit of the text, as it refers to the Day of the Judgment, not about the discovery of the facts. The discovery of the facts is provided by the book "in quo totum continetur" (everything is contained). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.165.192 (talk) 02:20, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

Poem itself should be moved...[edit]

...to the commons or wikibook --213.33.29.214 21:14, 14 Apr 2005 (UTC)

What's holding you back? --82.170.209.184 20:39, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Translation[edit]

The translation is dreadful. I have seen a translation somewhere that actually preserves the rhyme - it starts (I remember very little unfortunately)

days of wrath and terror looming
heaven and earth to ash consuming
david's quoth and sybills dooming

and I have seen a more modern translation that also achieves this (but not to the same meter)

That day of wrath and grief and shame
Shall fold the world in sheeted flame
As David's psalm and Sibyl's songs proclaim

could someone please find an uncopyrighted translation that actually does the poem justice?

The translation as it stood was meant to be, in essence, a crib, giving the English sense of the Latin as literally as possible. My

personal favourite for an English translation is the one by Ambrose Bierce. -- Smerdis of Tlön 16:16, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

When the sheep are then selected
From the goats, may I, respected
Stand among them undetected.
Here's a link to the complete Bierce version. -- Smerdis of Tlön 15:12, 9 May 2005 (UTC)

I disagree--if we are going to find a translation, it would be best to pick a literal translation, imho, and not a rhyming translation that isn't any good.

What is more important? Word-for-word, or meaning-and-poeticness? Most translations of ancient texts try to preserve special aspects such as metrical construction. A translation of Gadsby would be defeating the point if it put back the e's. ~~~~ 21:05, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

In poetry, at least, there's a distinctly different kind of translation, called an "imitation". William Josiah Irons's poem, in this article, is probably best called an imitation, rather than a translation, because it is not a proper translation, yet does seek to remain more or less faithful to the intent of the original while departing from its details. (BTW, there is currently no wikipedia article about the poetic imitation linked to the word "imitation")131.96.28.73 (talk) 22:25, 3 March 2010 (UTC)
I disagree, if only because I tend to think that when significant foreign language texts appear in the English Wikipedia, the reader ought to know exactly what they mean, rather than being given a poetic paraphrase. That said, if there's a traditional translation of the hymn used by the Roman Catholic Church, I've no objection to it: there's no reason not to have both the literal and the poetic versions. Out of curiosity, whose translation is it and when was it written? They should be credited as a source. Smerdis of Tlön 22:04, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
I agree that choice doesn't have to fall to either exact *or* poetic. Do both. Provide the most accurate translation and an example of (one of) the most symmetric (?) translations? Speed8ump 21:23, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

The translation currently in the article is terrible. The William Irons translation (which can be seen here: http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/luth_hymnal/tlh607.htm) is far better as it preserves the literal meaning. I'll give it a few days for comment, but if there aren't any substantial objections I'm going to change it. Dgf32 19:29, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Sweeney Todd[edit]

Whoever put the bit about the Dies Irae showing up all over Sweeney Todd, rock on! I just added a bit, and linked to the new page for the musical specifically. IvanP 18:12, 16 August 2005 (UTC)


Roger Zelazny[edit]

It may be too obscure, but this is also the title of a book by Roger Zelazny.

You're thinking Deus Irae. His title translates differently. 68.104.201.53 06:43, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Notation accidentals?[edit]

It seems like the D-sharps in the notation ought to be E-flats... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.105.133.39 (talk) 04:46, 11 October 2005

This is really a music theory question. I'm not certain which notation you are referring to here (as the only written music on the page has no sharps), but I suspect that whatever key your piece is written in it uses a number of sharps. Most people find it easier to remember additional sharps than a mixed collection of sharps and flats. You might also be interested in the existance of the double sharp accidental --Speed8ump from 207.235.66.3 19:04, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

As a side note on this, is it possible to find a notation of the tune NOT in alto clef? It seems obscre and unencyplopedic. 69.178.122.114 (talk) 18:28, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

69.178.122.114: Agreed. I will attempt to replace the alto clef with treble. Quantumobserver (talk) 01:14, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Link to "super-literal" version[edit]

I seem to recall that, somewhere on Wikipedia, there used to be a link to a "super-literal" version - there the whole thing was broken down word-by-word, translated precisely, so that it really didn't make any sense - but you knew exactly what each word translated to. It didn't read like any kind of coherent English. The link to the "literal version", an external document, really doesn't go to the same length. Does anyone recall the version I'm talking about? I can't find it anymore, but would love to see that version again. (Unsigned)

I'm not sure if this is it, but there is PDF scan online of [Chants of the Church] (Desclee, 1953), which includes the Dies Irae (pp. 53-67) and an interlinear English translation. It aims to be readable, so it's not always "super-literal", but it does give the translation of each word or phrase immediately below the Latin. Echevalier (talk) 02:50, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

MIDI[edit]

What about a dies ire midi file including the whole melody? Does anyone here want to volunteer for it?----

Dies Irae in The Hymnal 1940 (Episcopal) and Scripture reference[edit]

For the music of Dies Irae (plainsong sequence- 13th century) and the poetic translation by William J. Irons (1849)go to The Hymnal 1940 (Episcopal) number 468. The text has an archaic quality, a lot of words ending in "-eth", but you get the gist of it. "Day of wrath! O day of mourning! See fulfilled the prophets' warning, Heav'n and earth in ashes burning! O what fear man's bosom rendeth When from heav'n the Judge descendeth, On whose sentence all dependeth! Wondrous sound the trumpet flingeth; Through earth's sepulchers it ringeth; All before the throne it bringeth. Death is struck, and nature quaking, All creation is awaking, To its Judge an answer making. Lo, the book, exactly worded, Wherein all hath been recorded: Thence shall judgment be awarded. When the Judge his seat attaineth And each hidden deed arraigneth, Nothing unavenged remaineth.[...]" That's just the first six verses of nineteen, altogether.

It's important to note that the writer, Thomas of Celano, based his poem on different portions of Holy Scripture, but mostly on the book of Revelation, chapter 20, verses 11-15 for the picture of the Last Judgement.

Disambiguation[edit]

The Polish language version of this article links to a really nice disambiguation page: pl:Dies irae (ujednoznacznienie).

--82.170.209.184 23:04, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Heroes 5 Haven Town[edit]

Which verses of the "Lacrimosa" are sung in the game Heroes of Might and Magic 5 in the Haven town? Here's what I understand the woman sing:

Lacrimosa dies, dies illa Qua resurget ex favilla Judicandus homo reus

Tuba mirum spargens sonum ??????????????????? ??????????????????? Tuba mirum spargens sonum Would you write what does she sing in those "????" ?


Recent reference[edit]

For the References in Popular Culture:

I probably need someone with more astute ears to confirm this, but if I'm not mistaken, during Elias' Pillowpants monologue in the recently released film Clerks II, the Dies Irae theme can be heard playing in the background.

Oscar Wilde's poem[edit]

Here is a reference to the poem Sonnet on hearing the Dies Irae sung in the Sistine Chapel http://www.bartleby.com/143/19.html

Use in Salomé?[edit]

Where is the plainsong used in Salomé (the opera by Richard Strauss)? --Alexs letterbox 05:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Translation (again)[edit]

Well, this is crap. "Foredooming"? Are we serious, here? I haven't read the whole thing, but this is just ridiculous.
There is no reason for the translation to rhyme. None at all. While the average joe might not be able to translate the Latin, the rhyme scheme is obvious. I'd rather the translation didn't rhyme than for it to include non-words.
I don't want to unilaterally revert this mess, but, really, this is bad.
—  MusicMaker5376 07:42, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Some editors seem to have a strong preference for a hymnal's rhyming translation. As it stands now, only a few of the stanzas use that; the rest use the developed version of the fairly literal crib that was made collaboratively, and which still can be read in the history. My preference remains to move the rhymes into the "Translation" section, and tell us who they are by, and leave the entire hymn translated as literally as English idiom allows. - Smerdis of Tlön 16:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's get rid of this silly translation. The rhymes are clumsy; they devalue the original verse. The translation doesn't have to be literal, but we should at least find something more elegant. RedRabbit1983 14:30, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

The translation currently in the article is terrible. The William Irons translation (which can be seen here: http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/luth_hymnal/tlh607.htm) is far better as it preserves the literal meaning. I'll give it a few days for comment, but if there aren't any substantial objections I'm going to change it. Dgf32 19:31, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Please don't feel the need to wait as the translation that you found is much better. The sooner we get it on this page the better I say and thanks for the research. MarnetteD | Talk 19:41, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Done. I put in the Irons translation today. Glad you like it! Dgf32 02:22, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Star Wars Reference[edit]

I didn't want to touch it, since I wasn't sure, but I think the use of the Dies Irae in the Star Wars film referenced under "Cinema" is Verdi's setting of the Dies Irae. Can anyone corroborate me on this? Simpsone4 05:19, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Metropolis[edit]

It should be noted in the cinema section that the music of Fritz Langs Metropolis contains a part which cites Dies Irae (I'm not completely sure because of what I heard, but rather because of the documentary about the film, in which this is mentioned).

Lang's Metropolis was a silent film. It is altogether possible that one of several scores composed for it in later years contain Dies Irae theme, though. Does anybody know about it? --Goochelaar 08:50, 24 April 2007 (UTC)
Dies Irae is indeed part of the film's original music. Silent films were circulated with scores for theatre pianists to play. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.100.116.233 (talk) 15:20, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Harry Potter[edit]

Someone should double check this in case I am mistaken, but I believe that Giuseppe Verdi's Dies Irae is used as one of the main themes of EA Games' Quidditch World Cup video game and at least one of the early Harry Potter films. 148.177.1.218 17:18, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I believed it was Mozart's version, but I do know that Dies Irae is definitely the opening to the Quidditch World Cup game. I was just looking for it in the games section. 75.40.255.152 16:15, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Too many 'references'[edit]

The number of references in 'popular culture' in this article just looks ludicrous. I suggest creating a separate page. The list is surely far too long.

At the very least, we can prune it. I suggest moving quotations of Verdi's Requiem, for example, (like the Battle Royale one) to the article about the Verdi piece itself. Similarly for Mozart, and other settings. There is no reason to waste space by duplicating it in this article.

It is also important to note that here the producer or whoever is most likely choosing the music just because it is music - not to make a reference to the Day of Judgement!

I could go on - but I think, as a start, we should take out any references that can be better placed elsewhere. If there are no objections, I will start. Stefan 23:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are going to move them please do your first suggestion of creating a seperate page. I would also suggest that we leave the classical music list here, or at least make a sperate page from the Popular culture one and still leave some of the most prominant (Berlioz and Mozart come to mind) ones here. If a reader is unfamiliar with this subject and wants to learn where they can hear examples of it moving them solely to the composers page means that they would have to search every individual page (or worse every single work) to find where it occurs. One more suggestion - you might take your concern about this to the page for the classical music project as they may have more ideas than just yours or mine. Happt editing as you begin on this task. MarnetteD | Talk 00:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding use of the 'Dies Irae' in the cinema, I was surprised to see omitted what is perhaps the most famous use - as the title song in 'The Lion in Winter' - Peter O'Toole, Katherine Hepburn, Timothy Dalton, Anthony Hopkins - you may have heard of some of these people... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.228.99.32 (talk) 14:07, August 30, 2007 (UTC)

I've just done a cull of the rubbish that has accumulated in the article, under Literary References and References In Popular Culture. Here's the broad criteria I used:
  • If the work is wholly or mostly based on the words of the hymn (or the oldest musical forms), that counts towards it. By contrast if the work's own wikipedia article doesn't mention the Dies Irae, that counts strongly against it.
  • If the work is itself a particularly notable thing in itself, that counts towards it. If it's not so notable as to have a wikipedia articl itself, or even to be mentioned in the author's wikipedia article, that counts against the reference being mentioned here.
  • If the reference is a use of a particular musical setting (e.g. Mozart's or Verdi's, like most of them were) that counts against the reference being mentioned in this article. Perhaps the article for Mozart's or Verdi's requiem should mention such a usage, but in most cases probably not even there.
  • A reference to the work itself (in content or meaning) counts for a lot more than just using the name as a chapter title or whatever.
Hope that makes sense and I haven't removed anything which was genuinely worth keeping. --VinceBowdren (talk) 22:12, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
I recently learned from a friend with a Master's in Musicology that what I would call "the Demon's Theme" from Night on Bald Mountain is from Dies Irae. If so, it probably should be listed because unless you're Catholic, it's probably the example you'd be most familiar with.JDZeff (talk) 21:04, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Translation[edit]

I'm only a first year latin student, but it seems to me that when "teste David cum Sibylla" is being translated as "Heaven and earth in ashes burning", someone messed up. Now I realize this to keep the rhyme and meter, but some of the poem is loosing its crispness. I don't know if the rhyme and meter is especially interesting, but if it is, can't there just be an example of one stanza, as opposed to corrupting the main text the whole way through? --76.203.32.177 (talk) 02:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I noticed that and totally agree, wtf? Terrasidius (talk) 07:33, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I think you'll find that "Heaven and earth in ashes burning" is a rough translation of "Solvet saeclum in favilla". "Teste David cum Sybilla" is (very) roughly translated as "See fulfilled the prophets' warning" Scaramouche (talk) 21:12, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
We need a literal translation first and foremost. Poetic versions can come later. InfernoXV (talk) 14:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Most importantly, we need a standard translation (with sources/references/citations etc). --VinceBowdren (talk) 14:50, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Poem text[edit]

I have reinserted the poem text, even if it is in Wikisource. First of all, I believe it to be short enough to be quoted fully, for easier reference. Next, among the verses of the text itself there is further information about its variants and use. Finally, it would look a bit strange to mention free translations and paraphrases (as we rightly do) without having the original text in front of us. Happy editing, Goochelaar (talk) 07:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

That was a good idea, IMHO. Rwflammang (talk) 14:06, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Translation[edit]

The piece "See fulfilled the prophets' warning, Heaven and earth in ashes burning!"... i dont know, call it fantasy, immagination, whatever. It is not a transalation —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.253.214.227 (talk) 00:45, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

I've touched up a few words of the literal translation:
Quærens me: While an inquisition can be tiring even for the inquisitor, that is not what is happening here. Rather, Jesus Christ has wearied himself in seeking the lost, i.e., in his search and rescue mission (see previous stanza).
diem rationis: While the meaning is the Day of Judgment, surely the classical literal rendering is "day of reckoning".
Qui Mariam absolvisti, / et latronem exaudisti, / mihi quoque spem dedisti. If we are going to use archaic verb forms, we should at least avoid needlessly obscuring the parallelism and grammar of the stanza.
statuens in parte dextra: "Standing one the right" is obviously corrupt. Furthermore, statuo means to cause something to stand, not simply to be standing. In context, Jesus Christ is "setting" or "stationing" "me" on [his] right side or, by judicial decree, "assigning" "me" a place on the right.
flammis acribus addictis: The rendering "will be given away to rancorous flames" erroneously makes the verb future tense, and, given the judicial origin of addico, "given away" is simply lame. Better: "sentenced to rancorous flames."
I've also removed an ungrammatical "it" from the last line of the third stanza. The main verb is coget and the subject is Tuba. Refutations? Echevalier (talk) 22:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)


---Uncategorized comment---
Edit: it doesnt talk about umberto eco. It's a key symbol in The Name of the Rose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.253.214.227 (talk) 00:49, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Peter Graham - Harrison's Dream[edit]

Could somebody verify that Harrison's Dream by Peter Graham does indeed quote the Dies Irae? I believe it does, in the form of a brass fanfare-type line, but I'd like a second opinion. Here's a link to the recording:

http://www.mediafire.com/?vdt2lo1cb8ozje3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.159.28.228 (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

Sigh; you expect others to download a 12.5 MB file and listen through a 13:37 piece? My answer: if you refer to the section at 0:54 (which is a shortened version of the phrase at 0:37), it's not. I didn't listen any further. I'm going to remove the entry. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:57, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
In response to the quip about expecting people to listen to the whole file? Only the people that actually care, or maybe those that enjoy the music. However, thank you for the second opinion. 99.159.28.228 (talk) 15:01, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Musical settings, literary references, in popular culture[edit]

The list of works mentioned in the sections musical settings, literary references, popular culture, is severely lacking in references. This diminishes the list because the reader has no way of knowing whether the entry is justified. I suggest to implement the principles specified above at #Too many 'references'. If works don't have articles or if the Dies Irae connection is not mentioned in the article or is not referenced here, the entry should be removed. I'm going to place {{Citation needed}} templates against every entry which fails this test with a view to remove them in a few weeks' time. I know, it's ugly, but asking for references is the bread and butter at Wikipedia, and it will improve the article – either by finding references or by removing incorrect or irrelevant items. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I must say I disagree entirely. Appearances of the Dies Irae do not require references as they can be easily observed. One does not need to reference an astronomer to say that the Sun goes down every evening. One simply need look out the window at evening time to notice it getting dark. Having written a a number of these "referenceless" entries myself, I must say that even I do not have the written references of scholars to attest to the presence of the Dies Irae in these pieces of music-- I have merely the music itself, and one can hear plain as day the Dies Irae. Something so immediately observable requires no citation. If it were contested, I would see differently, but just as one can see the sun, so one can hear the Dies Irae and needs no scholar to attest the fact in order for it to remain an empirical observation. -- eethove (talk) 23:46 UTC, 5th of January 2011
  1. I don't understand why the contributor 174.56.27.63 would impersonate the user eethove in a discussion about reliable and trustworthy sources; such behaviour seems to diminish whatever argument is attempted.
  2. The presence of a melody in a composition is not quite as evident and observable by all as is the movement of the sun. There have been entries in this list which clearly did not contain the melody.
  3. Notability: take what I consider to be an obscure example: Robert Gerhard's piano concerto is listed; does it quote the Dies Irae? If the concerto had its own article, the Dies Irae quote could be mentioned there; as there is no such article, I assume the work to be insufficiently notable (at least on the English Wikipedia) and it doesn't need to be listed here. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:34, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm a little confused: I AM eethove, and I find it rather difficult to impersonate myself. Mind you, I do the voice perfectly... It is possible, perhaps, that I was not logged in when I wrote the above statements. As for your other points I certainly understand in cases where the Dies Irae is either incomplete or altered. I am not familiar with the piano concerto you referenced, but another good example might be Saint-Saen's third symphony (which he himself described as "a parody of the Dies Irae") or the syncopated and initially inverted version in Sweeney Todd, but many of the other examples really are clear as day-- (Erno Dohnanyi's Rhapsody No. 4 springs to mind as an almost literal translation or Nikolai Medtner's posthumous piano quintet in which only one note in the sequence is changed. Many other uncited references appear under this same category-- Mussorgsky, Lyapunov, and Rachmaninov among them. Also, I really must take umbridge with the Danse Macabre requiring citation, as the Dies Irae appears staccato and syncopated, although almost unchanged from the second version in Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique-- indeed, as with many of the listed works, the entire piece is about death. (To many composers, particularly of the Romantic era and beyond, that is precisely what the Dies Irae symbolized.) As to notability, I must say I once again disagree. Perhaps this is a stylistic difference between the two of us, but I would say that one of the greatest purposes of this article is to point out the sheer ubiquity of the Dies Irae. It truly does seem to appear everywhere, and that, I think, is one of the most remarkable things about it. Thus, the fame of the references is irrelevant compared to the very fact that so many exist. -- eethove (talk) 12:16 UTC, 6th of January 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 11:17, 6 January 2011 (UTC).

Impersonation: This edit was done by 174.56.27.63 and signed by Eethove who, until then, had never edited an article about music. You wrote: "It is possible, perhaps, that I was not logged in"; I have no way of knowing that, but it's now clarified.
You wrote: "I am not familiar with the piano concerto" – that's exactly my point; Wikipedia cannot accept such a claim without a source. You then mention Saint-Saëns' Symphony No. 3. You might have noticed that that work (and the Symphonie fantastique) does not have a Template:Citation needed because the Dies Irae is mentioned in its article, unlike the article for his Danse macabre. There have been quite a few entries in this list in the past for works which relate to the Dies Irae and its theme of death, but don't actually quote its melody. Whithout sources, it is impossible to say.
Notability: Wikipedia is not a list of trivia; if a notable work quotes the melody of the Dies Irae, there should be secondary sources saying so. That is the principle for all work on Wikipedia. Even better, a reputable source for your statement about the "sheer ubiquity of the Dies Irae" would indeed be a valuable addition to this list. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:47, 7 January 2011 (UTC)

To begin with your last point, a reputable source to attest to the melody's ubiquity is unnecessary; it is already here. Indeed, it is the very subject which we are discussing: this article. The very fact that this article has over 160 listed appearances demonstrates my point. If it had three appearances, then my claim of ubiquity would require citation. Instead, it has fifty times that, so once again, you can see for yourself firsthand, bearing in mind that citations are only necessary for that which cannot be known or quickly observed by the reader. With regards to the Danse Macabre, go listen to it. It quotes the syncopated Dies Irae directly several times. As it is a fairly common recording, you can once again be a firsthand source to the presence of the melody. When a reader can form an empirical observation, they are their own source. If you doubt the accuracy of a contribution, go listen to it for yourself before you contest and remove it, otherwise valuable information is lost from Wikipedia. -- eethove (talk) 14:15 UTC, 7th of January 2011 —Preceding undated comment added 13:17, 7 January 2011 (UTC).

(ec) Please familiarise youself with the second pillar at Wikipedia:Five pillars and all the links therein. While you're at it, you might also benefit from Wikipedia:Signatures and Help:Using talk pages. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
My opinion is somewhat in-between those of Michael and eethove. While I agree that any non-obvious claim should be sourced, I don't feel the urgency of deleting unsourced items in a few weeks' time. It is not as if those items were spam or vandals' work. At the very worst, some of them may be erronous--somebody might have mistakenly believed that the theme from "Dies Irae" was there while it was not. So I would leave the the "citation needed" tags, and I for one will look for books or liner notes confirming the Dies Irae connection, but I would also allow some time. Not every day an Alkan expert or a Myaskovsky scholar comes by. -- Goochelaar (talk) 13:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
Fair enough; but leaving items which need verification for an indefinite time seems to run against the principle of verified content. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:39, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
I have seen only today that you have proceeded to delete all the unsourced items. I was under the impression that your "fair enough" meant that you would accord them some more time to give them a chance to be sourced? Goochelaar (talk) 15:37, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Two weeks have passed since Michael Bednarek's message above. In that time, what effort was made to source the material? In fact, this discussion began back in mid-October, and has any effort been made since then to source the material? I see no problem with his decision to remove the unsourced examples. I for one have tired of "pop culture" articles and sections of articles that offer multiple "examples" but offer no references for same. The opinion expressed above by the sometimes-anonymous eethove is demented, and would lead to disaster. Nothing is obvious, nothing can be explained simply by virtue of an editor's knowledge or observation of what is alleged to be obvious. Everything must be referenced or it should be removed. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 16:07, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
In October last year, I wrote that my intention was to remove uncited items "in a few weeks' time" (see first paragraph in this section). I don't believe a single item has been sourced since then. For the record, here is the version before I removed them, and here is my edit, if anyone wants to rescue some. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 16:11, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I see: I read all the discussion two weeks ago, I did not check the dates, and I believed "few weeks' time" started in January. I hope to find the time to source some of the items and rescue them. Goochelaar (talk) 16:47, 21 January 2011 (UTC)
Wow, the deleted list is just the kind of thing I was looking for. If anyone wants a source to cite, this may be helpful. Msknathan (talk) 00:42, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Flipping the translations[edit]

Shouldn't the translation be directly next to the latin, and then have the interpretive version? Astropiloto (talk) 17:19, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Isn't that what you see? I see, for the first line: Latin, Irons' translation, sense-equivalent:
Dies iræ! Dies illa —— Day of wrath! O day of mourning! —— The day of wrath, that day
Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:10, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

When I first came to this page, I didn't read which colum was what. I thought the translation was the second column but it was actually the third. Shouldn't it be right next to the Latin? Astropiloto (talk) 12:38, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

The current arrangement has been there for some considerable time. The second column is a proper translation. Whether the third column, the "formal equivalence" version, is needed, is debatable. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:10, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I am looking at the last line of the first stanza. It seems to me that the first and third column line up more than the second one. Astropiloto (talk) 16:03, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't quite understand what you mean by "line up". As the article explains, the second column is a translation which replicates, or attempts to, the rhyme and metre of the original. The line "Heaven and earth in ashes burning!" rhymes with the previous two lines in the first stanza. The third column is a more literal translation without regard for rhyme or metre. I think the current arrangement is just fine. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:14, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, I think the "word" translation rather than the "meter" translation should be first. I however don't think that it is worth having a long disscussion over which is better. Therefore I propose that we close this conversation and leave it as it stands. Astropiloto (talk) 01:42, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Day of Wrath, the movie[edit]

In another of the numerous references to popular culture, the hymn is prominently featured in the 1943 Danish film "Day of Wrath" (Vredens Dag.) I believe the translation is Danish but will need to be verified by someone. In a really creepy scene, a choir of young school boys sings the hymn while a woman accused of witchcraft is being burned alive.

24.159.109.206 (talk) 14:03, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Reorganization and condensation of material[edit]

I did some reorganization of the material today, bringing similar material together in one place and eliminating some redundancy. If you disagree with any of the changes, please discuss them here rather than reverting the whole lot. AlbertBickford (talk) 22:59, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Because the history comparison tool does not deal well with moved material, it is hard to see what I did. I think I retained everything that was there before, except for redundant material that I condensed. If you don't see a piece that was there before, look around. It would also help if others familiar with the article would check it over to make sure I didn't garble any facts in the process of rearranging. AlbertBickford (talk) 23:04, 17 November 2012 (UTC)

Order of Musical References[edit]

I think it would be more useful to have the entries in "Musical References" be ordered by year, instead of alphabetically by composer. If it were in a table, readers could be given a choice. SlowJog (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2013 (UTC)