Talk:Digital rights management

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Is DRM access control technology, or access control and authorization technology?[edit]

SudoGhost claims that DRM is both in the edit summary of an recent revert, but the article describe DRM as just being a class of access control technologies. Which will it be? If no source exist to support that DRM is also authorization control technology, I will re-add my edit as by WP:RS (ie, using the wording as access control is defined with, rather then using wording that hint about authorization technology). I don't have a personal opinion on the outcome so long that the article do not contradict itself in the lead. Thanks. Belorn (talk) 22:33, 6 May 2013 (UTC) (Personal attack removed)

Given your editing focus on GNU, FSF, and Richard Stallman, it's an odd coincidence that your edit shares the exact wording that the FSF pejoratively uses in their campaign against DRM. Now my question is, why is "restrict" correct, whereas "limit" would not be, and how is this difference so strong that the article suddenly contradicts itself in the lede? - SudoGhost 00:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Please see WP:TALKNO. I could join the mudslining if we want to use the talk page to find editor motives behind their edits, and post misrepresenting comments about those editors. This however is against Wikipedia guideline, and is neither the purpose for a talk page nor for that matter Wikiquette. For the record, I will add the the claim that my edit was somehow connected to FSF is completely false, and your claim that my editing is focused on GNU, FSF and Richard Stallman is baseless, a lie, and an obvious attempt to try mislead and direct any discussion about content away from talk page. This is all Im going to say about motives on this page, and further similar comments will be directly reported to civil noticeboard.
So, the reason why the word "restrict" is more precise language for access control technologies, rather than using the word "limit", comes down to preciseness. Limit can refer to something that limit granted permissions as well as restrictions. It is also important to be consistent with the sources, included those that defines the definition of access control technologies. If sources define access control technologies to mean "the selective restriction of access to a place or other resource", then thats the wording and definition we need to use here. Rewriting it as "the intent to limit the use" would be inconsistent and borderline WP:NPOV. I will thus ask again the unanswered question of above. Is DRM access control technology, or access control and authorization technology. I have sources that do describe DRM as access control technology (here p 466), but I can't find any that shows it to be authorization technology. This is the time for people to either provide sources or gently stop reverting edits of those that do. Belorn (talk) 07:07, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
Nothing I said falls under WP:TALKNO, and it was explained as it is relevant to the edit. It's disingenuous to claim offense when it's pointed out that you having "no personal opinion" is at odds with your editing on Wikipedia, and then in the edit summary of that same comment accuse someone else of letting their personal opinion affect the content of the article.
As for the sources, even the source you gave does not support your edit. It describes "...DRM components that, by their nature, limit the customer's freedom..." (page 5) and how it "limits access" and how "...DRM systems are able to limit the accessibility..." (page 6) and "...user identification systems are a prerequisite for DRM systems to be able to limit access to content..." (page 8), so sources describe DRM as "limiting". However, nowhere in that book does it use the word "restrict" to describe DRM in any capacity. Whether it is "access control technology" or "access control and authorization technology" is irrelevant, since reliable sources verify and reflect when the lede uses the word "limit" as opposed to "restrict" and to conclude that because it may or may not be ""access control and authorization technology"" should change how it is otherwise described with a term not reflected by reliable sources is WP:SYN. - SudoGhost 10:30, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
As by BOLD and this discussion, I have now removed the mentioning of access control technology, and replacing it with the definition found in the book. The previous usage of the access control technology do not pass verifiability, so if you revert, you need to actually add a source that support what the complete text say. Have a nice day. Belorn (talk) 12:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
I went ahead and added a couple of reliable sources that supports the information in the lede, which I assume satisfies the matter. - SudoGhost 13:25, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
No, it does not, but it helps. It stills leaves the contradiction that access control only talk in terms of restrictions, and not in the terms of permissions. We should keep out such contradiction from the article, or alternative, provide enough context to eliminate any confusions such contradiction is causing. I thus suggest that we add definitions of the access control, and clarify that such access controls do not include permission granting authorization technology, but I will wait to implement such edit until the dispute resolution regarding the personal attacks is concluded. Belorn (talk) 13:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
There is no need to add the definition of access control, that's what the wikilink is for. I'm certainly not seeing any contradiction, especially not one that's supported by reliable sources. There doesn't appear to be any sources claiming that DRM doesn't include "permission granting authorization", yet plenty of sources that specifically state that it does, so there doesn't appear to be an issue with the lede, as far as reliable sources are concerned. - SudoGhost 14:04, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
If you have sources that say that DRM includes both access control and authorization technology, then as the very first post in this comment section said, add that and it will removed the contradiction of users reading the lead. I want to eliminate the contradiction that this article describe DRM as access control, but after visiting the access control, they a contradiction when this article talk about permissions. The way to solve the contradiction is either A), remove the mentioning/hinting of permission on this article, or B) add statement that show that DRM is not only access control technology but rather both access control and authorization technology. Either way solve the contradiction. Either way satisfies the matter of contradiction. Either way, I won't be posting here again until the DRN is concluded. Belorn (talk) 14:50, 7 May 2013 (UTC)
You need to be more clear about what you're saying, because the article says nothing about "authorization technology" in any way. Reliable sources describe DRM as a type of access control. There's nothing contradicting that, and there's no cause to remove any mention of permissions on this article, because reliable sources also support that content. There's no contradiction in the lede, and if you believe there is, you need to specify exactly what it is you believe is contradictory, and back that claim up with reliable sources showing there's some type of contradiction. - SudoGhost 15:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────What are the competing edits here? Whether or not we should say "access control" or not? Looks like it's sourced. Is the access control article posing the problem? TippyGoomba (talk) 03:44, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

That is a possibility too. In the access control article, its it distinguish itself from authorization technology by being about restrictions rather than the act of granting permissions. If that distinguish feature is incorrect (ie, access control technology can both deal with restrictions as well as permissions), then fault is there are not here. I also looked at Information and Management Engineering: International Conference, ICCIC 2011, Held in Wuhan, China, (link), and it describe authorization middleware to be part of the DRM implementation. Belorn (talk) 07:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
I'm still not clear what the dispute is about. You seem to be saying that the issue is that you think the act of granting accessing is distinct from the act of not denying access? That's a confusing notion. TippyGoomba (talk) 03:15, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
The act of granting access is distinct from the act of restricting access in the context of software. One is called Access control, and the other authorization. However, after going through several books on the subject (some which I own), including those of experts in the field, I think the lead is missing a rather large point. Several of them do not describe DRM as access control technologies, but rather an undefined number of technologies, bind together for specific purpose. At the moment, I am collecting the different description to bring a more complete description to the lead and intro. Belorn (talk) 23:22, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
As an aside, can you point to a source that makes this distinction? It sounds like a semantic distinction. Back to the topic at hand, there are sources that use one or the other and some editor wants to mention one but not the other? Is that the dispute? TippyGoomba (talk) 00:05, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
Correct. The edit in question is this one. I am not sure if it will be contested once I include a larger set of sources and include as much of the major definitions I can find, but if it is I will start up a RFC. I just want to be sure to first go through the clear majority of sources, primarily those made of commonly cited experts like Ross J. Anderson, Bruce Schneier, and Peter Guttmann and check that my current understanding of the subject is indeed an correct one. 95% there, but I do not want to take any shortcuts when starting an RFC. If Im missing works of equal notability as Security Engineering, Applied Cryptography, and godzilla crypto tutorial/Cost Analysis of Windows Vista Content Protection, post them and I will try to get a read before making the edit. Belorn (talk) 11:11, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── But those aren't the edits being discussed here. You guys are talking about "limit" vs "restrict". TippyGoomba (talk) 15:20, 10 May 2013 (UTC) Oh, I see now. Then you guys get into "access control" being bad because it's more like limit rather than restrict. How silly. I guess we'll wait until you collect your sources. I presume if you find that every is calling it "access control", that' what we'll put in the intro. Correct? At the moment, it sounds like you're trying to cherry pick sources. TippyGoomba (talk) 15:25, 10 May 2013 (UTC)

If there are any sources people want to bring up, feel free to mention them here. The only criteria I got is that the sourced material need to be well known in the field, and commonly cited by experts and researchers. If that is a too harsh requirement, then please suggest a better criteria. Belorn (talk) 02:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
You limit something by adding restrictions. You grant permissions by lifting restrictions, removing limits. The concptes of adding limits, granting permissions and restrictions are mutually required. You cannot have either without the others. In order to manage permissions (and hence also restrictions) you must have some authentication system. Hence, this is also a requirement in a functional system. You discussion, sourced or not, is rubish -- get on with your lives. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.167.145.44 (talk) 12:28, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Should references to digital rights management be replaced with the more accurate term digital restriction management?[edit]

Calling DRM digital rights management implies that you may gain some rights with DRM however DRM only takes away rights and imposes restriction on the user. Note that some companies will argue that those restrictions may be needed. Notice how the last sentence was unbiased but yet still used the word 'restriction' instead of 'rights'. This is an issue about accuracy not biasing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonic12228 (talkcontribs) 04:17, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Might be a crappy name, but that's what people call it. WP:COMMONNAME applies. TippyGoomba (talk) 04:45, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

^ Yes but it is an incorrect term accuracy is important.Sonic12228 (talk) 20:11, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

That's why the article uses "digital rights management". The article should and does mention issues with DRM, but the article isn't going to ignore reliable sources and and create a new name for the subject just because we feel that the name doesn't fit our viewpoint. Take the Stop Online Piracy Act article for example. It is called that because that's what its name is and what reliable sources use, not because Wikipedia feels that the name is an accurate descriptor. Like that article, digital rights management is a name, not a descriptor. That we don't feel that the name is a good descriptor does not mean we can create our own name for the subject. - SudoGhost 20:40, 27 June 2013 (UTC)
The name is what it is. Wikipedia has an article titled “Patriot Act” even though many, if not most, people believe that it is the antithesis of patriotism. There are vast numbers of such examples. But, that is the name. Wikipedia does not get to rewrite history in its image. An encyclopedia reports, it doesn’t evaluate or opine. 74.108.115.191 (talk) 00:30, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
The name "Digital Rights Managment" is a name which, if you read the words in context, implies a system which manages rights on a digital platform (or something else "digital"). The name does not suggest that it will grant you rights beyond what you are granted without the system. While I my opinion is that replacing "rights" with "restrictions" would be beneficial to the debate about DRM (since it more clearly describes what is happening), I cannot defend doing so in the context of wikipedia -- at least not untill DRM has shifted into being a short for "Digital Restrictions Management". As long as a proper description of DRM is presented, I'm quite happy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.167.145.44 (talk) 12:37, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

The term was coined in a certain wording, but now has a cultural shift that surrounds it which contextualizes it differently. That different contextualization is relevant and becoming widely used by opponents...and there is nothing wrong with mentioning both. Wikipedia's job is to present a relevant, factual, and accurately sourced overview of a topic. I do not think a 3-paragraph-introduction about DRM would be complete without mentioning that one of the most notable things about it is the opposition to its premise. If that opposition has co-opted the terminology to push strongly enough to want to reword it, then mentioning that is important also. But as others have mentioned: you don't get to rewrite history in the process of providing context. It should be clearly visible that the people who pushed DRM called it "Digital Rights Management" when it was being promoted. Any other name must be mentioned as coming after-the-fact. Metaeducation (talk) 03:30, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

I've taken the "just the facts, M'am" approach to this, thus Digital Restrictions Management no longer redirects to this page. That term is its own beast, created by an entirely different party from those who coined Digital Rights Management, has its own history, and belongs in its own disambiguation entry for DRM. This page belongs to the original artifact and should only link to the existence of the alternative interpretation. Deal? Metaeducation (talk) 04:09, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Forcehimes[edit]

Some guy wrote a paper that no one has heard of and is only mentioned in this article and another Wikipedia article. How can an encyclopedia be a source for itself? This is clearly not noteworthy and pushes a concept that violating basic laws that exist in nearly every country in the world is moral -- an obvious controversial POV. This article is embarrassing enough without an obvious extreme POV from an unknown. Objective3000 (talk) 01:26, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I reverted saying it wasn't an academic paper. It looks like it actually is, I mistook it by the url. Anyway, I don't see any benefits in including these sort of one-off arguments. Seems like WP:WEIGHT might apply? TippyGoomba (talk) 06:20, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
This paper is published in Think (journal), so it is reliable. As far as WP:WEIGHT is concerned, this article (Digital rights management) as a whole is a contrary view to Forcehimes' paper. --Ali Pirhayati (talk) 09:28, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
I think it was original published at cambridge press, which mean its peer-reviewed academic journal. For the WP:WEIGHT argument, I would add that arguments for WEIGHT need to be verified, and that sources are used to show that the academic journal viewpoint is only shared by a tiny minority. Articles like fewer than 1 in 10 teenagers believe that music piracy is morally wrong, or the discussion around aaron-swartz piracy of jstore seems to poke quite big wholes in the fringe claim. Law professor Eben Moglen discussed the moral question with the quote "a moral question of significance arises: When you can provide to everybody everything that you value, at the cost of providing it to any one body, what is the morality of excluding people who cannot afford to pay?". While I could easy locate a bunch more, I will just end the list by mentioning the The Libertarian Case: Against Intellectual Property Rights by Roderick T. Long, who sums up a large moral argument against copyright and patents based on individuals liberty rights. In the end, I agree that its an controversial POV, but its not an tiny minority as required by WP:WEIGHT. Belorn (talk) 09:58, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
A couple comments:
The majority of teens believe that no means yes. That does not mean that the WP article on rape should suggest that rape is morally acceptable and that this is not a fringe belief. And further, remove any statement that this is controversial.
Publication by a university press does NOT indicate peer review or any review at all. They will publish just about anything. Peer review means publication by a respected journal known for actual peer-review. Regards, Objective3000 (talk) 00:42, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
As with anything, please back your statement with sources. Statement that claim Forcehimes statement as controversial is fine if there is a source to back it up. You might personally also not believe what the majority of teens believe to be important, but thats your personal belief. Again, back it up by sources and you will have an argument to discard it. If not, then what we have is a source, your beliefs and my beliefs and in that case, the source always wins. Third, if you have a source to support that cambridge press publish non-peer-reviewed journals, again, mention them here. However, if you don't have any sources to support anything, then the only option here is to discard your comment completely. Thus, I implore everyone to base their comments on what is verifiable rather than personal opinion. Consensus around sources creates an encyclopedia, while personal opinion only creates politics and dogma. Belorn (talk) 09:31, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
I can't find any sources that the Forcehimes paper is controversial because I can't find any discussion of the paper whatever. No one outside of the person that added it to two WP articles has ever heard of it. Which suggests SPAM. That is the point. It is not noteworthy. As for peer-review, it is not up to me to support the claim that publication by a university means peer-review. It is up to the person making that claim. BTW, the WP article on Think Journal is almost a direct copy of the ad for Think Journal on their site and is clearly unacceptable.Objective3000 (talk) 11:35, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Maybe you missed it, but the blue text over the "its peer-reviewed academic journal" is a link to the About Us of cambridge press. The page says: In line with the commitment of Cambridge University Press to advance learning, knowledge and research worldwide, the Press currently publishes over 300 peer-reviewed academic journals for the global market.. So yes, it is up to the person making that claim to show a source, and that person did it. Its there. Right there. In the first post. In blue, or otherwise red if you have already visited it. As for the Forcehimes statement, you can always bring up others researches opinion about the subject matter to balance the section. I simply object on removing the text itself on bases like WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT, as those can be shown by sources as faulty arguments. Show that the about page interpretation is wrong, or that an overwhelming majority disagree with the statements made by Forcehimes with the help of sources and RS/WEIGHT could be used. Otherwise, the only useful way to go forward would be to add additional sourced viewpoints for balance purpose. Belorn (talk) 10:41, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
The ref does not claim that ALL of the journals are peer-reviewed. The Forcehimes paper appears to be unknown and unread except for the person that added it to two Wikipedia articles. There is no discussion of it. It has no weight. Wikipedia has more references to it than the entire rest of the World. You do not become notable because you are in encyclopedia. You get in an encyclopedia because you are notable. This is Wikipedia SPAM and an encyclopedia should not be used in this manner. Surely someone can come up with a better article claiming that breaking the laws of nearly every country is moral, if that's what you want. Objective3000 (talk) 10:56, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Come to think of it, I don't even think the article is relevant to DRM.Objective3000 (talk) 10:59, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Arguing around the relevancy to DRM is a better argument. Looking at the source, it does seems more suited in the anti-copyright article than here. I would not object to that reasoning, but I'm interesting to see if someone else will object. Belorn (talk) 11:59, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
Well, we could move it to the WP article people that SPAM WP to make a name for themselves with outrageous, repugnant suggestions that teens should violate laws. Seriously, I’ve had trouble finding anything about him because Google simply doesn’t have references, except for Wikipedia. I finally found him in the Think site -- he’s a student at Vanderbilt. Why are we reffing this unknown kid in WP?Objective3000 (talk) 21:56, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

/'.,';,.?/,L M. ,ML;,;./ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.191.79.202 (talk) 10:01, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Spite[edit]

How many people will deliberately break copy-protection and illegally distribute the material when they otherwise would have respected the copyright for the sole purpose of spiting and/or punishing companies that use DRM? It can't be an insignificant amount and it seems a relevant piece of information to put in the section regarding the disagreement between opponents and proponents. Obviously, such a statistic would benefit the opponents' argument unless the number is zero (which I know it is not).50.130.11.182 (talk) 22:15, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

Kind of liking arguing that shoplifting is the fault of retail stores that use anti-shoplifting devices. Should we add this to the shoplifting article?108.41.173.242 (talk) 23:02, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
How many people use anti-shoptlifting devices as their reason for shoplifting? That, and it's hardly the same thing. Besides, even if it were even close, you can take the anti-shoplifting devices off after you pay for it. You don't have to crack them. You might have used a better analogy like people stealing gasoline because of higher prices, and the theft deterrents because of the stealing, and the circumvention because of the theft deterrents. At least the mindset on that one is the same, even if the particulars are vastly different.50.130.11.182 (talk) 00:41, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Concerning the tags added[edit]

If there are issues with the article, they need to be explained. Slapping multiple tags on the article without saying what the problem is doesn't help improve the article. Which sections are problematic? Why has no attempt been made to fix these problems first? Specific concerns can't be addressed if those concerns aren't expressed. - Aoidh (talk) 12:40, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

"Digital restrictions management" links here[edit]

"Digital restrictions management" links here, but can't be found in the article. I vaguely remember it being in the lead (in bold). Did anyone delete it (by consensus)? I think the phrase should be here (since it links here) somewhere at least. And I guess in the lead in bold. And if not an anchor to its place and there in bold. comp.arch (talk) 14:19, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

It was removed from the lede because it's WP:UNDUE, it's a POV term used by a political advocacy group, and the only sources that supported that wording was that group. - Aoidh (talk) 02:17, 5 February 2014 (UTC)
"removed from the lede", yes, I can live with that maybe (if deemed minor term) but the opposition is mentioned and should where phrase be in there somewhere, since the redirect links here? Note this phrase is used a lot with or without the other, by non-GNU/FSF sites such as news sites: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] Articles: [7] [8] Misc: [9] [10] [11] [12] comp.arch (talk) 11:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)
The redirect should be removed. Sarcastic put-downs should not be given the undue importance of a redirect in an encyclopedia.Objective3000 (talk) 23:56, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
Ref #4 only mentions it thusly: “As some wags have said, the initials D.R.M. should really stand for “Digital Restrictions Management.” Some wags is not a source that should be used for a redirect in an encyclopedia. Ref #6 follows the term with (sic) indicating that the term is erroneous. It is not in ref #7. It is not in ref #9. Refs #10, #11 and #12 all have the same title.Objective3000 (talk) 19:31, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
The redirect is appropriate. People will be searching for 'digital restrictions management' and some way or another we need to show them what it refers to. A mere redirect doesn't legitimise the term. – Steel 10:45, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
The FSF title is well sourced, and is relevant to the subject, and it would be against WP:DUE to not include it in the article (lead or not is a other discussion). Trying to remove criticisms just because one do not like what the message says would be NPOV. Belorn (talk) 11:55, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Do a Google search on "Faux News". You will find thousands of images, YouTube videos, books, numerous sites with variations of fauxnews, as well as massive hits from around the world. This put-down is vastly more commonly used than "digital restrictions management", a term I've never heard before coming here. Faux News is far more "well-sourced". Yet, Faux News is not in the Fox News WP article, much less in a redirect, because sarcastic twists of terms do not belong in an encyclopedia. This appears to be an effort to use WP to promulgate this sarcastic misstatement of the name of a technology to push a POV. Objective3000 (talk) 12:43, 26 May 2014 (UTC)
Im not going into that argument, because Wikipedia already has your answer in WP:OTHERSTUFF. This is not the Fox News article. If you want to argue things regarding fox news, go to that article and argue in its talk page. In this article, Please answer why a well sourced criticism, found in books and news papers, should be excluded in here (beyond your dislike of how the criticism is phrased). Also, given that several editors has tried to add this and two editors blocking it, I have added the appropriate template to the article until the issue of balance has reached consensus. Belorn (talk) 14:27, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm NOT arguing the Fox News article. I agree with the way it was handled, because it was handled correctly -- unlike this article. WP:OTHERSTUFF does not apply. I already responded above to the "well sourced criticism". The most respected sources mention the put-down, but then put it down itself as erroneous and words from "wags"; some of the refs don't actually contain the term, and most of the remainder are blog articles all using the identical title.Objective3000 (talk) 15:41, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Note the following from a National Science Foundation symposium: [13]. Digital Rights Management is called a euphemism and in the footnotes Digital Restrictions Management is called sarcasm. Wikipedia defines a euphemism thusly: ‘A euphemism is a generally innocuous word or expression used in place of one that may be found offensive or suggest something unpleasant.’ Sarcasm is defined by Wikipedia as ‘a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter gibe or taunt.’ The claim that an offensive, biting, bitter, gibe or taunt is a more accurate term is a very strong POV. There is no need to use such remarks to make a point. It suggests that the technology is 100% wrong and there is no need for balancing viewpoints. Providing such as a redirect gives undue weight to a sarcastic, erroneous definition of an acronym.Objective3000 (talk) 16:03, 27 May 2014 (UTC)
Saying you are not arguing WP:OTHERSTUFF does not make it so when your argument are "this other article do this". For reliable sources, here is a small sample of books that mention Digital restrictions management: The Impact of Electronic Publishing: The Future for Publishers and Librarians ,Collection Management Basics ,Industrial Organization and the Digital Economy ,Software Security -- Theories and Systems ,Innovations and Advanced Techniques in Computer and Information Sciences, Developments in the Economics of Copyright: Research and Analysis. That just the first links. We have a article by Cory Doctorow, published by The Guardian, that includes this title. Not including (ie censoring) this criticism in the article would be a direct attempt to push an agenda, and create an unbalance in the article. Belorn (talk) 12:09, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Belorn, that's not WP:OTHERSTUFF, and you should read WP:OSE in the future, as it spells out exactly what is wrong with what you've said regarding that. It's a perfectly reasonable argument and the "Faux News" comparison is used to demonstrate the argument as it's already found in practice on Wikipedia. You can find many more references to "Faux News" than you can "Digital Restrictions Management", yet you'll find no mention of it on the Fox News article. The sources you found are all very brief mentions with little to no context, that similarly fails to show that this is something relevant to the article's subject. The term "Digital Restrictions Management" is a POV term used by a single group to push a political agenda that has very little coverage in reliable sources other than the kinds of sources you've shown; brief mentions with little to no context or elaboration. That's not sufficient to put it in the lede of the article as if it's a central theme to the subject; it's not and it is completely inappropriate there. I think a single sentence might be appropriate in the Opposition to DRM section, but even then such a sentence would need to make it clear that it's a political term used to push an agenda. - Aoidh (talk) 13:07, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Clearly Belorn is correct that censoring the term "digital restrictions management" removes a valid criticism. The whole point of DRM, as the article states, is "the intent to control the use of digital content..." Control is restriction. In fact, we should edit that very sentence to replace "control," with "restrict." Perspective (talk) 16:24, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for your POV. But, there are robust opposition, shortcomings, and alternative sections in the article, and the word 'restriction' can be found in the article 22 times. There is no censorship -- merely editing to encyclopedic standards. DRM is an acronym that stands for 'digital rights management'. The developers of technologies get to name them. Critics can raise issues, but they cannot redefine acronyms.Objective3000 (talk) 18:09, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Aoidh, you should read WP:OSE, as if you did you found the following sentence: The nature of Wikipedia means that you cannot make a convincing argument based solely on what other articles do or do not exist, because there is nothing stopping anyone from creating any article (except for a salting, which is only performed in dire cases). Arguments based solely on what other artciles do is pointless, for the same reason you can't use other articles as sources. They are not reliable, as anyone can edit it at any moment, making any argument invalid in the seconds it take for someone to edit the article. I could do that in this case, but that would in itself go against WP:POINT. As for the subject at hand, censorship is the removal of reliable sourced information based on solely what a few editors think about the message. What is being conducted here is exactly that. Belorn (talk) 18:24, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I have read it, and if you believe that the sentence you quoted applies, please read the discussion again; there's a difference between making a comparison just because it exists, and using it because it reinforces the application of policies and guidelines and shows that it is applied elsewhere on Wikipedia. Quoting WP:OSE when the latter is the case is missing the point. More importantly it does not belong in the lede. Period. It might belong in the section I mentioned above, but citing WP:OSE as a way to avoid addressing a valid argument doesn't speak well to what you're trying to convey, and WP:LEDE explains why the content, if it belongs, certainly does not belong in the lede. The lede summarizes the article, it is not a place for content not explained elsewhere, especially content that would barely deserve a mention in the article itself, if at all. - Aoidh (talk) 19:39, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
If it reinforces the application of policies and guidelines, bring up those policies and guidelines. If you read Objective3000 comment above where he first mentioned Faux News, you will see there is zero policies, and zero guidelines linked or even mentioned. You claiming here that there is makes me question whatever you have actually read his comment. Belorn (talk) 20:20, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
WP:NDESC for one. The comparison is a valid one, because Faux News isn't there for a reason. That reason is relevant to this article as well, it's not just an oversight, "Faux News" was mentioned on the Fox News article at one time, but was removed after discussion because, even though there are sources that verify the term (many more than what you showed above), it isn't actually used by sources in any meaningful way. Outside of the political advocacy group that came up with the term "Digital Restriction Management", there's very little in the way of sources showing actual use, outside of a very, very few mentioning that "some people" use it, but not going to far as to use it themselves. That is why WP:OSE does not apply; though it would have been helpful no doubt, that guidelines were not spelled out within wikilinks doesn't change that. - Aoidh (talk) 20:52, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
WP:NDESC has not been mentioned before in this discussion, and it helps if they write it. I, and no one else in here are mind readers, so until they are mentioned, one can't really claim that its been brought up. Second, WP:NDESC is not relevant here, since its about the tile of the article. No one has suggested we should change the title, only adding the reliable sources information to the article. Belorn (talk) 21:02, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
The name of this talk page section makes it relevant, and no one claimed it was "brought up". You asked what would apply, I answered with an example and an elaboration. It would help if you wrote out what exactly you're proposing to be added to the article so that it can be discussed, because the edits that were made to the lede are problematic for the reasons already explained, most importantly because the lede is a summary, not a place for new information. - Aoidh (talk) 21:08, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
No problem. A draft is now added. It include the primary source (since its directly attributed to stallman), but also several other references (please fix the bad urls and citation format) in order to support it. One could mention that FSF has taken the position that stallman has, but for now, this is more clear and simple. Belorn (talk) 21:49, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I would advice everyone that wikipedia is built on WP:consensus. Remove the template once consensus has been reached, not before. Belorn (talk) 18:29, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia consensus is that the lede summarizes the article content. Add that template if you manage to change that consensus, not before. When the template was removed you were asked to discuss the content's relevance to the lede on the talk page, something you have not done; there is a critical difference between being in the article and being in the lede, which you have not discussed. - Aoidh (talk) 19:39, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
The template is there to help create consensus, and to encourage more editors to comment in such a way consensus can be reached. When there is a dispute, templates are a help tool, not something to edit war about. Please stop creates animosity between editors (which is what this behavior causes) and help find consensus.
If you add the information to the article under the appropriate section, then rather then edit warring, you might find that the article creates balance between different viewpoints. Until then, we will never know. So long you just remove content, revert, all you will get is non-consensus and thus, the template for more participation.
Last: Your comparison with Faux News is original research, ie your personal view. If you find a source arguing the same thing, you would have something to back up your personal view. Same goes with your claim that The term "Digital Restrictions Management" is a POV term . Bring sources, or argue based on policy, or find consensus. Either way, your behavior is aggressive (reverts rather than discussion, and aggressive behavior as per Wikipedia:Edit warring#Handling of edit-warring behaviors) and it is not helping in creating a good article. Belorn (talk) 20:13, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
See your talk page concerning your comments. - Aoidh (talk) 20:35, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
This is the kind of constant POV nonsense that has soured me on Wikipedia.Objective3000 (talk) 00:02, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Rather than this POV nonsense, people could have moved the content to the article body rather then just reverting reliable sourced information. One Reaps What One Sow. Belorn (talk) 01:42, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
Given Belorn's extensive editing, I suggest we rename this article Anti-DRM. Objective3000 (talk) 14:00, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
If you want to propose renaming the article, the guidelines is at WP:RM and WP:Moving a page. I will oppose such move, but feel free to follow the described procedures if you want to. If you rather want to improve the article, I recommend improving the wp:verification by adding citations to reliable sources, and removing unsourced material. Objective3000, It is easy to just revert edits or sit here and complain, but if you want to actually improve the article, one have to do the hard work of finding sources and adding them to the article. I hope you choose to pick the later. Belorn (talk) 14:36, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
I guess discussion/consensus is pointless since Mjdtjm is just forcing the edit without bothering to discuss. I suggest we get rid of Talk Pages.Objective3000 (talk) 10:37, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────The mention added to the Opposition to DRM subsection is the right spot for, though the formatting of the sources need to be cleaned up. Per WP:LEDE, however, I have to stress again that it doesn't belong in the lede of the article. - Aoidh (talk) 14:09, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Streaming Services[edit]

Shouldn't the list of major users of DRM be extended to include streaming services like Spotify? I don't know the technical details, but I'm sure they use some kind of DRM to stop people capturing streams and converting them to MP3s, etc.109.158.244.93 (talk) 13:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Congratulation[edit]

User:Aoidh, User:Objective3000 and User:Steel got their Agenda and censored other names of the topic out of the first sentence. 78.35.218.47 (talk) 17:36, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

From WP:LEDE: "The lead serves as an introduction to the article and a summary of its most important aspects...the emphasis given to material in the lead should roughly reflect its importance to the topic, according to reliable, published sources." The term "Digital Restrictions Management" is, in the scope of this article, insignificant, and this is reflected by its usage (or lack thereof) in reliable sources. The term is used by a political group and outside of that group you have to try hard to even scrape together any sources that even mention this term in passing, let alone any that actually use the term, therefore keeping WP:LEDE in mind it is inappropriate to mention this in the lede sentence, to say nothing of the WP:NPOV policy which says that undue weight should not be given to minority viewpoints and this includes "prominence of placement". The lede sentence is about as prominent as it can get in an article, and so the lack of sources that show usage means that this prominence in the lede is inappropriate. That is why it was removed from the lede, and the article was locked because you chose to edit-war instead of discussion (even now, finally' coming to talk page because the article is locked, you still aren't attempting to discuss the edit or why it belongs). - Aoidh (talk) 20:32, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
Stop suppressing different names for a topic, thank you. There is no need to "discuss" rule-based and fact-based contributions to Wikipedia. Wake up and admit that you are the one who is pushing POV here and undermining the principles/values of Wikipedia. Digital Restrictions Management was already in the lead 11 years ago. Digital Restrictions Management is not only used/reported by the bearded guy from the Free Software Foundation, but also at policy input at the European Commission[1] and the Federal Trade Commission[2]. Software vendors(VideoLAN[3], OSGeo[4]) use it and broadcasting organizations like the European Broadcasting Union[5]. And this are only a fraction of parties that acknowledge that the term actually exits and is used.
  1. ^ http://ec.europa.eu/avpolicy/docs/other_actions/col_2008/ngo/ansol_en.pdf
  2. ^ http://www.ftc.gov/policy/public-comments/comment-539814-00076
  3. ^ https://wiki.videolan.org/Digital_Restrictions_Management/
  4. ^ http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/Digital_Restrictions_Management
  5. ^ https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/techreview/trev_309-digital_rights.pdf

But luckily you got your agenda into the article first sentence and the support of a censor, congratulation again! 78.35.218.47 (talk) 21:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Our agenda is to build an encyclopedia based on reliable sources and Wikipedia guidelines. Your agenda appears to be based on pushing a POV, and damn the rules. Your refs are from biased sources. Legitimate sources, like the NYTimes and the Guardian, have used the term only to point out that it is a misuse. Look, the inventors of a technology, for better or worse, whether or not it is a good or bad technology, get to name it. That’s the way it works. Any other naming by critics is sarcasm. It is not the real name. I think Faux News is a more accurate representation of the nature of Fox News. But, I wouldn’t add such a sarcastic name in the lede, or anywhere in the article, for Fox News. And, certainly not in a redirect. It would just make the encyclopedia look silly, opinionated, and unreliable. SNL thinks Barbara Walters should be called Baba Wawa. Is that in the lede of the Barbara Walters article? Probably most people by now think “The Patriot Act” should be called any number of other unpleasant things. But, that’s the name of the act. There exist a million such examples. Your opinion is irrelevant. Stallman’s opinion may be relevant in the opposition section, and it is there. Personally, I think the section should be edited to include his opposition without the sarcasm, as it does nothing to help his argument to anyone capable of thinking without the aid of sarcastic imagery. In any case, it is NOT an encyclopedic, alternate name. It is a sarcastic putdown from a person know for hyperbole.Objective3000 (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2014 (UTC)
"Our Agenda", sorry I do not understand who you mean by "our". Since you are pushing POV (as This Topic is only named after advocates name of it), I assume that you try to use the decent contributors to Wikipedia as support as your "argument". Since I have no agenda and wanted to inform me more about Digital Restrictions Management which I read, I copied that term into Wikipedia and got to this article, only to notice that it was not in the first sentence, where different names of a topic belong.

Look, the inventors of a technology, for better or worse, whether or not it is a good or bad technology, get to name it

— Objective3000

Because that is your claim, I would like to hear who is the inventor of the Digital Restrictions Management technology and therefore "have to right" to name it?

Your refs are from biased sources.

— Objective3000

This wasn't even near to an argument, could you please name the bias? Thank you.

Legitimate sources, like the NYTimes and the Guardian, have used the term only to point out that it is a misuse.

— Objective3000

When is a source a legitimate source, when and who decides it? like the NYTimes and the Guardian, as if the NYTimes is only as legitimate/reliable as any other source. You could read the article of the NYTimes and the The Guardian. Are you a biased reader of NYTimes and The Guardian who assume that it is the holy grail of legitimate source and the tenants of the truth(TM) and therefore other publication/website have the right to name things/topics?

Your mention of Faux News is better discussed on the topics talk page. The mention of Barbara Walters is better discussed on the topics talk page. Should we include the automobile articles first sentence here?

Your opinion is irrelevant.

— Objective3000

Very true. And since my opinion is irrelevant, I posted reliable sources that Digital Restrictions Management is a name of the topic.

Stallman’s opinion may be relevant in the opposition section, and it is there. Personally, I think the section should be edited to include his opposition without the sarcasm, as it does nothing to help his argument to anyone capable of thinking without the aid of sarcastic imagery. In any case, it is NOT an encyclopedic, alternate name. It is a sarcastic putdown from a person know for hyperbole.

— Objective3000

Please do not stick your POV to the term Digital Restrictions Management being used by Stallman. I posted several sources.

Your agenda appears to [...] damn the rules.

— Objective3000

I followed this rule. As I said Congratulation to you, you got your POV into the articles first sentence and the article is now blocked to editing by IP addresses. 78.35.193.39 (talk) 04:54, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't even know what POV it is you think I have and I added nothing to the lede at all.:) Nobody likes DRM.Objective3000 (talk) 14:25, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Cloud[edit]

I'm a bit concerned about the use of the word 'cloud'. Cloud is an advertising term, not a technical term. It has no specific technology meaning; but is used to describe many and various methodologies, some in use for decades. It probably should not be used at all in an encyclopedia.Objective3000 (talk) 23:55, 3 August 2014 (UTC)

"Legal Rights"[edit]

The present text states that DRM may restrict the exercise of 'legal rights' under copyright legislation, such as making backup copies or 'fair use'. This is misleading. In general (with possible exceptions) these are not absolute legal rights but merely exclusions from the force of copyright law. In the absence of any explicit statutory provision, such exclusions may be overridden by contractual provisions. So, for example, if you buy a piece of computer software, and agree to terms and conditions which prohibit *any* copying, then making an unauthorized backup copy would be a breach of contract. You have (in general) no 'legal right' to do something that you have contractually agreed not to do. For example, even the US Constitutional right to 'free speech' may be overridden by contractual obligations. That is how Google and other tech companies prevent employees or ex-employees from selling all their trade secrets.86.183.122.94 (talk) 16:35, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Sounds logical. But, the law isn't always logical and some rights cannot be contracted away. You'd need a good legal reference.Objective3000 (talk) 17:40, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Different legal system has different laws. Sweden for example has a explicit legal right to copy for private use, which is "paid" with a special tax. Any statement would have to either be limited to a specific country and their legal system, or broad enough to cover the many different system that exist. Belorn (talk) 08:45, 9 September 2014 (UTC)