Talk:Dingir

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The Hungarian "tündér" come from archaic language like sumerian dingir. -- 19:12, 16 February 2008 81.182.243.132

I would tend to doubt it. Sumerian has never been shown to be anything other than a language isolate. AnonMoos (talk) 19:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
That is correct, Sumerian has no know relationship with Hungarian or Turkish. Show us proof if it is true, that is true scientific proof. Enlil Ninlil (talk) 08:53, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Old Turkic tengri god is more similar to dingir than Hungarian tündér fairy. But Sumerian language has also some words which are similar to some Indo-European words. When I look up some Sumerian dictionaries I can see some Turkic-like, Arabic-like, Persian-like words (as if it was Ottoman dictionary!) but there are so many different words. And we do not know how Sumerian words were pronunciated exactly, because Akkadian tablets show their pronunciation. Akkadian language had only four vowels, perhaps Sumerian language had more than four vowels. This thing is current with the consonants. --78.191.10.66 (talk) 18:05, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Enlil's association with planet Jupiter deleted because this association is not supported by the Wikipedia entry for Enlil and Tamara M. Green, prof. of Classical and Oriental Studies at Hunter College, CUNY, states Enlil was never associated with any planet in The City of the Moon God: Religious Traditions of Harran, Brill, 1992. Phaedrus7 (talk) 18:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Pantheon section moved[edit]

The section on the pantheon is a contents fork from Mesopotamian_mythology - I have integrated the material there. This article should focus on the Sumerian/Akkadian determinative since this is the meaning ot the Dsuperscript from which it should be linked. Enki H. (talk) 14:43, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Tengri ?[edit]

Tengri (in Old Turkic) > Tanrı (in Turkish) = "God" Böri (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

You mean "is it related"? Unlikely, as one word is from 3000 BC Mesopotamia, and the other from AD 500 Central Asia. Why should they? --dab (𒁳) 18:25, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

Turkish language is older than AD 500 : Xiongnu#Turkic_theories_and_possible_relationship_to_Huns (& these years don't show anything! for example, how many years are there between The Hittite language and the Old English? We know that the English language and the Hittite language have many cognate words...) also: Julius Oppert suggested that a non-Semitic, "Turanian" language had preceded Akkadian in Mesopotamia, and that speakers of this language had developed the cuneiform script. from Sumerian language . Böri (talk) 08:06, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
I think Dbachmann meant that we don't have any substantial attestation of Turkic vocabulary until ca. 500 A.D. (though obviously Turkic languages were spoken before than time), and also there's no evidence that any Turkic language was ever spoken within a thousand miles of Sumeria before Sumerian went extinct. Isolated word resemblances do not prove a linguistic relationship, and the relationship between English and Hittite is secured by a whole web of sound correspondences and grammatical correspondences... AnonMoos (talk) 11:47, 1 November 2010 (UTC)
I know this site (In fact, I have that book... I saw that site now!): Turkic-Sumerian cognates (by Osman Nedim Tuna)

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A3=ind0308&L=language&P=2828626&E=2&B=--------------050000000408020202070501&N=Sumerian-Tuna.pdf&T=application%2Fpdf Böri (talk) 14:40, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Please see WP:RS. See also Sun-Language Theory and related subjects. For the record, Proto-Turkic is dated to about the 1st century, but there is no way of knowing whether the deity Tengri existed before actual attestation in the Middle Ages. If you read the Tengri article, you will realize that the word is probably ultimately of Chinese origin. --dab (𒁳) 14:46, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

The book of Osman Nedim Tuna is a reliable source. http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osman_Nedim_Tuna and yes, Tian = Tengri = "Sky", "God", "Sky-God" ; it says: The Chinese word for "sky", Tian, may also be related, possibly a loan from a prehistoric Central Asian language but how do you know that it's a Chinese word? The Turkish language and the Chinese language have many cognate words: shui 水(Chinese) = sub (Old Turkic) = su (Turkish) = "water" / you 油 (Chinese) = yağ(Turkish) = "oil, fat" , etc. Böri (talk) 09:30, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Your reference is not serious. The book of Osman Nedim Tuna is not a "reliable source". The fact that the author has a Turkish Wikipedia article tells us nothing. There is also no need to base our articles at English Wikipedia on Turkish language sources.

However, googling around I find that an interesting point can indeed be made in this context. I will try to present it. If your Tuna simply collects suggestions from old literature of the 1920s and 1930s, there is no need to cite Tuna instead of the stuff he cites, is there. The proposition here is that tengri is not so much cognate with either tian or dingir, but that both these words may be loans from(!) a Central Asian source. This isn't more than random speculation, but if Mircea Eliade can honour it with a footnote, then we can too. --dab (𒁳) 12:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

It's also interesting that dingir was noted as a possible "Turanian" element in the "language of Chaldaea" by Rawlinson in 1862, this being even before Sumerian had been identified as a language on its own terms. I am not sure what current opinion on this would be. It is true that dingir can easily be a loanword in Sumerian, as it is rather noticeable how dingir is *not* the Sumerian word for sky or the sky god, but a separate term referring to a more abstract notion of "divinity". --dab (𒁳) 13:04, 2 November 2010 (UTC) Tengri means "god", not "sky god" in Old Turkic. Kök tengri means "sky god" kök=sky, tengri=god. --78.183.195.165 (talk) 12:51, 5 August 2011 (UTC)