Talk:Disco

Untitled

Moved Possible error section to bottom as it is custom to put new sections at the bottom Edkollin (talk) 22:02, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think this article is written like a personal reflection or essay and may require cleanup.Jeena Ozero Capulet (talk) 09:37, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Michael Jackson

I just watched the "Rock with You" video for the first time in a long time. I think it qualifies as disco. It has violins, it's funky, and it has a "4 to the floor" beat. What do you think? Does the song deserve specific mention in the article, or is the article long enough and replete with enough mentions to the Jacksons already? Ikan Kekek (talk) 07:37, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Does not matter what you or I think. If reliable sources say it is disco or a post disco genre put it in otherwise keep it out.(Note: New Topics usually go on the bottom) Edkollin (talk) 22:13, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Reverts

I made two reverts in the original from LGBT back to Gay and I deleted hippie as an influence altogether

LBGT. First of all LBGT was a term that did not exist in the early 1970's. While there might have been lesbians and bisexuals involved in the formation of disco music the primary homosexual demographic involved in the formation of disco music and culture were gay men. The fact the lesbians are people also is completely irreverent.

Hippies - The Hippie encyclopedia used as their primary source the Wikipedia article on hippies. Using Wikipedia as a source is not allowed. On the merit the claim of hippie is very questionable. Sly and The Family Stone were a hippie band that was very important in the formation of disco music. Beyond that there is really no other hippie group that comes immediately to mind. Hippies are primarily associated with rock music not disco. Ex hippies were heavily involved in the backlash against disco music. Hippies were dress down disco was dress up. Edkollin (talk) 01:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you joking, or what? ("The fact the lesbians are people also is completely irreverent") w-wait.. lesbians are people too, aren't they? :D or do you mean they're aliens? Seriously, I think you're so wrong. Hippies HAD great impact on emerging Disco music (at the time it was "proto disco" music) so do all of LGBT people - transgenders, lesbians, gay, bisexuals - all of these people had influence on proto disco, not only gay men, you're so selfish.. oh no no no.. don't think about it.. this isn't some kind of "personal attack" stuff, you know. What is Psychedelia at all? Culture of hippies. Yeah, I get it, so do you?! Oh, by the way term Disco did not exist, since the year 1973.. so do term "LGBT", as you said, but this is the year 2009 and we have write this article of 2009-point-of-view (or somewhat that), am I right? ☆ RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 12:45, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

In the big scheme of things of course it is important that lesbians are people to. But the fact that lesbians are people to is irrelevant to THIS ARTICLE. The only thing that matters for THIS ARTICLE is their role in the formation of disco music. So you have to prove with reliable sourcing that lesbians and hippies had an important role in the formation of disco music or culture. Otherwise it is just your opinion or original research and it can not go in the article. Edkollin (talk) 20:25, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

OK. Hippie sources: [12], [13]. What I found: Electric Circus (nightclub) - this influential discotheque had also great impact on rising disco music on late 1960s.. and the big thing.. it was a "hippie discotheque", so 1:0 for hippies. Why you anyway want to delete that hippie origins? You hate hippies, or what? And why you defend "gay" origins, although proto-disco was only played on that gay discotheques (and I guess it wasn't only gay males who had discotheques, also shemale discotheques, bisexual discotheques, lesbians discotheques.. and many others.. but I can't found any sources by now, *sob*.. ah life sucks), I mean.. they're just putting that records on, that's all. Proto-disco artists were heterosexual, at all (soul artists, girl groups, pop/rock artists, psychedelic artists). So when I will listen to Kazaschstan music, I will officially had an impact on Kazaschstan music, ha ha, and it will have a label: "RockandDiscoFanCZ" and many other listeners also created this kind of music, but I'm so irrelevant right now (just like lesbians on this article). RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 23:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The statement in the Electric Circus article claiming influence on disco culture is not sourced. It is a poor article because the the material not sourced or uses poor sources. But lets assume that your claim is true. That is one club that catered to hippies that was influential. You can not make a claim that the hippie movement as a whole was influential. There were dozens then hundreds of black and gay proto disco clubs so making a general statement of black and gay influence is accurate, making it about hippies is not. You claim there were shemales etc in the audience but again have you no sources for that claim. What I do know is that the multiple sources we do have including ""Out in Culture: Gay, Lesbian and Queer Essays on Popular Culture" all use the word gay not LBGT and not hippie.

Your have a serious but understandable misunderstanding of how Wikipedia articles should be written. We do not print things because they are true, we do not print things because it seems to make sense (Its a gay club there must have been shemales, lesbians etc in them).and we do not assume other editors are doing things for negative reasons like prejudice. We print material only because they are verified by reliable sources.

You need to read and understand these basic Wikipedia policies Wikipedia:Verifiability,Wikipedia:No original research,Wikipedia:Reliable sources,Wikipedia:Assume good faith. After that find a good source for the Electric Circus claim add a line about the club and its influence. Same thing with the broad LGBT. But if you can not find these sources you can't change the article.

I know I have been a bit harsh or forceful here and I am sorry it had to be that way. When I started editing here I made many of the same mistakes and poor assumptions that you are making I had to be "corrected" more then a few times. Truth be told sometimes I still have to be corrected, so I get it. Wikipedia policies are onerous. Peace and have a good weekend Edkollin (talk) 07:33, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and what about now? Look .. Electric Circus (nightclub) nah, forget it. Yo Homes.. To Bel-Air Seriously,

it seems to me, that we don't understand each other. I say: "look at sources 12, 13". Here it is, just for you: http://www.wwnorton.com/college/music/rockhistory/outlines/ch09.htm , http://www.discomusic.com/clubs-more/6363_0_6_0_C/ , http://www.villagevoice.com/2001-07-10/news/disco-double-take/2 (last one just refers to "hippie pulse" on that disco music), and please don't remove hippies. If you don't like it, so why don't you just put "citation needed" tag next to the hippie word?

My english "communication" skills are limited in this cause so I will not answer all of your "questions" and claims, but I think that gay and hippie sources are so balanced, just look:

• ^ a b (2007) The 1970s, ISBN 9780313339196, p.203–204:
• ^ (1995) Out in Culture: Gay, Lesbian and Queer Essays on Popular Culture, ISBN 9780304334889,
• ^ (1998) "The Cambridge History of American Music", ISBN 0521454298

three gay references.

and hippies have villagevoice.com, discomusic.com and wwnorton.com.. seems solid. Finally, hippies have website references and gay have book references.

BTW 2. Source No. 5 says: "and the scene's combination of overwhelming sound, trippy lighting, and hallucinogens was indebted to the late-'60s psychedelic culture". Sounds familiar, 'cause.. you know.. psychedelic culture is linked with hippies as well as hippie culture (= psychedelic culture is the same) is linked with (co-)creation of Disco music (and also culture with so trippy and groovy scene.. and rainbows, because gays created disco too).

BTW 3 .. oh don't forget about Psychedelic soul (you know Hippie proto-disco artists - include your Sly & The Family stone.. or somewhat that), this kind of music was also influenced disco music [1].

So, whats now? RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 18:01, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

The Village Voice reference is not a small one man but an excellent one. Simon Reynolds is a major music journalist. I changed "hippie" to psychedelic because that is mostly what was being discussed. Psychedelic culture was a part or a sub genre of the hippie culture. It did not define the culture as a whole. There were hippies that were not into psychedelic music and clothing. Some were into folk music, others Indian music, and many dressed down and very un psychedelic (See photographs of the crowd at Woodstock). And there was a large "back to the earth" or rural element to it that was the opposite of disco's urban roots. I added a bit of detail from the article in the early history. I even used the word hippie there. Allmusic was also a good reference. Many Wikipedia articles and Billboard use them. I added another early history line based on that cite. Another "hippie" thing you should look at is the free love movement for its influence. Edkollin (talk) 15:22, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

I see. Compromise.. also you're right! However "hippie culture" is the same as "psychedelic culture" (or subgenre if we say it correctly), but that's just point-of-view conflict, you know ;). P.S. but wasn't hippie "free love" a big contrast to disco subculture?.. you know.. hippie culture was full of drugs and love, but disco culture was full of drugs and sex. I mean.. it was not some kind of "save the world" campaign, many weird religious orthodox people call it "time of sodom", because of its wild parties on nightclubs and discothèques. | And thanks for hippies stuff adding to the disco article. RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 22:05, 10 August 2009 (UTC)

Point of View I don't think the hippie idea of disco sex was a "big contrast" to hippie "free love" but an evolvement. It all was casual sex. Be that as it may it is great when the talk pages work as they are supposed to. Edkollin (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Maybe. I just hear about "free love" movement, but I really don't know what is "free love" movement about. Yes, finally the talk pages are not useless. RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 20:05, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Free love Edkollin (talk) 07:14, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Considering I added "gay" to the first sentence, I'm ambivalent as to whether "gay" or "LGBT" is used. If disco was primarily just a gay male thing, then yeah, "LGBT" doesn't really apply because it overrepresents the demographic. But if it does, then I don't think it really matters whether "LGBT" is used or not, even if the term didn't exist in the early 1970s. Lexicon changes with time, and "LGBT" can be a translative term for what term was otherwise used (but possibly may or may not ever be used anymore) in the past. - Gilgamesh (talk) 02:27, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

First reference to disco music?

In the article, the following is stated with a reference:

"The first article about disco was written in September 1973 by Vince Aletti for Rolling Stone Magazine."

However, in the archives of this Talk page, we find this:

"The 1973 RS article used the compound `disco sound,' but the Oxford English Dictionary has references to `disco beat' as early as 1965."

I do not own a copy of the OED. It would be great if someone who does could check the references to "disco beat" (which might not be articles and, therefore, might not disprove the claim about Aletti's article), if any. If the unsigned comment added by 166.84.1.2 in the archives is accurate, it would be very interesting to see what was meant by the term in 1965, and I would think that we would probably want to include such references (again, if any) in this article.

Ikan Kekek (talk) 04:34, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't have the Oxford English Dictionary either. A few years ago when the rock and roll hall of fame had a traveling disco exhibit they made the claim for and had a copy of Aletti's article. Discotheque was in common use by 1965 so it is possible somebody used "disco beat" in 1965. But there was nothing resembling disco music in 1965 as there was in 1973. Edkollin (talk) 21:12, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Maybe this ? May 1965 - The trendy Arthur opens in NY. It was here that DJ Tery Noel became the first DJ to mix records(However I have heard many others claim to be the first).Edkollin (talk) 21:17, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The "article" says that disco music was around since the late 1960s yet later it says that the very first disco music was around in 1973 or 1974. Someone should edit this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.162.251.253 (talk) 09:17, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

That is not what it says but I could see where the language is confusing. Will change it Edkollin (talk) 05:00, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Backlash section

I did a major rewrite with the idea of putting one topic per paragraph. During the rewrite I came across material that was making the same point twice. When that happened I just left the quote from an actual person in. I renamed the section to reflect what was in the section. While I took out the sentence saying that there was not a focused backlash in Europe it was not because I think of it as unimportant. It was just that it is not great style to write about what did not happen and this section is about a US phenomenon. As I noted in the comments the various incarnations of Eurodisco need there own section(s). As I understand it there was some anti disco feeling in the UK among skinheads and the like but it never got to the level it did in the US. If cited material about this and other anto disco feeling elsewhere comes up the section could be renamed back. Edkollin (talk) 15:34, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Rearranged things to put reasons on bottom. Added subsection and External listing to so that this article finally deals seriously with the racism and homophobia allegations against backlash supporters. Edkollin (talk) 05:06, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

Many of the Trojan and RASH Skins love soul music, but never disco. In Britain, DIsco was often criticised by the punks, but they osften supported reggae too. (Chris Henniker (talk) 22:37, 18 July 2010 (UTC))

The criticism by British punks of Disco and their like of reggae is noted in the "Factors" subsection of the "Backlash and Decline" section. Nothing about UK skinhead reaction to disco is in the article. You can try and find reliable sourcing and add it to the article. Edkollin (talk) 22:56, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

It's clear (especially to those of us who were there in that time period) that the backlash was a part of a much larger cultural backlash associated with the conservative revolution; and that the whole situation was just one of yet another of the theaters where the proxy fight between the conservatives and liberals were (and still are) being fought -- with the problems during the times of the Carter administration at the center of it all. This is especially apparent with the tie-in of the musical genre to the gay, urban and black scenes, and the exaggerated white, suburban, machismo aspect of the opposing genres (urban cowboy, punk, etc.). These are also the alignments that emerged from the 1980's onward between the partisan groups that, in the US, eventually aligned themselves with the Democratic (liberal) and Republican (conservative) parties.

We need more references and discussion to link this to the broader context of the times; for example: the timing of the Death of Disco relative to Carter's Malaise Speech, the Iran crisis, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.136.26.17 (talk) 13:28, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

M&M photo

The M&M photo, captioned "Saturday Night Fever's impact on culture," is highly questionable. It's a photo of something that's around now and wasn't around until a few years ago, at most - at least in New York. I think the caption is anachronistic and an inaccurate inference, and therefore, that the photo and caption should be deleted. Ikan Kekek (talk) 02:59, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Discofunk

Wikipedia currently lacks article on discofunk. I even doubt this genre existed, but I use this term for tracks like NYC Peach Boys - Don't Make Me Wait, I mean four-to-the-floor disco-like music but without orchestras, without soulful disco vocals but with a typical funk pattern instead (many wah-wah guitars, funky horns, simple to monotonic to declamative funky vocals etc.) that was kinda popular around 1977-1982. What is the right term for such music? -- 217.21.43.222 (talk) 08:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

• We would call it Funk Rock
• The Peech Boys - Biography at Allmusic
• Peech Boys Edkollin (talk) 05:10, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Or we would call it "Club/Dance-Pop/Rock-Electronic-Garage-Post-Disco" (: RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 18:55, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks to your efforts, I have found some information on that mysterious type of music called "disco funk". It is in the article on Boogie you had provided as a source for Post disco article. The other explanation of what disco funk could be has been found in one serious book on R&B music. So I am probably going to make an article about it in some time. To uncover its meaning, disco funk is described either as "acoustic" funk of the 1980s, or as "typical" 1980s funk music. So that song by Peech Boys qualifies as disco-funk, yes -- Appletangerine un (talk) 11:56, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Ehm? Sorry? This talk page is about disco, not post-disco/RcB/"boogie" (boogie[-woogie] is a piano-styled music that influenced Rock & Roll/Rockabilly). Disco music is a funky-psychedelia music with orchestras and big bands, disco-funk is a fusion (music) style of disco and funk. Peech Boys were active after the Disco Demolition Night, so they're not disco. It's my POV opinion. Maybe this band is heavy metal (if you have reliable source, so... it can be everything - it depends on sources/references). RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 16:30, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

This article is hardly neutral

Why are there so many quotes and pespectives from a punk perspective about an article on disco, when the material on disco reads like a litany of meaningless facts and song placement. It would seem an article on disco would have more personal anecdotes and quotes from the people in the disco scene rather than perspectives from the punk scene. Is this a article on disco or how disco is/was perceived, namely by people who werent even born yet and insist punk has some, or really any kind, of current cultural relevance, which everyone knows it doesnt. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Redneckriverdude (talk • contribs) 05:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

I left the "punk subculture" backlash material in as unlike a lot of the material in the section and the article as a whole it was reliably sourced. I do have to question the weight given to it as it was a insignificant part of the US music scene during this era Edkollin (talk) 18:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

The "Chart Topping Songs","1978-1980 Pop Preeminence" and "Resurgence" sections are hard to read as they are basically lists. These could be covered in a list article(s). This section should read something like "Disco accounted for 60% of the number 1 songs during", "The Bee Gees had 10 number 1 songs 25 in the charts overall", Donna Summer etc".(The figures are not accurate but put in to make my point) Edkollin (talk) 15:18, 10 October 2009 (UTC) Edkollin (talk) 18:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Disco was more influential on New Wave than on Post-punk —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rivet138 (talk • contribs) 22:32, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Then find reliable sources for that claim and create a big section for New Wave otherwise it is just original research.Edkollin (talk) 05:17, 6 December 2009 (UTC)

Disco is gay music?

This article stands very strange position about Disco origins. I guess music is made by musicians, so if 99% of proto-disco musicians were gay, disco should be a gay music for gays & the whole organisation. Sly and The Family Stone, Isaac Hayes, Willie Hutch, MFSB, Jerry Butler, Jimi Hendrix, Manu Dibango, Harold Melvin, Bee Gees (well...), etc = not gay (I have some fine references If you want). This is just strange, gays made a musical genre, but they're NOT gays? RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 19:48, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what you mean. But from my own understanding, disco music started as a sort of blend of musical genres that were fashionable to gay, black and Latino communities. Many of the earliest adopters were gay, but not all of them were. So yeah, it's gay music, partially. It appealed to multiple groups. - Gilgamesh (talk) 20:33, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Wow, that was fast! It makes sense, yes... + hippie communities to be correct. Thank you for answering my question. RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 20:52, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Merry Christmas. That is why the language about "clubs that catered to" is used. Edkollin (talk) 00:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, merry christmas to you too. Yeah, it's (also) about culture not music (so disco is not black/gay/hispanic/hippie music, disco is just music for everyone). RockandDiscoFanCZ (talk) 15:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

notes

sorry for the recent edit on unreliable source, i forgot to add WP:NPOV (WP:NPA). Using slangs can be considered personal attacks.

Layout of invalid citation

• WP:NPOV
  • WP:RS
    • usage: (WP:SYN) — type: etymological
    • connections: (WP:NPA) — reason: slang

--173.183.102.184 (talk) 06:27, 25 January 2010 (UTC)

POSSIBLE ERROR

***QUOTE*** Some notable professional dance troupes of the 1970s included Pan's People and Hot Gossip. For many dancers, the primary influence of the 1970s disco age is still predominantly the film Saturday Night Fever (1977). This developed into the music and dance style of such films as Fame (1980), Flashdance (1983),"The Last Days of Disco"(1998), and the musical A Chorus Line (1975). It also helped spawn dance competition tv shows such as Dance Fever (1979).***QUOTE***

How can the musical A Chorus Line (1975) have had its dance styles influenced by Saturday Night Fever (1977)?

I'm just kinda wondering.

Removed ", and the musical A Chorus Line(1975)"

~BlueDrache August 18, 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by BlueDrache (talk • contribs) 02:36, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Disco present

Katy Perry's California Gurls, Shakira's She Wolf and Lady Gaga's Alejandro are called disco. I don't know what the name of the genre is, but disco sounds different. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.176.85.160 (talk) 20:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Feel free to delete or put citation needed warnings on anything not reliably sourced. This article needs a editor(s) to watch over it daily. I do this for several genre articles. There are unsourced sections that need to be rewritten from scratch. I don't have time for the invariable edit wars that will follow, or to do the research to find reliable sourcing needed to put material back in. Edkollin (talk) 04:23, 19 September 2010 (UTC)

Is this article written like a personal reflection or essay and may it require cleanup

I don't think this article is written like a personal reflection or essay and may require cleanup.Jeena Ozero Capulet (talk) 09:37, 5 October 2010 (UTC).

The article being written like a personal reflection or essay is one of the few problems this article does not have. The other warnings are more then justified. Edkollin (talk) 21:43, 7 October 2010 (UTC)

That covers everybody

"Disco was used as a reaction by New York City's gays as well as blacks, Latinos and heterosexuals...". Doesn't that cover pretty much everybody, excepting a few Caucasian and Asian bisexuals? 208.65.73.105 (talk) 17:06, 29 June 2011 (UTC)

That was vandalism that unfortunately was allowed to stand. It meant Wikipedia was printing a complete untruth for god knows how long that totally misled the reader as to what happened. It was homosexuals who were one of the main communities that started and was the early fan base for disco and it was them who was largely excluded from rock music the dominant genre of the era. Edkollin (talk) 21:17, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

First Musical Reference To Disco?

I remember the Disco era and always thought of it in terms of the early 70s start period and hitting its peak in the later 70s. That all makes sense until you look at these lyrics form the Kinks "Dedicated Follower Of Fashion" from 1966: …Oh yes he is (oh yes he is), oh yes he is (oh yes he is). His world is built 'round DISCOTEQUES and parties. This pleasure-seeking individual always looks his best 'Cause he's a dedicated follower of fashion… — Preceding unsigned comment added by Warwren01 (talk • contribs) 18:51, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

The word "DISCOTEQUE" originated in France in the 1940's and 1950's and was commonly used to describe places with DJ played music in the U.S. and UK by the 1960's. The Disco music genre which this article is about started later as documented in the article. Disco music was named because the music was designed for DISCOTEQUE's/disco's. Edkollin (talk) 02:18, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Jimmy Saville claims to have organised the first "disc only night" disc'o' in 1943/44 in Leeds [2] [3], where he played 78's of the big bands of the time. MBorrill (talk) 20:57, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Cleanup

Additional citations

Why and where does this article need additional citations for verification? What references does it need and how should they be added? Hyacinth (talk) 00:58, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Example farm

Why and where does this article include excessive, poor or irrelevant examples? Which should be removed and why? Hyacinth (talk) 01:01, 29 October 2011 (UTC)

Additional Citations: In an article that complies with Wikipedia guidelines everything written must be reliably sourced. In this article there are whole paragraphs that are not sourced and whole sections where only a sentence or two is sourced.

Excessive, poor or irreverent examples: I do not think there are many poor or irreverent examples but there is an extremely excessive amount of examples making it difficult to read because section after section is an endless lists of songs (with no reliable sources claiming they are disco). This is an article about the disco genre. This is not supposed to be an listing article. We have such an article. Examples should be just there to demonstrate a concept and in this case the examples should limited to a few notable/prominent/influential songs that demonstrate a concept.

In this genre article about New Wave in the Overview section notice how 3-6 examples are used to demonstrate subgenres such as ska and power pop. Notice how the article is in the overview section discussing "New Wave Music" not just listing New Wave songs. Notice how every sentence is sourced sometimes twice. Notice how in this genre article about synthpop recently designated as a Wikipedia "Good Article" again a limited amount of prominent examples are used to demonstrate concepts and everything is sourced.

There are decent sections here, Early History, Influence on other music (needs some more sources). But the middle part the chart topping songs need to be erased and rewritten to something like "40% of the songs in 1975 were disco, the top sellers were" etc. Edkollin (talk) 22:09, 4 November 2011 (UTC)