Talk:Diverging diamond interchange

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Dates wrong?[edit]

Either the date for the Missouri interchange or Google street view is wrong. http://maps.google.com/maps?q=I-44+and+Route+13,+springfield,+missouri&hl=en&ll=37.214199,-93.311477&spn=0.011381,0.065103&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=52.240038,133.330078&t=h&hnear=Missouri+13+%26+Interstate+44+Business,+Springfield,+Greene,+Missouri+65802&z=15&layer=c&cbll=37.214186,-93.311469&panoid=wVWxeYT3eBU5UYYYkqLJmQ&cbp=11,262.47,,0,-3.32 says August 2009. It doesn't show the new imagry from the Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.88.135 (talk) 02:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)

The link provided is at the intersection of Business Route I-44, not the intersection at the actual Interstate noted in the article.--75.31.191.6 (talk) 13:19, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Untitled[edit]

I removed the Kansas City link as its shows only a diamond interchange. I do not believe this is helpful to the article and the information provided in the main text is, in my opinion, adequate for providing the proposed location. Just let me know if you disagree. --Thisisbossi 10:28, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Baltimore Link at Bottom of Page[edit]

The interchange at *39°21′03″N 76°29′48″W / 39.350876°N 76.496601°W / 39.350876; -76.496601 is not a diverging diamond, rather it is a stack modified with left-hand exits, similar to one in Rochester. As a result, I have removed this erroneous entry. Snickerdo 02:49, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I had added it because the movements are the same, though it is completely grade-separated rather than signalised. I feel it belongs, but I'll let it go unless anyone else feels the same. --Thisisbossi 10:31, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
It is certainly a unique interchange, but kind of goes against the idea of a diverging diamond because all directions are free-flow. A note about this interchange would certainly be a worthwhile addition to the stack article, however. Snickerdo 22:23, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
I am not sure I could call that a stack though. It really doesnt have the lanes stacking on top of each other. Rather it is low lying and offers the advantage of not having a lot of height but able to squeze into it rather easily. In Grand Rapids, MI we have a similar one and it is in the middle of the downtown. Our downtown at the time had very few tall buildings so they used this design to keep it lower. Personally I think if we metion it I would put it in the cloverleaf interchange since it has 8 ramps. --Mihsfbstadium 23:41, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
But then, using your definition of what they are, stack interchanges are merely a subset of the more generic 4-way [semi] directional interchange. e.g. I-64 & I-270 in St. Louis never exceeds 3-levels; I-94/I-90 & I-290 in Chicago is only 2-levels and is more characteristic of a pinwheel. Topology shows that all these interchanges function in the same way. --Millbrooky 06:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Except there are no loops, therefore no cloverleaves. Personally, I've taken to calling these "Diverging Stack Interchanges" and I've since become aware of quite a number of these. They are by no means common, but I wouldn't say that they are particularly rare, either. Another such example is the interchanges of I-20, I-59, and I-65 in Birmingham, Alabama. Might this be an interchange configuration deserving of its own article? --Bossi (talk ;; contribs) 05:42, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Or another idea for what these interchanges should be called: "Weaving Stack Interchange". They do seem to form a basket weave of sorts. --Millbrooky 06:07, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The specific interchange is between Interstate 196 and US 131, both freeways, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. US 131 has the weave. Pbrower2a (talk) 06:23, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

History[edit]

GalootRob recently added a mention that a Gilbert Chlewicki "first introduced" this concept. While the paper appears to give the impression that this is correct, I must nonetheless wonder how the Versailles interchange was constructed prior to 2003 if this configuration hadn't been invented yet? Would it be more correct to say "first introduced into the United States", perhaps? ...But even moreso, it may be more accurate only to say that he was first to present a paper on it within the United States, as surely Americans would have been aware of a new interchange configuration in use over in Versailles. We share all sorts of info when it comes to feats of transport engineering. --Thisisbossi 23:12, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

OK, after checking with the author I have a bit more understanding. Yes, Versailles came first; but he's the first one who really got to thinking about potential applications in America. I've modified the history a bit to hopefully better reflect this. --Thisisbossi 05:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

The history states there is only one unique example of this type of crossings.. However, I know of at least 2 others in France: exit 19 on the A1 (Seclin) and exit 5 on the A4 (Le Perreux). Might be interesting to change this. 130.138.227.11 (talk) 17:09, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks! I am not sure which of the three came first and second... I'll add them in and tweak the article accordingly. This is a fine example of how much more communication transportation engineers need both domestic and abroad! I may have to throw these two interchanges onto my sight-seeing list for next year... --Bossi (talkgallerycontrib) 22:49, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Overcrossings?[edit]

Text under Advantages states, "It reduces the number of lanes for overcrossing or bridges..." What's an "overcrossing" and how exactly would it differ from a bridge? Or is that just redundant? --Wlindley (talk) 01:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Updates[edit]

Construction has started on the new DDI at I-270 and Dorsett Road in St. Louis County.

70.133.171.247 (talk) 19:02, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

Animation on Youtube[edit]

There are - imho - illustrative animations on youtube, e.g. you tube com/watch?v=VOVcf0xoA0g Maybe someone who's allowed to might want to add it? 95.115.97.201 (talk) 21:55, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Use in North America[edit]

The "Use in North America" section is bordering on example farm territory. Perhaps this could be broken out to a list of diverging diamond interchanges article? It's the least readable portion of this article, which probably explains why the proposed DDI in Rochester was listed twice. —Mrwojo (talk) 04:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

A new diamond has just been completed in Rochester New York, at the intersection of South Winton Road and I-590. (24.105.183.2 (talk) 13:51, 11 September 2012 (UTC))

Adjusted content accordingly. --Chaswmsday (talk) 16:37, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

The interchange between I-196 and US-131 in Grand Rapids, Michigan[edit]

In Grand Rapids, the interchange between I-196 and US-131 resembles a diverging diamond interchange, in that US-131 crosses over itself twice. Unlike a diverging diamond, however, this crossover uses overpasses instead of traffic lights, and the interchange has eight completely separate ramps instead of four Y-shaped ramps. All of the left-turning ramps exit on the left and merge on the left. Should this interchange be mentioned in the article? Here's the interchange on Google Maps: https://maps.google.com/?ll=42.973224,-85.676794&spn=0.013659,0.036135&t=m&z=15Tanner Swett (talk) 04:35, 25 April 2013 (UTC)

In a way, its seems most similar to what is called in Wikipedia a "diverging windmill" interchange: the former configuration at the northeast I-95/I-695 interchange near Baltimore, MD ([1], [2]). -- Except that US 131 doesn't crossover. One of the roadgeek sites calls the old Maryland example a "twister". IMO, the Grand Rapids interchange is probably best characterized as a hybrid, as it's most likely too rare to be given a formal name. If it merits specific mention, it should probably be made under interchange (road) with the rest of the "freeway" to "freeway" hybrids. --Chaswmsday (talk) 17:43, 4 May 2013 (UTC)
All right, it seems to me like the type of interchange in Grand Rapids is probably neither common enough nor unique enough to be worth a mention. Thanks for your comments. —Tanner Swett (talk) 02:16, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I-196/US 131 was recently added back to this article as an example of a double crossover merging interchange. It's similar to the Baltimore interchange's current configuration. I don't believe it's a DCMI, either, as DCMIs represent a freeway/minor road interchange and the configuration is different. I don't know what I was thinking above: I meant to say that I-196 doesn't crossover, US 131 does. Per my comments, reverting edit. --Chaswmsday (talk) 14:55, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Converting North American sections to tables[edit]

I was thinking, rather than lists attempting to be prose, would it not be best to convert the sections listing usages in North America to tables? We may even want to split it off into its own article as the number of DDIs in North America continues to grow. Perhaps something like this:

Missouri (example table)

City Intersection Date opened Notes
Springfield I-44 at Route 13 June 21, 2009 First diverging diamond interchange in the United States
Kansas City Route 150 at Botts Road December 5, 2012 Construction included a new bridge for the interchange

I'd love to hear some feedback on this. This could definitely improve the layout of the article, but I'm sure there's some amount of controversy to be had. Jon (aka Blurred203) holler 03:32, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

I'd love to take work on this project to a subpage for completion, by the way, since mixing tables with prose for the same type content could certainly be jarring to users. Again, any and all feedback will be much appreciated. Jon (aka Blurred203) holler 03:57, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Do we need a comprehensive list? Why can't a non-exhaustive list of examples be just as educational to readers on what a diverging diamond is. We don't have a list of all of the diamond interchanges, all of the cloverleaves or all of the SPUIs, so such a list here is overkill. Imzadi 1979  20:46, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
This is true...thanks for your input. As the use of DDIs in North America is still relatively new, and there are not that many, I would suggest we keep the list, or perhaps split it off into a "List of..." article. As the use of DDIs becomes normalized, I'd be fine with disposing of the list...but as of now, I almost feel it should be kept for the more adventurous readers. The table would also be much less exhaustive than reading prose on each DDI. Jon (aka Blurred203) holler 23:31, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
Also, I do agree that the "future" list is overkill, especially for stalled projects. At the very minimum, those probably need to be cut, regardless of what happens with the present DDIs. Jon (aka Blurred203) holler 23:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
I don't think an exhaustive list is needed, neither as a "List of" split from this article nor as an embedded list here. Michigan left does not contain a full list of them, even though they're still pretty rare outside of Michigan where they are pretty common in the southern part of the state. Imzadi 1979  00:05, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I still don't see how it's exhaustive. There really aren't that many...the prose just makes it look that way. If we're going to keep the "listing" (if you will), the prose needs to go, in my opinion. Jon (aka Blurred203) holler 03:08, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Exhaustive = attempts to list every example. This article is trying to have an exhaustive list, which, when, there were only a few cases, was appropriate. Anyway, I agree that this should be cut down a lot. "Uses in North America" should be "Use in North America" and list the notable examples. I'd include the first DDI in Missouri and limit the prose to a discussion of how the concept spread to other states and provinces. I would limit this discussion to the first examples in other jurisdictions, or any that are notable for other reasons. The entire future section should be gutted, unless there are examples notable for some reason. By notable, I'm not employing the Wikipedia definition of coverage in third-party secondary sources, but rather the idea that there is something special that sets them apart, makes them worthy of noting. Imzadi 1979  03:43, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
Apologies for the late response, been busy with school. It might be best to dispose of the future use section altogether, and switch the "Use in North America" section down to known special usages, not only in North America but also abroad. Jon (aka Blurred203) holler 05:30, 11 December 2013 (UTC)

Globalize tag[edit]

The first ones were built in France. This is covered in the History section. A number have recently been built in North America. Unless more have been built outside of North America, I'd like to hear why the tag is warranted. --Triskele Jim 02:14, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

It seems disproportional. There is one mention of the one in France then a huge list of US examples. --AdmrBoltz 02:23, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
If diverging diamonds are being used elsewhere and are not included, then the globalize tag is valid. If all the examples except the few in France are on the US, is it really disproportionate? The list is getting a bit long, but I think they are still uncommon enough that the examples are usefull. --Triskele Jim 03:13, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
The number is still growing. Important to know, France has built minimum 3 pcs in the 1970ies. The better design came up 2009 in the US. It is also important where and how the technic is beeing known and built. Many don't see the benefits and the better performance. --Hans Haase (talk) 01:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

RfC: Regarding the North American sections[edit]

There is a clear consensus for option 5. Armbrust The Homunculus 12:57, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Per the two above sections, I feel it is necessary to get some community-wide input on what to do (if anything) with the two sections in the article regarding the uses of DDIs. Should one or both sections be kept and improved, should one or both sections be reduced, or should one or both sections be removed completely? 203 22:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Extra information[edit]

Since there are two issues at hand here, I've created 6 "bold-able" options to keep the discussion easy to follow.

  • Option 1: Take no action; leave both sections as-is.
  • Option 2: Keep all content in both sections and improve the global coverage.
  • Option 3: Keep (and improve global coverage in) the current Uses section as-is, and reduce the Future section to verifiably notable uses.
  • Option 4: Reduce both sections to verifiably notable uses.
  • Option 5: Reduce the current Uses section to verifiably notable uses, and remove the Future section entirely.
  • Option 6: Entirely remove both sections.
  • Option 7: Create a Section "History" and ans sepratated article e.g. "list of DDIs" --Hans Haase (talk) 14:05, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

All input is very much appreciated! To keep the discussion easy to follow, please place your "vote" only in the Survey section below, and if you have additional comments, please place those remarks in the Threaded discussion section. Thanks again!

Survey[edit]

  • Option 5 203 22:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Option 5 --AdmrBoltz 22:58, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Option 4 Dough4872 01:29, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Option 5 which is essentially what I said in previous discussions, oppose creation of any list under Option 7. Imzadi 1979  19:28, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

Discussion[edit]

  • Option 5 - Per the discussion two sections up, the Future uses section seems to contribute very little to the article and is a breeding ground for WP:CRYSTAL violations. In addition, many of the current uses outlined in the article are not especially notable. Therefore, the current Uses section should be reduced to unique construction processes, first occurrences, and other notable interchanges; the Future uses section should be removed entirely. 203 22:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Option 4 - Only include notable uses (such as the first diverging diamond interchange in a state) backed by references for current and future diverging diamond interchanges. Dough4872 01:38, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
  • Any list created per the recently added Option 7 would be a mess to maintain, and it wouldn't be terribly encyclopedic. Our job is to describe the concept with a few examples for illustration. To attempt to catalog every instance of a type of interchange is folly. Imzadi 1979  19:31, 18 December 2013 (UTC)
  • here are more references, making a better decission: http://attap.umd.edu/UAID_gss.php?UAIDType=22&iFeature=8 --Hans Haase (talk) 13:17, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Use and disambiguation of locations within citations[edit]

In this version of the article, I had Toledo, Ohio and Wilmington, North Carolina, wikilinked, as location parameters within two citations. @Imzadi1979 changed these to unlinked "Toledo, OH" and "Wilmington, NC", with the reasons "state abbreviations are standard in citations, and the wikilinked publication name will have the full state name if necessary". @Imzadi79 did not show where abbreviations were held as a standard. When I pointed out that Template:Cite news spells out state names in locations in its listed examples. @Imzadi1979 criticized the examples, stating that "cited examples also include locations/publishers for non ambiguous/unnecessary cases". Well, I'm not an editor who tries to bludgeon other editors with the "laws" of Wikipedia.

My contention is as follows: Following @Imzadi1979's argument to its logical conclusion, use of location parameters at all would be unnecessary, since the wikilinked publication name would ultimately allow a reader to find the location. However, the Wikipedia community has determined that locations are relevant when not readily apparent from the publication name. Both Toledo and Wilmington require disambiguation. Use of US-specific state abbreviations such as "OH" and "NC" are unhelpful for non-US readers. Absent the citation of any Wikipedia "law" specifically allowing for such abbreviations, I'll follow the guidance in Cite news and use the full state names. --Chaswmsday (talk) 16:04, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

I commented about this on Chaswmsday's talk page yesterday, where I said,

they are typically abbreviated. The Publication Manual of the American Psychological Association (6th ed.) says to abbreviate them in the reference list (§6.30, p. 187). The MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers (7th ed.) says to abbreviate them in "documentation" (§7.3, p. 236). The Chicago Manual of Style (16th. ed.) says they are usually abbreviated in bibliographies while they should be spelled out in running text (§10.28, p. 498).

Now the problem with the examples from the doc page for {{cite news}} is that they are illustrating bad practices contradicted by Help:CS1#Work and publisher. The doc page shows "The Seattle News (Seattle, Washington: The Seattle Times Company)." According to the help page, the location is assumed by the newspaper name, and the publisher is superfluous as it repeats the name of the paper. (Specifically, it says to omit the location and publisher in cases like The New York Times, New York and The New York Times Company.) So as I said, in cases where Wikipedia is contradictory, I will default to established style guides, like the APA, MLA, and Chicago guides. In all cases on-wiki though, there is no "do not abbreviate state names in citations", in fact, MOS:ABBR#Special considerations says this is common practice. In fact, we have several places in the MOS that says we can/should use abbreviations in infoboxes, dates, units of measurement to save space, and both tables and citations are typically given as examples of places to save space. Imzadi 1979  22:09, 9 April 2014 (UTC)