Talk:Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine

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AACOM definition[edit]

Based on the description by the "italic" American Association of Colleges of Osteopathic Medicine "italic" Doctors of Osteopathic Medicine provide a holistic approach in diagnosing their patients. They see each person as more than just a collection of organ systems and body parts that may become injured or diseased. One key concept osteopathic medical students learn is that structure influences function. Thus, if there is a problem in one part of the body’s structure, function in that area, and possibly in other areas, may be affected. [1]Vishwajraval (talk) 00:28, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I edited the definition I think the phrase that I added into the definition makes the definition better. The link is right at the end if you want to check it outVishwajraval (talk) 21:21, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
It seems extremely undue in the lede, and the claims appear to be rather dubious, possibly a WP:FRINGE violation. --Ronz (talk) 22:01, 5 May 2014 (UTC)
Agree that it's undue. The content put in by Wishwajraval could be more terse anyway. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 22:11, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

I added the second section on this sentence. Doctors of Osteopathic medicine are distinguished by their ability to diagnose a patient by taking the holistic approach to come to conclusion about their patients. I found a good reference on — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vishwajraval (talkcontribs) 00:08, 10 May 2014‎

Looking over Holism#Medicine, it appears to mean something different in medicine than how it was presented in the article. It looks like AACOM is using it correctly, while the information added to the article was using an incorrect definition. --Ronz (talk) 00:41, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Primary sources in lead re: pseudoscientific[edit]

There are primary sources in the relating to the 'pseudoscientific' aspect of OM which relies on an editorial and an op-ed piece. These primary sources should be removed. DVMt (talk) 14:31, 16 May 2014 (UTC)

They are commentary on the DO syllabus (which is primary): secondary sources. Please review WP:PST. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 14:34, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
[1] This is an editorial in the JAOA. This [2] is a op-ed in forbes. Neither qualify as a review. DVMt (talk) 14:39, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
So what? These are not health claims and for pseudoscience WP:PARITY allows us considerable lassitude in our choice of source anyway. Please review the Talk page archives where this has been discussed at length. It looks like you are trying to remove criticism from the lede, which would make it misrepresent the body, and compromise the neutrality of this article. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 14:43, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Well, here [3] you stated that primary sources need not apply. I'm not doing anything that you suggest, other than follow the rules that are here. Where does it state in any review that OM is pseudoscience? If you're going to make a blanket statement than you need a better source. Also, thanks for acknowledging those sources were primary. You just proved my point that you were misleading in your edit summary. DVMt (talk)
They're not primary sources, they are secondary sources. They would not be WP:MEDRS for health claims, but they are more than RS for the text they support. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 15:00, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I think you're confused. Your sources aren't systematic reviews (secondary source) or derived from a textbook (tertiary source). Go back and read WP:MEDRS carefully. You're making a massive claim, OM=pseudo, a blanket statement. You'll need better sources or these ones needs to go. Can't have it both ways. DVMt (talk) 15:07, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
I'm quite clear, thanks. As I said, please review WP:PST. A secondary source "provides an author's own thinking based on primary sources, generally at least one step removed from an event. It contains an author's interpretation, analysis, or evaluation of the facts, evidence, concepts, and ideas taken from primary sources". Systematic reviews are types of secondary sources which are very good sources for health claims. Quackwatch (to pick an example) is generally a very good secondary source for describing health frauds. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 15:12, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Why are you reaching down when you can use the gold standard which is a pubmed indexed systematic review? Surely if OM/CM is pseudoscience you can find more than an op-ed and lay article. Also, are you suggest that OM/CM for LBP, for instance, is fringe and pseudoscientific?
Don't be silly, whether or not something is a pseudoscience cannot be determined by a systematic review, since this is a question of categorization, not of empirical medical evidence. Our policy requires that pseudoscience things be described as such; WP:PARITY gives guidance on the sources we can use. If you can find an even stronger source, the by all means include it. Notice, BTW, we also use Quackwatch (a kind of gold standard) in the article body. And there's more at our OMT article if you're interested. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 15:38, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
What exactly makes OM/CM pseudoscientific for the treatment of LBP? Was there ever an arbcom or some kind of ruling that stated unequivocally that OM/CM is pseudoscientific? DVMt (talk) 15:41, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
As per what WAID said, you shouldn't rely on a Forbes op-ed as the 'meat' of your proposition. Can you please point to be some kind of ruling that stated unequivocally that OM/CM is pseudoscientific? Thanks, DVMt (talk) 17:54, 16 May 2014 (UTC)
Paging Alexbrn (talk · contribs)! Your attention is requested please. DVMt (talk) 16:33, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── There seems to have been some confusion: Wikipedia is asserting nothing "unequivocally", but relaying the views as reported in the article body here, and more fully in our OMT article. The rationale for the wording used there was given by WAID some months back. Arbcom has no authority to rule on content. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 03:39, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

That's not the interpretation I'm getting. You said that the default position is skepticism, in line with Quackwatch. Just to make it clear: you think that a Forbes article and editorial is sufficient to label OM/CM pseudoscientific? If arbcom is not that right venue, then where is the proper venue to discuss this issue where manipulative therapies for MSK issues is pseudoscientific? DVMt (talk) 15:48, 18 May 2014 (UTC)
We're not discussing "manipulative therapies for MSK" (your idée fixe), but OMT - specifically OMT training. A distinct thing. Forbes is a reputable publication - how you any reason to doubt how it reports Salzberg's view? (he is a professor at Johns Hopkin, which seems to make him a notable enough critic). Are you really saying no critical view of OMT should be reported at all on Wikipedia? Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 17:49, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Forbes as a reliable medical source? We can do better. Criticism is of course permitted, but caution must be taken about making sweeping generalizations. When you want to make an extraordinary claim, you need extraordinary evidence. The criticism seems to be directed towards OMM (These techniques, known as osteopathic manipulative medicine (OMM),[1] have been criticized as "pseudoscientific".[15][16]". What happened to your statement at WAID that MM didn't equal fringe? Regards, DVMt (talk) 23:20, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
I think you just failed to address every point I made, except for agreeing criticism should not be obliterated. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 04:17, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
I did address your points and concerns. And now you're trying to get me to accept an appeal from authority from Salzberg. In the end, an op-ed doesn't suffice nor does an commentary. As Yobol described in a different page. ""All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the policy of the Editorial Board, or the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is clearly specified."
An appeal to authority is an argument tactic, so not relevant to the text in question. Salzberg, Bledsoe and Quackwatch are the three "critical" views we quote, all notable in their own way, giving this article a tiny proportion of its content as criticism. The lede summarizes the criticism given in the body and provides a courtesy citation just to Bledsoe and Salzburg. If you're saying these views shouldn't be here, then I disagree. This has been discussed ad nauseam before, and as was suggested then, dispute resolution may be a way to proceed if there is dispute. Feel free to initiate that if you wish. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 16:02, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy which you were asking me to do to give the Salzberg source some sort of legitimacy. Like WAID said, it's very much shaky referencing, should definitely be more robust rather than reaching down. I was simply asking you to clarify your stance. Also, I repeat All articles published, including editorials, letters, and book reviews, represent the opinions of the authors and do not reflect the policy of the Editorial Board, or the institution with which the author is affiliated, unless this is clearly specified."' Please address this point, Regards, DVMt (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring over the pseudoscientific delegation of OMM in the lede[edit]

I've already commented above how these sources are very weak to be making some a broad, sweeping generalization. And now there's back and forth edits wars. There does seem to be CON at this point, so best if we discussed it here. Regards, DVMt (talk) 16:57, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

Have you taken on board now that Wikipedia is reporting critics' views, and not making a "sweeping generalization"? The lede must summarize the body, as it now does. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 17:38, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Seems like this conversation kind of trailed off. Has a conclusion been reached here or not? Does everyone feel the issue has been resolved or not? TylerDurden8823 (talk) 06:30, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
It's not resolved. We're using an op-ed and a commentary to state OMM is bogus and pseudoscientific. Doc James has said that letters to the editor aren't good sources. So, my question is, if there's no better source (secondary, tertiary) then the opinions of these men aren't sufficient to state that OMM is completely bogus. Can you find a stronger source, Alex? DVMt (talk) 16:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Right, so you haven't taken on board that we are reporting views and not asserting facts. These are the (only) critical views of osteopath training. You are saying that all critical views should be deleted from the article, correct? Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 16:39, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Incorrect. What I'm stating is that the weight given to the critical sources should be based on the quality of the sources. Since these are on the poorer end of the spectrum, they can't be asserted as strongly as if they were published in a medical textbook or a systematic review. DVMt (talk) 16:41, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Side point correction-these views are criticizing the training of osteopathic physicians not osteopaths (Alex, just FYI these are commonly conflated terms, but they are not synonymous). Anyway, continue discussion. TylerDurden8823 (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
Thank you, Tyler. This is a critical distinction that gets conflated. Alex, do you disagree with Doc James' assertion that letters to the editor aren't good sources? I'm more moderate: 'it depends'. There is a lot contextual information that is needed. Nevertheless, it seems to be, and as per this discussion [4] that it's you have misunderstand what fringe is and how the sources should be used to describe a subject. Stating that OMM is pseudoscientific, is stating that osteopathic medicine is bogus. That's an over-reach. OMM is practiced by the same licensed physicians. DVMt (talk) 20:31, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

Including relevant criticism to osteopathic manipulative training is acceptable and appropriate, but I agree that outright accepting that osteopathic medical training is pseudoscience is an overreach in this case. Commentary from a few editors does not establish the fact of pseudoscience. However, we can still include those sources until a more reputable source emerges. Rytyho usa (talk) 00:32, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

How should we deal with this over-reach? Typically under MEDRS we use peer-reviewed literature, preferably 2ndary or 3ary sources. This is an op-ed in Forbes and a letter to the editor. So, extremely questionable sources to make such a massive claim. Hope to collaborate with you to move the needle forward! Neuraxis (talk) 00:58, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
To repeat, yet again: we are not asserting things here but relaying views. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 03:34, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
You don't to understand: this is an over-reach. This has been relayed by different editors. You confused osteopathy with osteopathic medicine. Errors are piling up. Neuraxis (talk) 12:49, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
No, we say OMT techiques "have been criticized as" pseudoscientific, not that they are (though I think we probably could, since that is not a seriously contested assertion). Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 13:02, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
You have concerned editors saying this is an over-reach. So, CON can change. Neuraxis (talk) 13:04, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
We have an editor arguing confusedly against an WP:NPOV article and a strong smell of WP:COI and WP:ADVOCACY. The small but significant amount of criticism contained in the article must be reflected in the lede; the fringe elements of osteopathy must be apparent per policy. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 13:10, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Making specious allegations and not assuming good faith is very uncouth, Alex. You didn't address any of my points. We know by another discussion that your personal interpretation of fringe has been debunked and rebutted. So, please try to avoid using the same logic pattern here as you did there. Thanks. Neuraxis (talk) 13:12, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
I don't think you have understood. If you think WP:FRINGE is misapplied you can raise this at WP:FT/N. Alexbrn talk|contribs|COI 13:17, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
Talking apples and oranges. We are specifically talking about an over-reach. Why are you ignoring my and Rytyho's concerns? Neuraxis (talk) 16:56, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
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