Talk:Drobnjaci

Inconsistency

The most notable brotherhoods (bratstva) of the clan are the Abazović, Cerović, Karadžić, Malović, Čupić, Kosorić, Jauković and Zarubica families. The brotherhoods of Vulovići, Đurđići, Kosorići, Tomići and Cerovići, were established when they settled in the Drobnjak from Banjani in the 17th century. The clan was originally formed by five related brotherhoods: Cerović, Đurđić, Kosorić, Tomić, Vulović and Žugić. The Drobnjaci are Serbian Orthodox in majority, the notably mixed Muslim/Serb family is Kalabić, the Muslim families are Selimović and Dzigal.

How can the brotherhoods that settled in the 17th century have also founded the clan that was mentioned since the 14th century?

For more on the legacy of the Drobnjak clan, and it's brotherhoods, here is an excerpt from the book from Stojan Karadžić and Vuk Šibalić: Drobnjak, the families and their ancestry, 1997. Unfortunately only in Serbian:

BRATSTVA U DROBNJAKU Današnja bratstva u Drobnjaku svrstaćemo u pet grupa prema vremenu doseljavanja, iseljavanja i nestajanja-izumiranja: STARINCE, NOVLJANE, USELJENIKE među Starince i Novljane, USKOKE (Šarance i Uskoke), i IZUMRLE i ISELJENE porodice iz Drobnjaka.

STARINCI (MANDIĆI, KUJUNDŽIĆI, MILAŠINOVIĆI, VUKOVIĆI, PEROVIĆI, DŽUKIĆI, BATIZIĆI)

Starinci ili starosjedioci su ona drobnjačka bratstva koja su se u Drobnjak doselila prije 16. vijeka. Iz jednog turskog dokumenta iz 1477. godine (Istorijski zapisi, knjiga 29), koji se odnosi na Hercegovački sandžak, da se vidjeti da je u Drobnjaku bilo 636 domova, pggo čini dobru naseljenost. Ovu grupu bratstava u Drobnjaku sačinjavali su: MANDIĆI, KUJUNDŽIĆI, MILAŠINOVIĆI, VUKOVIĆI, PEROVIĆI, DŽUKIĆI, BATIZIĆI i druga starosjedilačka bratstva u Drobnjaku.

NOVLJANI (VULOVIĆI, ĐURIĆI, TOMIĆI, KOSORIĆI, CEROVIĆI)

Predanje o Novljanima kazuje da je to najveće i najbrojnije srpsko pleme koje je organizovano došlo na Balkansko poluostrvo, prilikom doseljavanja Slovena iz stare postojbine. Prvo su se naselili na teritoriji Bosne, oko Novog i Travnika. Ima mišljenja da su po Novom dobili naziv Novljani. Predanje dalje kazuje da su se s ovih prostora pomjerali na jug i jugoistok i naselili hercegovačku oblast Banjane. Sa ostalim srpskim plemenima, Novljani su potisnuli starosjedilačko stanovništvo s ovih prostor a prema Tari i Morači i pritisnuli njihove predjele, koji su bili prostrani, a zahvatali su Banjane, dio Korjenića, Nikšićkih rudina, Nikšićkog polja, Drobnjak, dio Pive i Gornje Morače. Zaposjedanje ovako prostranih teritorija ukazuje na to da su Novljani bili brojno pleme. Oni se tada počnu razdvajati. Manji dio ostane u Banjanima i zadrži za svoje katune dio Pive između rijeke Komarnice i Pive, a na sjeveru do planine Milogore i rijeke Sušice, kao i masiv Durmitora sa ograncima. Dio Novljana, koji su ostali u Banjanima, prozovu se Banjani po, kako predanje kazuje, nekom Banu. Od ovih Banjana u Banjanima nema sada nikoga, a umjesto njih došle su nove porodice. Od banjskih Novljana u Pivi danas živi najveći dio pivskih porodica, koje potiču od braće Ruđa i Branila Lužnica. U Pivi i danas znaju koja su bratstva Ruđići, a koja Branilovići. Mnogo brojniji dio Novljana preselio se u Drobnjak i zauzeo prostrano zemljište koje je obuhvatalo predio od grada Onogošta do rijeke Tare, na sjeveru, i od današnje granice s Pivom do sela Granica i Miloševine u Gornjoj Morači. U Drobnjaku i danas živi tradicija o tome koje su porodice porijeklom Novljani, a koje su useljene među njih. U narednom izlaganju biće obuhvaćene i obrađene porodice za koje se zna da su porijeklom od Novljana.

Original Research

• but according to some researchers there are no direct sources to support Vlach colonization of these lands.
• This information is WP:OR, the source does not mention Drobnjaci, or area of Montenegro where Drobnjaci live, see source page 19,20.
• People from Drobnjaci.
• The informations has no confirmations in the sources, it is WP:OR. I suggest deleting this informations which violates Wikipedia's rules. Mikola22 (talk) 19:00, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

No problem if Ilona Charmanska is WP:OR then we should remove her from all wiki articles and since she is mentioning Vlachs in that area this is WP:RS either that or we remove any information including Vlachs from this article because they don't relate with article either. But please no double standards. Theonewithreason (talk) 19:00, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Ilona Charmanska is RS when she talks about the Vlachs in Bosnia or obout Vlachs in general(conclusion about the Vlachs). She in her paper the not mentioned Drobnjaci or Drobnjaci area of Montenegro and in this case it is OR. Mikola22 (talk) 19:16, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Drobnjaci were a tribe that had their territory in mostly parts of Herzegovina (Old Herzegovina) this part was incorporated into Montenegro only after Berlin Congress in 1878. And why did you remove a huge chunk of article without any concensus or checking for WP:veriability ? This is an obvious edit warring Theonewithreason (talk) 19:31, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

From the article: "in Old Herzegovina in Montenegro (municipalities from Nikšić to Šavnik, Žabljak and Pljevlja)". Therefore, these are places in the territory of Montenegro and have nothing to do with information from Ilona Charmanska source about migration of the Vlachs to Bosnia. Mikola22 (talk) 19:49, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Incorrect that is what is now Montenegro but the source was posted for the part what was in 14. and 15 Century , at the time that was by no means part of Montenegro. there cannot be double standards in which Charmanska is WP:RS in one article and WP:OR in another especially if the subject are Vlachs and they are mentiod in this article quite a lot. Theonewithreason (talk) 19:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

From the source: "as well as the majority of the population from Bosnia and Herzegovina in general". This is about the area of today's Bosnia and Herzegovina and conclusion for today Bosnia and Herzegovina. Source the not mentione Drobnjaci, Drobnjaci area(municipalities from Nikšić to Šavnik, Žabljak and Pljevlja) or Montenegro and it is OR. Mikola22 (talk) 20:08, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

I read the book myself and I know the source, Drobnjaci are part of Old Herzegovina tribes mentioned from few historians and like you posted "from Bosnia i Herzegovina in general" absolutely includes the tribes that were part of Herzegovina especially in old days ,that doesn't include political borders of today ,if you want to be specific like that we can also say that tribes in modern days don't exists but then the whole article loses it's meaning and lets not forget that the borders of every country shifted throughout history and that throught history most of the tribe members moved from one geographical part of Balkan to another and that goes for all . Theonewithreason (talk) 20:19, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Unfortunately RS does not mention Drobnjaci, Montenegro or Old Herzegovina. If we interpreted the sources in this way, we would enter into anarchy. It's OR and that information has no place in the article. You try reach consensus. that's all for now on my part. Mikola22 (talk) 20:41, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

But it mentions Vlachs if you wish we can delete the whole part of the article that mentions Vlachs since it also doesn't have in common with the tribe itself.

Also it would be appreciated that you and other editor stop deleting the content that stood here for a long time undisputed. This is very disrespectful to editors who created this article and I also noticed that none of them were included into discussion. Theonewithreason (talk) 20:53, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Sorry, but this is a classic example of WP:GAMING. You ignore obvious WP:SYNTH and WP:OR violation, while WP:STABLE has nothing to do with the revision because that policy is only limited to administrators context. Nevertheless WP:SILENCE consensus, it was undisputed because it is followed by a very limited number of editors which doesn't give you a right to WP:OWN an article. It was contested per WP:BRD and the weight was on you to respect other editors revert and start discussing your edit. The only one whose being disrespectful is you.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 21:23, 7 October 2020 (UTC) Blocked sock:Crovata.

Oh please if you really want to go in that way WP:GAMING is what you are doing, since it is obvious that this particular information does not go with your taste, 1) there is no question about WP:SYNTH because the information is according with the context of that part of the article, like I wrote it before, if you wish we can then delete this whole section about Vlachs since if any of you read the article a bit more carefully ,you will notice that there is mentioning that there were no information about the tribe in second half of 15. century and 16. century ,so we are only assuming the connection between those 2 parts,2) WP:OR sure if Charmanska is WP:OR you can test it on RsN or we can also start searching other articles and delete here from there too, about WP:OWN you are the one who acts like it eventhough it is obvious that your argumentation are insufficient ,WP:OWN is exactly what you and other editor did by deleting a whole parts of article without starting a discussion or reaching a consensus, so please you are the one who violated the rules not me, by not starting a discussion, did not reach a consensus for deletion, did not tested source on RsN and made disruptive editing 3 times in less than 24 Hours. Theonewithreason (talk) 22:25, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

And last thing for today , per WP:BRD we can now see that there are other editors and IPs that are disagreeing with your edits so I am not the only one who finds your reverts disrespectful. Theonewithreason (talk) 22:36, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

The foundation of WP:BRD/WP:STABLE or any other guideline is that the dispute is grounded in the different interpretation of the same material. You cited Czamańska (2016), who mentions neither the Drobnjaci nor anything that can be linked to your edits. Don't add Czamańska (2016) to the article. If an author doesn't mention a subject, don't edit-war in order to put forward a particular POV and don't file false reports against other editors.[1]--Maleschreiber (talk) 12:58, 8 October 2020 (UTC) Blocked sock:Crovata.

Difference between Vlachs and vlachs

Wikipedia is based on sources, sometimes those sources do not specify which vlachs are we exactly talking about. Drobnjaci are mentioned as Novljani as first. (talk) 22:00 03.January 2023 (UTC) Theonewithreason (talk) 22:00, 03 January 2023 (UTC)