Talk:Druid

Druid survivors and Secret Societies

Any ideas on druidic connections to some secret societies, namely the Freemasons? I've read about this several times, but would need to brush up on my details before posting anything significant. Any ideas on the theories that the group survived as a secret society, influenced secret societies or influenced the early church in any significant way? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solificus (talk • contribs) 16:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Answer: See Thomas Paines treatise on the subject.

One Example of which is published here:

http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/origin_free-masonry.html

Which concludes with:

" A false brother might expose the lives of many of them to destruction; and from the remains of the religion of the Druids, thus preserved, arose the institution which, to avoid the name of Druid, took that of Mason, and practiced under this new name the rites and ceremonies of Druids."

And with respect to the Druids influence upon the early church, there actually is a blurring between the early church, and the Druids. Some of the early Christian Saints, were actually Druids, themselves.

http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/Celtic_Christianity

"Dyfrig taught Saint Illtud (c. 425 to c. 505), the founder of the great school/seminary/abbey of Llan Illtyd Fawr (English, "Llantwit Major") in the west of South Glamorgan. Illtud was considered the most learned person in Britain, expert alike in Maths, Grammar, Philosophy, Rhetoric and Scripture. He was “by descent a Druid and a fore knower of future events”, the writer implying that there was a Druid caste."

(On a side note... Illtud is apparently related to King Arthur, of Knights of the Round Table fame. "For example, in the Life of Saint Illtud, from internal evidence apparently written around 1140, Arthur is said to be a cousin of that churchman. ")

Another quote by a 19th century antiquary, Godfrey Higgins: "In the early history of the Christian church, in Britain and Ireland, we meet with an order of priests called Culdees....They had a very celebrated monastery in the island of Iona, and others in remote situations, and these situations, by accident or design, mostly the former possessions of the Druids....The result of all the enquiries which I have made into the history of the Culdees is, that they were the last remains of the Druids, who had been converted to Christianity, before the Roman church got any footing in Britain. They were Pythagorean Druidical monks, probably Essenes, and this accounts for their easily embracing Christianity: for the Essenes were as nearly Christians as possible." (The Celtic Druids, 1829)

However, it should be noted that Higgins was possessed of some rather radical ideas, in his time. What survives historical inspection is that the early monks of Iona captured in writing what little is known about the Celtic Legends, which were mostly oral traditions. Certainly, by all records, another Saint, Saint Brigid of Ireland was a Druid, or something similar, converted to early Celtic Christianity. Druids, being a skill set bounded caste, rather than simply religion, could follow whatever deity they could see the most light, therewithin.

Unfortunately, while Druids were actually part of the early Church, and Saints, they endured persecution at various points in the churches history. Around 275ad the Papa (Pope) of Rome grew political aspirations of conquering Celtic Scotland, and many edicts specifically aimed at undermining the Celtic Church, were pronounced by the Roman Papa, such as the banning of the "edification of places and things, such as tree's, lakes or streams", a common Celtic/Druidic practice, as well as "Reincarnation". Such politically motivated dogma gave rise to the term "propaganda", coined by the later Roman Catholic Church. The Druids and their ways were "demonized" by the Church propaganda, reoccuring over and again throughout centuries, often preceding the attempted conquest of a Celtic, or Druidic influenced, Territory (Example: Germanic Tribes).

The Roman Church had quite a problem with a complete conversion of much of the Celtic region, thanks to the Druids. The Romanizing influence on the church really didn't take until the time of St. Columba who coined the phrase "Jesus is my Druid", capitalizing on the very popularity of the traditional beliefs. This resistance is owed in part to the Scottish seat of the Celts having remained unconquered by Rome, the dominant culture underlying the spread of "Romanized" Christianity. The Roman Church - Celtic Church conflicts, among others, sat among the motives for the eventual calling of the First Council of Nicaea, presided over by Constantine the Great. Constantine saw Wisdom in attempting to assert Rome as the final word in all matters ecumenical. The Emperor envisioned a future of conquering victoriously under the "Sign of the Cross".

It was Constantines cultural impact that set in motion the factors that mutated the cross of the early Christians, a circle, with an equilateral cross in the middle, to the sword-like elongated cross in more common use today. The Culdees would have interpreted the early Christian cross as the "Divine Circle", (from whence we derive the old latin term Deis (Modern: Dais) or Disc, but also the term Deity, Deus (God), and Deuce (Two).

["For there were Two Discs, One Disc to Rule the Day, and One Disc whereby to Govern the Night.."]),

having history as an early nature based symbol. And the "equilateral cross" as the "Four Directions[Natures] of the Unseen Winds", or in some writings, "Pillars of the Earth", (see Enoch) all very natural symbols. This early form of Cross is also known as the Greek Cross, for the earliest followers of Christian teachings, the Orthodox Greeks, used it as well. The same cross can be found in many cultures, and histories, many predating Christianity, such the the sun cross or Odins cross.

Eventually, thanks to Constantine, the "Equilateral Cross" mutated into the "Chi-Rho" of the Roman Christians (or Labarum), and then distended to better be representative of the sword, that the Rho was somewhat reminiscent thereof. Cultural artifacting of this earlier Cross is exhibited by Celtic Church symbols, including the Celtic Cross of Iona, The Greek Orthodox Church, and many Protestant Church symbols, and their cultural heirs.. as well as the ones in the earliest Catacombs of the Martyrs.

Near the end of the middle ages, the German word for Pentagram, "Drudenfuss", (literally "Druids Foot") was mistranslated by the church propaganda as "Witches Foot", about the time The Pope, Innocent VIII, issued his now famous Bull, "Summis desiderantes," in 1484, claiming "Germany was filled with Witches". This inflamed the fervor of "Witch Hunting" that was to span several centuries, winding down finally, around the time of the Salem Trials. By then, the damage had been done, Druids had become intimately associated with Witches, who had become associated with Evil, when in fact many were counted among the Saints, Monks, and Bishops of the early Church, itself.

Hello, could someone please tell me what was wrong with my very well cited edit on welsh literature?. I'm finding this quite frustrating as it is so very incorrect I am Welsh and living in Wales associated with Druids (still in practice)- which has ALWAYS been a part of Wales although this hasnt been stated. Paganism is my religion and believe you me there are plenty of Druids in Wales, Celebrating the festivals reciting poetry so on. Paganism is something that has be passed down to me through my grandmother (a tea leave reader/witch)- Also there is nothing about Scotland. Druidism isnt simply ONLY an Irish belief ITS CELTIC. \ sort it out please. my well cited edit, was just as strong as the cited text there (if not even more cited)- with extra links and footnotes from where it has been stated in books. with 2 from scholars (1800) paganisn and Druids was something in wales that become covanted (secret covans) in Wales- where no names were shared and the magical practices kept in secret for year and still the only way most pagans and Druids practice in Wales to this day - never stating the names of the people they practice with. Due to the fact that from 1066 onwards and the Norman conquest it was against the law to not be Catholic and punishable by death. Hitting Ireland harder as we full well know they are Catholics now. Though Wales isnt Catholic at all. You will find this similar story in Scotland. This proves that Druidism was very much alive up until 1066. I will be prepared to cite this aswel also.

I have cited this "Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/

Also there is nothing of the mention of "high priestesses" who are the female equivalent, nothing of the mention of welsh ranking, of certain people in power from other covans that influence the writings of lower covans. nothing of the pagan festivals found in Wales where either the high priestess or Druid will lead the ceremony. the ecinox imbulc summer and winter soltice (the festivals) There is nothing of the mention of Welsh pagan and Druid gatherings not ceremonial called "moots"- mostly a social gathering where pagans drink.

WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO GET A HIGH PRIESTESS OR DRUID FROM WALES THAT I KNOW TO HELP YOU WRITE THIS PROPERLY?

Druidism arrived in Britain from the western European Gauls (Celtic) and infiltrated in Britain and Ireland simultaneously simply because Irish and Welsh are 2 separate languages this is not a clear indication of anything. what you have placed is incorrect. Being a part of the Christian church, was an old form of taxation. and something most people did. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.0.33 (talk) 18:31, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Welsh literature

please look at the ratings for the page, 11 for heavily biased (1 bar) and 12 for missing most information (1 bar)- I am 100% certain that those were from Welsh people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.20.186 (talk) 00:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

"In Wales, the roles and privileges of bards related to laws set down by Hywel Dda in the 10th century AD. During the 18th century, druids came to be seen as the ancestors of the bards, the praise poets, musicians and genealogists, who flourished in Welsh medieval society." http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/ "Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937/.

druidism and paganism is a very highly complex religion, that after many many years of being in practice you will rise from rank to rank. Which is widely practiced in Wales still. A great deal of Welsh history books literature, poetry and paintings were burnt in the 1400 AD approx, as an act against the Welsh language. Starting riots and the return of the King Owain Gwylndr (1410-1400) who led a residence against King Henry the 5th England. The surviving manuscripts have been compiled and show druidism all the way through. the neo-druidic heresy.

Druid King, Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon was the inspiration behind the Welsh flag ( Y ddraig goch)- the red dragon, and the common beliefs in mythological creatures- ie Dragons, which can be found ALL throughout welsh literature (quite badly) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.20.186 (talk) 00:51, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Druidism arrived in Britain from the western European Gauls (Celtic) and infiltrated in Britain and Ireland simultaneously simply because Irish and Welsh are 2 separate languages this is not a clear indication of anything. what you have placed is incorrect. Being a part of the Christian church, was an old form of taxation (you payed your taxes through the church). and something most people did., could someone please tell me what was wrong with my very well cited edit on welsh literature?. I'm finding this quite frustrating as it is so very incorrect.I am Welsh and living in Wales associated with Druids (still in practice)- which has ALWAYS been a part of Wales although this hasnt been stated. Paganism is my religion and believe you me there are plenty of Druids in Wales, Celebrating the festivals reciting poetry so on. Paganism is something that has be passed down to me through my grandmother (a tea leave reader/witch)- Also there is nothing about Scotland. Druidism isnt simply ONLY an Irish belief ITS CELTIC. \ sort it out please. my well cited edit, was just as strong as the cited text there (if not even more cited)- with extra links and footnotes from where it has been stated in books. with 2 from scholars (1800)

paganisn and Druids was something in wales that become covanted (secret covans) in Wales- where no names were shared and the magical practices kept in secret for years and still the only way most pagans and Druids practice in Wales to this day - never stating the names of the people they practice with. Due to the fact that from 1066 onwards and the Norman conquest it was against the law to not be Catholic and punishable by death. Hitting Ireland harder as we full well know they are Catholics now. Though Wales isnt Catholic at all (but as everyone knows has a very small population). You will find this similar story in Scotland. This proves that Druidism was very much alive up until 1066. I will be prepared to cite this aswel also.

Also there is nothing of the mention of "high priestesses" who are the female equivalent, nothing of the mention of welsh ranking, of certain people in power from other covans that influence the writings of lower covans. nothing of the pagan festivals found in Wales where either the high priestess or Druid will lead the ceremony. the ecinox imbulc summer and winter soltice (the festivals) There is nothing of the mention of Welsh pagan and Druid gatherings not ceremonial called "moots"- mostly a social gathering where pagans drink.

WOULD YOU LIKE ME TO GET A HIGH PRIESTESS OR DRUID FROM WALES THAT I KNOW TO HELP YOU WRITE THIS PROPERLY?

Also the Gauls spoke a Brythonic language as well as the Welsh. In addition to Christianity. my grandmother who was a witch told very few people (as all pagans and Druids are like) and told people that she was Christian but prayed at home. for reasons she wouldn't even tell me. But very frequently read my tealeaves, passed it onto my mother then me. the system is- old hag- witch- and the beauty. But she preferred witch.

Also national poetry competitions to place the bards is currently ongoing in Wales, (the 10 best poets are named bards). I should know as I dated one and they don't practice human sacrifice anymore I should know as I'm still alive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.141.62 (talk) 23:39, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 (talk • contribs) 19:01, 28 August 2011 (UTC) 
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.157.36 (talk) 16:58, 28 August 2011 (UTC)   
— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dougweller (talk • contribs)  

Please stick to one named account. THere is a lot of confusion here. We have criteria for sources at WP:VERIFY and WP:RS, and all material in the article must be capable of being sourced to a reliable source that specifically discusses Druids. Our own opinions, or using sources that don't discuss Druids, would be what we call original research, see WP:NOR.

The main subject of the article is Iron Age Druidism. There is a subjection on neo-Druidism which should be a summary of Neo-Druidism. Edward Davies (Celtic) is defintely not a reliable source for Iron Age Druidism, although he was very influential in the development of neo-Druidism. He's described as extreme & arcane in The rise of modern mythology, 1680-1860 By Burton Feldman, Robert D. Richardson [1]. Your edits are almost incomprehensible, but I can see a lot of original research thaere about Merlin, Arthur (spelled 'Athur' by you) Geoffrey, etc. "That the Bards, under the name of Christians and the guise of Christian nomenculture." is not a sentence, although I can find it at [2]. Interestingly enough, right after that fragment (which is discussing Davies' views), Skene says "It would probably be difficult to find a stranger specimen of perverted ingenuity and misplaced learning than is contained in the works of Davies and Herbert". So you've copied something from a source that says it's nonsense. Dougweller (talk) 13:14, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Besides a good deal of unsourced material, some of the citations provided aren't actually citations, but refer to goodreads.com webpages (?!), to other Wikipedia articles that not only violate the self-reference policy but don't back the claims made, or to outside sources that, as Dougweller has already written above, either don't support or outright contradict what is being said. The section is also very poorly written and makes it hard to determine what comes from what sources. Ergative rlt (talk) 16:39, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I have noticed that 80% of the references are from usually one book Ronald hulton I consider this bad form, you should create an account which is pooled from a multitude of sources rather than simply one. my rushed typing isn't the source of bad information, rather a typing error. I can hardly use my account properly as I am new to this, but I so very strongly disagree with what has been placed in "welsh literature" which only proposes a 2 ended tale of an answer to begin with. If you must be pedantic about what I felt was a stronger more accurate description rather than a two ended solution, of "probably" and "may have been this"- which is all that is there. As educated people yourselves. please write something stronger, as what is there currently is pooled from the SAME book and provides NO REAL explanation for anything.

Welsh literature is missing a VAST amount of information, pure ignorance like this will solve nothing. If you must disagree with everything I have typed ( a solution to the pathetic 2 ended answer)- follow the research yourself. until then you will continually receive bad ratings 11 for heavily biased (one bar) and missing most information (1 bar)- I completely agree with these ratings. leah

Do you object to using Hutton because he's a pagan? He's the major academic writer on the subject today. I think you don't understand how Wikipedia works. Again, we have to use what we call reliable sources discussing Druids. A lot of the stuff written about Druidism doesn't meet our criteria. Dougweller (talk) 18:10, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

As well as having a History degree, I am also a popularized illustrator/designer for t-shirts and jumpers. you write whatever plagiarism you like and I will be producing a t-shirt that says " they say it will take 1,000 monkey's with a 1,000 typewriters and a 100 years to type the bible. they say it will take a Billion wikkipedia editors, a billion years to type a wealth of incorrect information. the monkey bible would be better" as you wont change it and this is plagiarism, people will find this t-shirt funny, because wikkipedia has a notorious bad name. thankyou for your ignorance, I will start designing the lettering sometime this week.you stick to what your good and I'll stick to what I'm good at — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 (talk • contribs) 19:04, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Agree with the above assessments. This is so poorly sourced and poorly written as to be totally unsalvageable. Better luck next time.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:34, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Leah, I don't want to be rude (although you've been rude), but you simply don't understand how Wikipedia works and don't seem to have bothered to find out. Instead you insult other editors and Wikipedia. You haven't once tried to discuss our objections. If you think that entitles you to judge us and Wikipedia, fine, but it says more about you than about us. Dougweller (talk) 19:50, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

"Earliest mention of Druids comes during the 1st century BC, referring to druidae in Gaul (France) and Britain, who were wise men, observers of natural phenomena and moral philosophers. Similar to the druids were the bards (bardoi) - singers and poets, and diviners (vates), who interpreted sacrifices in order to foretell the future" just pay attention to it. then read whats there- its contradictory. it states that the welsh (in Britain) were influenced by the Irish terms (?) , also stated as a possibility- the riddle is solved- the answer is above. sorry I'm annoyed that's all- leah mainwaring Also mryddin wllyt was born in carmarthen that is fact, druid does mean "oak-knower" just like you stated, and we kept that stupid branch from his oak tree for years in Carmarthenshire County Museum. your not paying any attention at all. Why I'm frustrated, yes maybe it was written badly (my fault) but yes these things are common known fact, and have been for years. you seem to be missing the point entirely, that's all. http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=merlin%27s+oak&um=1&hl=en&biw=800&bih=507&tbm=isch&tbnid=7fYJE4baNzRUCM:&imgrefurl=http://www.carmarthen.info/oldoak.htm&docid=p-_SfGFwMQQk5M&w=250&h=330&ei=0gxcTvDaBJGu8QOJ9emWDA&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=521&page=1&tbnh=129&tbnw=98&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=62&ty=53

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=merlin%27s+oak&um=1&hl=en&biw=800&bih=507&tbm=isch&tbnid=E4iz1kCliz5qxM:&imgrefurl=http://www.carmarthentowncouncil.gov.uk/Core/Carmarthen_English/Pages/Guide_to_Carmarthen_1.aspx&docid=NMawakyQos1r8M&w=320&h=483&ei=0gxcTvDaBJGu8QOJ9emWDA&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=479&vpy=48&dur=2374&hovh=276&hovw=183&tx=102&ty=145&page=1&tbnh=129&tbnw=94&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:3,s:0

Myrddin Wyllt and Vita Merlini how could you ignore these things?- what I was trying to say

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.232.202 (talk) 21:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC) 

I'm guessing that you are claiming that Merlin was a real person rather than someone more or less invented by Geoffrey (who also uses 'Merlin' as an alternative name for Ambrosius). You should read The Druids: a study in Keltic prehistory By Thomas Downing Kendrick who says "Now there is not one word about druidical training nor practice either in the Historia or in the Vita. In the last-named work it is said of Merlin rex erat et votes, he was a king and a prophet; while in the Historia he is simply a prophet, only distinguished by his strange birth and his superior utterances from the other magicians of Vortigern. And these, it should be noted, share the name magi with other wise men living outside the druidic lands, the sooth-sayers of the Trojan settlers in Italy, for example." Dougweller (talk) 06:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

The dates are incorrect.you seem to be forgetting the pagan god gaeya (mother nature). The expression goes where I'm from why don't you go and teach a granny how to suck eggs. In other words- your trying to write about Welsh history, Ronald hulton is wrong.Druids derived from Gaul and Britain. And welsh people weren't influenced by the Irish as you should full well know the Britons (welsh) populated England as well meaning at that time it only would have been welsh history. On the note of Merlyn or any other historical figure- what you have typed is purely opinions. Paganism was very much alive in welsh and gaulish cultures (then passed onto) irish . You have typed something which is far too misleading and incorrect. As far as Italy is concerned, the roman empire caused the dark ages (where nothing was written correctly) and only would have been influenced by the celtic beliefs after invading britain and enslaving (massacring the gauls) what your sourcing is a classic case of "the victor writes history"- http://www.museumwales.ac.uk/en/rhagor/article/1937 you need to read this and educate yourself with welsh history on that topic. By the way it doesnt matter what has been written about Myrddin outside of welsh literature regarding his life. oak-knower Druid and the pagan god Gaeaya (mother nature) outside of Wales has turned into something outlandishly ridiculous and far far from its original meaning, far enough, enough crap has been written about myrddin over the years but that doesnt retract from our, mythological historical literature and way of life. plus Vortigern was the first celebrated King of the Britons (Welsh) and reigned from Wales (spoke the old Brythonic)- with his 12 druids you say (?) yet we had none (?). I know "oak-knower' druids- like you would say that to you say live in (hippie communes) to me they live in the woodlands in roundhouses, they're more learned on the topic of welsh history. And aren't ceremonial yet would only marry by ribbon binding- the lifestyle of druids in wales is different- yet they all believe in magic. The concept of oak-knower is simply the freedom and spirit of nature and yourself, inner alignments good and bad energies- tarot card reading. It is what people call "spiritual"- all the hooky coaky nonsense of crystal healing astrology and that sort of stuff comes from wales. age old traditions. there's millions of them from tee-pee vally to callwallon woods from horltsfield woods to olwen woods and networked all across Wales. The men are all oak-knower druids- to you- a man that lives in the woods that believes in magic. luckily for you they wont read what has been typed to be offended- as they usually don't have p.c's- so write what you will.

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.41.36 (talk) 16:15, 30 August 2011 (UTC) 

I really can't understand you. Please be more specific. What dates are incorrect? Where does Hutton say thre were no Druids in Gaul or Britain? I repeat, Hutton is a pagan, so we are using a pagan source for some of the article. Please don't confuse the issue by using Welsh when you mean Celtic, which is what you seem to be doing. By Welse we mean the people who live in Wales. Where does the article disagree with what is on the museum website (quotes from the article please, copy and paste). And please, stop with the stuff that isn't sourced and comments about oak-knower Druids, this isn't a forum where you can have a general discussion of Druidiam. Dougweller (talk) 17:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

that the earliest mention of Druids came from Britain and Gaul, ie not influenced by Ireland the other way around. there is no denying of the pagan influence in Wales also- Caerfyddin from (myrddin)- and merlins oak. close to tee-pee vally where he lived, a town named after where he was born. a town in between Caerfyddin and swansea called "kidwelly" meaning "the black cat" the road sign for it has a black cat also. Behind glass in Swansea library there are ancient witches spells books covered in dust- in Caerfyddin there are books about merlin (ancient) I can't be bothered the name the rest. But you seem to have typed that that was ALL influenced through ireland, INCORRECT. it is the former option that ronald hulton proposed. our flag itself comes from magical beliefs. You simply cannot just read one sentence in a large book a poo-poo everything. Not all humans are right about things. Ive been to Ireland myself and stayed for a very long time hitch hiking with pagans and druids to do sight seeing- I actually found far less people into that kind of stuff anymore. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.41.36 (talk) 17:36, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

You still aren't clear. What exact dates are wrong? The earliest mentions of Druids don't seem influenced by any geographical area. All of Britain and Gaul was pagan at the time of Caesar. So what? It's only when we jump forward quite a few centuries that Hutton is talking about the use of the term in Wales possibly being influenced by the Irish. The earliest writers about Merlin, etc didn't mention Druids. And I did ask you about the museum website but you haven't responded. And you've given no reliable sources at all except the website. Dougweller (talk) 17:54, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

firstly I couldnt be more clear than what I have said A- the first recordings of druids come from britain and gaul not ireland in the 1st century BC. fact. the latter proposal is incorrect on the basis that "druidae" was written in britain and by the gauls (not in ireland) and that "drwy" in Welsh is our language he is wrong so very wrong. I could put that ireland was influenced by us saying "druidae" which is actually more accurate , the term was borrowed from Ireland- it's wrong. He simply proposes 2 things, he doesn't state anything. I could find a single sentence in a book and place it in such a way that its misleading as well and B- this may or may not be accurate from the 6th century- http://one-evil.org/people/people_06c_david.htm this- and the traditions that were left wasn't borrowed from Ireland. Also there were no druids? you say? although you have put a Welsh king ON the page with the story of 12 Druids. Briton King reigned from Wales spoke the "old welsh" get it right. king geraint- approx year 600AD http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=king+geraint&um=1&hl=en&client=firefox-a&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=np&biw=800&bih=507&tbm=isch&tbnid=8FNAroKVLgodYM:&imgrefurl=http://members.fortunecity.com/aurelius222/geraint.html&docid=YjhpDzAgk6upvM&w=235&h=417&ei=LTFdTv75H8a28QPUxNjJAw&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=259&vpy=26&dur=60&hovh=299&hovw=168&tx=105&ty=147&page=1&tbnh=108&tbnw=61&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0 recorded king dispite what it says about king arthur— Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.128.234 (talk) 18:05, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

dont disgrace my flag, people or history, beliefs(mythological) anymore . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.230.104 (talk) 20:17, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

To the editor contributing from the IP addresses above - please don't see this article as any kind of attack on your beliefs, flag, people etc. It's no such thing - it's just an encyclopaedia article written to certain standards. One of these is that of reliable sources and published books from reputable publishers fall into this category. I'm afraid sources such as this or the one at http://one-evil.org are not regarded in Wikipedia as reliable. This is the case even if they are 'right' and Hutton is 'wrong'! I'm still not sure what it is in this article you object to, but the best way of resolving it would be to say something like: "Some authors believe X (with cited reference) while others state the Y (with reference) is the case. We have a reference from Hutton - there's no reason to delete it, but if it's wrong and a reliable source contradicts him we can include it. If you can draft a counter-argument drawn from a reliable source, then let's have it in here by all means!

PS: It would help a lot if you edited from an account, then we could communicate with you much better and your contributions could be recognised properly. Best wishes, Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 21:12, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I already provided sources from historians but that was deleted. I have already done this. this is completely wrong, completely completely completely wrong. like I said I am a clothes designer/illustrator. and popularized as well. this will be my next t-shirt after I have finished the lettering. "they say that 1,000 monkeys with a 1,000 typewriters with a 100 years years could type the bible. They say that a billion wikkipedia editors with a billion computers and a million years will produce a wealth of incorrect information"

people will find this hilarious mainly because wikkipedia has such a bad name. and I can see why now, it is simply plagiarism. one line from a book portrayed in a certain way can produce something that appears a 1,000 times different. you are very ignorant people for not being able to see that ALL of our historical literature is mythological and magical. this IS degrading and disgracing. like I said before. this page has 11 ratings for heavily biased and 12 for missing most information. people already know better than whats there. this is the kind of stuff that gives wikkipedia a bad name and I can completely see why. hence when I produce a t-shirt (that isn't an illustrated design) I 100% make sure that the witty comments will work and sell. obviously I havent tried to edit wikkipedia for that reason, but this t-shirt will sell. thankyou very very much for your time, you have misinformed yourselves with incorrect information and I will soon be making a great deal of money from one design in the pipeline.

you disgrace my flag (being a dragon from magical beliefs) I disgrace you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.96.143.113 (talk) 21:35, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

As you wish. T-shirt design and encyclopaedia editing are very different pursuits and I wish you luck in your chosen field. I'd be rubbish at designing t-shirts so I'll stick here! Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 22:46, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I also have a history degree- and a further more extensive knowledge on welsh/Celtic history, quite obviously. people take the piss out of "where you stick" because your always wrong. At least my t-shirt sell. how dare you say what you've said in this article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.148.35 (talk) 00:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

You are still being rude. I've asked you how the text in the museum site, which you seem to like, disagrees with our article and you haven't answered me yet. Have you read WP:VERIFY, WP:RS and WP:NOR yet? If you haven't, you need to if you are serious about wanting to improve this article, as without an understanding of how we work you are going to remain frustrated. You've been asked to draft what you want in the article here, using sources that meet our criteria (and you now have the links to the guidelines explaining those criteria). Dougweller (talk) 10:38, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Irish mythology - Welsh mythology - Celtic Christianity - Magic and Religion - the welsh Druids described as seer and Prophets (diviners) the Irish druids described as (diviners) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.103.45.51 (talk) 18:41, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

not a problem-

please see my attempted input.

Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. . The faith was firmly established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission . Though information during these two periods are sparse. It has been expressed during that duration the bards and prophets that featured heavily in medieval Welsh literature, that the druids were thier true ancestors. . It is known that the prophet Myrddin Wyllt (c. 540 - c. 584), later became personified as Merlin, and representive of Magic and religion in Britain. The inspiration for the Flag of Wales came from the end of the 6th century, from King Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon (Y Ddraig Goch) the red dragon. Afirming the Belief in mythological gaints. Through the growth of Christianity in Britain.

please check all of the citations- references and I hope you better this article :).

leahxx — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.109.39.144 (talk) 16:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Leah, the changes you are making have nothing to do with the topic of this article, and violate WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Please do not make anymore such changes in the future without discussing first on the article talk page and getting consensus from the other editors. Also, in the future, always log in as user:Leah27011987, and sign your posts. Thank you. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Content disputes

There has been a lot of to-ing and fro-ing in the last few days with no meaningful discussion on the talk page here. Please, both sides, do discuss your content and objections to it here rather than simply reverting and re-inserting. If all else fails I will fully protect this page for a while, to allow you time to discuss it here. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 15:45, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

please check all of the citations for this attempted edit, and try to excuse my early frustration and anger. (I am unfamiliar with Wikipedia).

please check citations-

Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. . The faith was firlmy established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission . Though information during these two periods is sparse. It has been expressed during that duration the bards and prophets that featured heavily in medieval Welsh literature, that the druids were thier true ancestors. . It is known that the prophet Myrddin Wyllt (c. 540 - c. 584), later became personified as Merlin, and representive of Magic and religion in Britain. The inspiration for the Flag of Wales came from the end of the 6th century, from King Cadwaladr ap Cadwallon (Y Ddraig Goch) the red dragon. Afirming the Belief in mythological gaints. Through the growth of Christianty in Britain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by leah27011987 (talk) 16:16, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Leah, the changes you are making have nothing to do with the topic of this article, and violate WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Please do not make anymore such changes in the future without discussing first on the article talk page and getting consensus from the other editors. Also, in the future, always log in as user:Leah27011987, and sign your posts. Thank you. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 16:14, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

you obviously havent taken the time to read it or check the citations- it suits what has been said above it under welsh literature. and yes it is relevant. thankyou — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.101.41.168 (talk) 16:29, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

• • As for " the druids were thier true ancestors" neither source says that. Anne Ross says they were the successors of the Druids (ie not Druids), the museum site says "During the 18th century, druids came to be seen as the ancestors of the bards" which is relevant to neo-Druidism, not Druidism. Our article on Myrddin Wyllt doesn't suggest he was a Druid, Cadwaladr wasn't a Druid, you don't seem to have any references discussing the Celtic Church in relationship to Druidism, etc. Please do not post here about anything not directly connected to the article as it will be removed. Dougweller (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

the point is- Welsh literature

Whilst druids featured prominently in many medieval Irish sources, they were far rarer in their Welsh counterparts. Unlike the Irish texts, the Welsh term commonly seen as referring to the druids, dryw, was used to refer purely to prophets and not to sorcerers or pagan priests. Historian Ronald Hutton noted that there were two explanations for the use of the term in Wales: the first was that it was a survival from the pre-Christian era, when dryw had been ancient priests, whilst the second was that the Welsh had borrowed the term from the Irish, as had the English (who used the terms dry and drycraeft to refer to magicians and magic respectively, most probably influenced by the Irish terms.)[60]

suggests two ultimatums.

my input suggests-

Christianity arrived in Britain in the 3rd century, the Christian Empire and its legions departed to defend Italy from visigothic attacks at the beginning of the 4th century, 407ad. . The faith was firlmy established by the end of the 6th century with the Gregorian mission . Though information during these two periods is sparse.

"whilst the second was that the Welsh had borrowed the term from the Irish, as had the English (who used the terms dry and drycraeft to refer to magicians and magic respectively, most probably influenced by the Irish terms.)[60]"

is a strong opinion, which I strongly disagree with. More research needs to me made. The Red Book of Hergest contained enough magic to interest Tolkien, who named the Red Book of Westmarch after our book, a collection of lord of the rings, written by hobbits. The point being is that's a lot of magic to be "claimed" as Irish. So I disagree having read my books as well. Welsh literature is riddled with tales of magic, Arthurian legend, king Arthur, Merlin, sword Excalibur, dragon slaying so on can only predominately be found in Welsh literature. It is a very very very bold thing to say that ALL OF THAT came from Ireland. Please look at the dates again and realize that a pro ceremonial pagan created this opinion. It— Preceding unsigned comment added by Leah27011987 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

None of this has anything at all to do with the topic of this article. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Leah, the material you are trying to insert is simply not about Druids, which is why it's being reverted. If it belongs anywhere, it's in another article. I'm very sympathetic to pagan movements and to Welsh culture but this is not a place for "more research to be made". As an encyclopaedia we can only cite the reliable sources others have written, we can't draft our own research or the fruits of our own knowledge. Whether YOU (or any of us) agree or disagree with the statement is neither here nor there. If you can find a reliable source to contradict it, please insert the citation and write a piece of encyclopaedic prose which flows from it. Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 20:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I think the source you are interested in is certainly a reliable one, but it's really talking about 18th century developments and not Hywel Dda directly. I've put it into the main article as you'll see - what do you and others think? Kim Dent-Brown ^(Talk) 20:18, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

It's an improvement, but I don't see why Hywel Dda in particular matters to a discussion of Romantic-era interpretations of druidism.--Cúchullain ^t/c 23:50, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I can't see it but yes Hywel dda placed down the laws for the bards in the 10th century (who were deemed to be the successors of the druids)

it suits this part of the article-

Possible late survival of Insular druidism The best evidence of a druidic tradition in the British Isles is the independent cognate of the Celtic *druwid- in Insular Celtic: The Old Irish druídecht survives in the meaning of "magic", and the Welsh dryw in the meaning of "seer".

While the druids as a priestly caste were extinct with the Christianization of Wales, complete by the 7th century at the latest, the offices of bard and of "seer" (Welsh: dryw) persisted in medieval Wales into the 13th century."

-I believe that as during the time of 407ad to the end of the 6th century information in Britain regarding Christianity being sparse- this calls for more reading. which I will do and wont bother you for a while until I've sussed it out. comment added by Leah27011987 (talk • contribs) 00:25, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

yes I've found it, lovely.

November 2011

"They recognised the authority of a single leader, who would rule till their death". Grammatically, "their" is tied to "They", so the author appears to be claiming that the ruler would rule until the Druid class were all dead (though the singular "death" creates some grammatical ambiguity). But I don't think that is what he really meant. Try replacing "their" with "his". If one wishes to allow for the possibility that the leader could be female, substitute "her or his".

Alan1000 (talk) 11:28, 8 November 2011 (UTC)alan1000

"Bog bodies, said to show ritual sacrifice..." I think the article could emphasise more clearly that everything written about 'sacrifice' is hypothesis and speculation, not just 'pure', but occasionally bordering upon 'wild'. The Druids probably practised human sacrifice at some stage (as, indeed, did the Romans); but it would be indefensible to judge them by the accounts of the ancient Roman commentators who, to a greater or lesser degree, were propagandists. Would you write an account of the Palestinian Intifada, based solely upon American or Israeli sources? Julius Caesar was naturally determined to paint the blackest picture he could, to justify his policy of summarily executing every Druid priest on sight, with the aim of the total extermination of the class. He knew exactly what needed to be done to destroy social cohesion in Gaul and Britain.

There is not one shred - not one single piece - of hard, objective evidence to show that the 'threefold' executions of the Bog Bodies (though undoubtedly formal in nature) were carried out for religious-sacrificial purposes. You could just as well say that they were the standard judical penalty for (say) incest, or patricide, with no particular religious connotation. And nobody could adduce a single piece of evidence to prove you wrong.

Alan1000 (talk) 12:12, 8 November 2011 (UTC) Alan Masterman

I agree, and it's odd that it is cited to Hutton -- see [3] for instance. I've got the book it's cited to but am busy today, maybe tomorrow I'll have time if no one else does. Dougweller (talk) 14:09, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

BCE

Just verifying because I've seen this start fights elsewhere: The earliest version of this article to use any dating system used the common era dating system. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:00, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Druid and Dryad

I noticed "Druid" shares an etymological connection with "Dryad". Are there any other noted connections between the two? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.147.172.70 (talk) 00:09, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Probably not. They share the PIE root *deru, Oak, but Druid includes the *weid, seer. The Dryad connection is more readily explained by the Greeks and Romans seeing other cultures in their emic views instead of an etic view. Ian.thomson (talk) 17:17, 20 January 2012 (UTC)