Talk:Dutch School (painting)

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Okay, I have to wonder, is there really a "Dutch School" of artists before c. 1600? One might be able to argue for the Dutch Baroque painting as the "Dutch School", but before that it's not really possible (very localised tendencies: yes; but a greater concept: doubtfully). And then the article confuses the matter even more by saying the Dutch school encompasses all of the artists of Early Netherlandish painting and Dutch Renaissance painting (assuming only those active in the northern Low Countries—something Karel van Mander didn't express in his Het schilderboek—that is further exemplified by the fact that I need to actually link to Dutch and Flemish Renaissance painting to make the latter reference work at present) and only the first thirty years or so of Dutch Baroque painting, but goes on to only list artists that were primarily active after 1630 (most of Rembrandt's and Frans Hals's careers, Jan Vermeer, Jan Steen and Jacob van Ruisdael). Is the purpose mostly to be a list duplicating the List of people from the Dutch Golden Age#Painting or the Baroque section of List of Dutch painters? I have no problem with that, but how many different ways do these same artists need to be listed? It needs some massaging (only Baroque artists are included right now, most of whom fall outside of the description presented in the lead).

So, my question is, what is the basis for the description? Is there a credible source that describes the "Dutch school" as it is here presented? Okay, I know there are similar descriptions, but very few credible ones written in the past fifty years or so?

Those are my objections: now, I'm going to remove the part about only including the "Dawn" of the "Golden Age" so that we can include those artist I just mentioned. I'm also going to remove Anthony van Dyck from the list since his brief dealings with the Orange court don't make him any more a part of this so-called "Dutch School" than was Peter Paul Rubens (although they all were pretty much part of the same school—the paintings of the Oranjezaal in the Huis ten Bosch attest to that). I'll also add a citation tag about Haarlem. Is that in Montias (mostly Delft and Amsterdam), or in, erm, Schema? I'm sure I can track it down, but maybe not immediately, and when I do it will probably get moved over Dutch Golden Age painting, which itself is in dire need of help. I mainly wrote all of this to document that some work needs to be done and if I make some changes with which you disagree, at least you know where I'm coming from and we can go from there.

By the way, I think there is enough artistic cooperation and stylistic affinity for there to be a Delft School and a few others, but with limitations (although I do respect traditional groupings as acceptable for Wikipedia). Wayne Franits's recent book Dutch seventeenth-century genre painting is good example of how different Dutch geographic centres reflect local tendencies. A "Dutch school" as it is described, however... --Stomme (talk) 10:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

This list was useful as a placeholder when all the links were red, but I think it can be merged into List of Dutch painters now. If no one objects, I will do that, as "Dutch School" doesn't really mean anything and if it does, then this list doesn't cover it. Jane (talk) 16:47, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
I agree the article is little use as it stands. I think there is a strong case for redirecting the title to Dutch Baroque painting aka Golden Age, as that is what it almost always means in English (mostly in older sources). The term pretty much lives on in English in the art trade (certainly in catalogues where the artist is unknown) & museum use - note eg. the still current Neil MacLaren, The Dutch School, 1600-1800, Volume I, 1991, National Gallery Catalogues, National Gallery, London, ISBN 0947645-99-3, and tons of things like this. Following on from Franits' discussion (p.7) of the term "school", in the eyes of the English, then and later, there certainly was a Dutch School, whatever the local view. The little text there is might usefully be moved to one of the many articles we have touching on this area: Art of the Low Countries, Dutch art etc. Johnbod (talk) 17:57, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
Since only one or two of these guys is from the 18th century and the rest are from the 17th century, why don't I just merge the list and link to the other list and leave this bit of text as a stub? You can then do whatever you like with it. Jane (talk) 08:50, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Ok - I think I'll merge to Dutch art in fact. Johnbod (talk) 15:59, 20 April 2013 (UTC)

I merged all the painters in to "List of Dutch painters" - it turns out there were very few names not already in there, about 6 or so. The other names left here are of sculptors and engravers, and I didn't realize there weren't any lists for these, so I will probably go ahead and make them. I will leave this list for now while I do that, and then I will remove all names from this list (the spelling wasn't consistent with the other list, but that is OK, because the redirects will stay). Jane (talk) 16:45, 22 April 2013 (UTC)

There is List of Printmakers, with sections by nationality & period (sometimes). Please keep up the techniques abbreviations. Johnbod (talk) 17:00, 22 April 2013 (UTC)
Thanks! I hadn't seen that - I had been looking at List of French engravers for inspiration, but I see I can just add the names to the one you mention, as there are very few of them. Jane (talk) 06:03, 23 April 2013 (UTC)