Talk:Early modern France

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WikiProject France (Rated C-class, High-importance)
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  • Merge --IvanP 21:51, 4 September 2005 (UTC)

Order of sub articles[edit]

I started a discussion on the talk page of the main article History of France, suggesting that the order of sections in sub articles should be changed, any comment there welcome. See Talk:History of France. Equendil Talk 20:09, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

New Article[edit]

Hi, I propose creating a new article on the constitutional monarchy of Louis XVI.-- Jack1755 (talk) 19:23, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Good thing I didn't wait around for a reply! -- Jack1755 (talk) 00:13, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

Advice sought on page size/sub page[edit]

To reduce the size of this page, I think that the "Structure of the Ancien Régime" sections should be pulled out to their own page. Any suggestions as to the best article name? --NYArtsnWords 18:13, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I pulled out the structures section and put them at Ancien Régime in France.--NYArtsnWords 16:47, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Name[edit]

Is it possible to rename the article? Because 'Early modern France isn't what it was rreally called. It was Just Royume Francais. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philip Auguste (talkcontribs) 05:27, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

The name was designed to fit with the History of France series (France in the Middle Ages, France in the long nineteenth century, France in the twentieth century) when all of these detailed subpages on historical periods were established (established, it should be noted, as separate from political regime articles such as French First Republic or Second French Empire) in 2005. If I remember correctly, discussion on this can be found at Talk:History of France. The title "Kingdom of France" doesn't fit this structure; it seems to imply a more state-centered or political focus, similar to what is covered under Ancien Régime in France. Any proposed moves or renaming should probably be taken up at History of France or with one of the related wiki-projects. Thanks. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 16:01, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Promotional references for a person's own works[edit]

I have moved the following references, added 9 August 2008 by User:David Lee Rubin, from the article to here, due to what I believe to be issues with Wikipedia:Conflict of interest and Wikipedia:LINKSPAM:

  • Rubin, David Lee (editor). Continuum - themed annual of early-modern French studies. New York: AMS Press, 1989-93. ISBN (series) 0-404-63750-7.
  • Rubin, David Lee (editor, 1993-2001); Anne L. Birberick and Russell J. Ganim (editors 2002-). EMF: Studies in Early Modern France - themed annual. Charlottesville: Rookwood Press (1993-) ISBN 978-1-886365-23-7.

It should be remembered that:

"Adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. Although the specific links may be allowed under some circumstances, repeatedly adding links will in most cases result in all of them being removed."

Similarly, as Wikipedia is not meant to provide a complete academic bibliography on any specific topic:

"A reference directs the reader to a work that the writer(s) referred to while writing the article. The References section of a Wikipedia article isn't just a list of related works; it is specifically the list of works used as sources. Therefore, it can never be correct to add a link or reference to References sections if nobody editing the text of the article has actually referred to it."

If other editors feel that the above links should be included in the article, please address the above issues. Thanks. NYArtsnWords (talk) 00:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page already moved by Anthony Appleyard. Non-admin close. PC78 (talk) 11:04, 29 October 2010 (UTC)



Kingdom of France (Early Modern)Early modern France — Move from Early modern France to Kingdom of France (Early Modern) done without discussion or edit summary justifications. NYArtsnWords (talk) 05:23, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

this is not an article about a FORMER country -- a very bad start[edit]

Early modern France is not a separate country -- no RS has been cited for this absurd claim. for proof see The Cambridge Illustrated History of France by Colin Jones & Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie (1999) study the Table of Contents here "French history....with such leaders as Joan of Arc, the sun king Louis XIV,Napoleon, and de Gaulle--remains a growth industry, especially on the Internet." [ Haine, The History of France (2000) p xi] The unhappy fact that other articles are also mishandled means the error has been repeated by uninformed editors. Rjensen (talk) 07:10, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

The "infobox former country" was added to this article on 22:57, 4 April 2007‎ by user Jannizz. While I agree (as one of the earliest editors of this page) that its inclusion here is problematic, it should not simply be deleted without at the same time adjusting the other "infoboxes" that precede and follow it. And indeed, as something that has been on the page for 6 years, its removal should probably be discussed a bit. As I understand it, its continued inclusion here and on the France in the Middle Ages page was done because no other French "regime/kingdom" page corresponded to the Kingdom of France in the period; an imperfect solution, but whose remedy will eventually involve some creative thinking. (Just to be clear: I'm not the person responsible for the inclusion or maintenance of the infobox on these pages over the past 6 years, but a (-2,717)‎ edit caught my eye tonight, and I thought it warranted reverting until a better solution was found.) -NYArtsnWords (talk) 07:37, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
user Jannizz made only one edit to this article so his contribution is negative. The article otherwise is good and since the infobox does not actually call it a "former" country no readers were hurt so I agree we can restore it with a small fix regarding when France began Rjensen (talk) 07:55, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
The problem is that there are two streams of articles:
France in the Middle AgesEarly modern FranceFrance in the long nineteenth centuryFrance in the twentieth century
FranciaKingdom of FranceKingdom of France (1791–1792)French First RepublicFirst French EmpireBourbon RestorationJuly MonarchyFrench Second RepublicSecond French EmpireFrench Third RepublicVichy France/Free FranceProvisional Government of the French RepublicFrench Fourth RepublicFrench Fifth Republic
The first is represented by Template:History of France is about the history of France (parent article). The second is about France as a political unit, its government and constitution. No former country infoboxes are needed on those in the first stream, since they aren't former countries. Srnec (talk) 17:14, 11 May 2013 (UTC)
Ok, given that the Kingdom of France page does exist, the infobox can certainly be removed from this page (and from France in the Middle Ages) and the infoboxes preceding and following should be corrected. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 21:42, 11 May 2013 (UTC) - I went ahead and made the changes. Hopefully without mistakes. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 22:02, 11 May 2013 (UTC)

Political vs social history[edit]

BTW, in looking over Kingdom of France article, it might be a good idea to refine some of the content of the page to accurately reflect its focus on "France as a political unit, its government and constitution" and to push any Hobsbawm/Braudel-like over-arching (non-regime/non-political) material (demographics, economy, language, etc.) to the France in the Middle Ages and Early modern France articles. This may also entail moving some or all of the material at Ancien Régime (which has become, de facto, "the administration of the Ancien Regime") to Kingdom of France. Comments? Suggestions? Thanks. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 00:43, 12 May 2013 (UTC)

The problem is the "History of France" has to cover so many kings and wars that it would be excessively long to include social, economic and cultural history. The literature is vast: The Annales School has produced thousands of books & articles --many of which call for Wikipedia's attention. Rjensen (talk) 04:20, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
Just for the history of why there are "two streams of articles": as it was very wisely pointed out to me in 2005 when we first set up the two streams, (paraphrasing) "history of regions is not the same thing as the history of regimes under which they were governed". Because of this, we kept the "regime" articles (1st empire, second empire, 3rd republic, etc) as their own specific articles, but asked larger questions about language, geography, economics, demographics, institutions, etc. in the other history articles (Middle Ages, Early Modern, Long 19th century, Modern...). Portions of this discussion can be found at Talk:History of France. I have always appreciated the Braudel scope of our History of France articles, but it does take some work to explain the two separate streams to new readers. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 04:43, 12 May 2013 (UTC)
I think we might be able to move (and, eventually, greatly expand) the "Social history" section (and perhaps portions of "The Church" section) of Ancien Régime to Early modern France, thus keeping the "Ancien Régime" article specifically focussed on administrative issues (taxation, justice, etc.), and helping to flesh out the "social history" purview of the "Early modern France" article. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 04:58, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
Agree with "move (and, eventually, greatly expand) the "Social history" section (and perhaps portions of "The Church" section) of Ancien Régime to Early modern France" Rjensen (talk) 05:30, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and brought the "social history" section over. The "Ancien Régime" article is now : the term, administrative divisions, justice, finances (taxation), administration, and the church. There are also two small "downfall" and "nostalgia" sections at Ancien Régime, which could also probably be moved. The "church" section (whether it remains at AR or is moved to EMF) needs to be greatly expanded, at the very least to include discussion of the religious orders and monasteries in France, the percentage of the population it represented, the expulsion and return of Jesuits, etc. There are certainly good reasons for moving/merging almost the entirety of Ancien Régime into Early modern France (keeping only a description of the expression "ancien régime" and its usage), although I worry it would make EMF a very long article. - NYArtsnWords (talk) 17:09, 16 May 2013 (UTC)