Talk:East African Campaign (World War I)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Military history (Rated B-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject Africa / Burundi / Democratic Republic of the Congo / Kenya / Malawi / Mozambique / Rwanda / Tanzania / Uganda / Zambia (Rated B-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Burundi.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Democratic Republic of the Congo.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Kenya.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Malawi.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Mozambique.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Rwanda.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Tanzania (marked as Top-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Uganda.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Zambia.
 
WikiProject Portugal (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Portugal, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Portugal on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Belgium (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belgium, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Belgium on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.
 
WikiProject Germany (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

German High sea fleet[edit]

The german high sea fleet only had one cruiser with 10 4 inch guns in the area. The cruiser SMS Koenigsberg after sinking the old HMS Pegasus retired into the Rufije delta were it was discoverd and sunk by the Royal Navy. The guns were later used by Lettow Vorbeck. The comment on German pre dreadnough or battlecruisers in the area is nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.57.32.22 (talk) 21:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

List of combatants -- France[edit]

France is listed as one of the combatants but I couldn't find a reference to French participation and there were no French territories in the region at the time (Burundi and the Congo being Belgian). I suppose it is possible that some French or Francophone troops were sent from north or west Africa, the other possibility of course is that Malagasy troops were involved or French troops or naval forces stationed in Madagascar. Does anyone know? Rexparry sydney 23:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Hew Strachan, The First World War in Africa, p. 111:
In August 1914 Gaston Doumergue, first as France’s foreign minister and then as colonial minister, had suggested joint French and British operations in East Africa, hoping thereby to boost France’s claims in that quarter of the continent. The Colonial Office had no wish to excite French ambitions in an area where hitherto they had been non-existent. Thus, French troops in Madagascar remained unemployed.
Pavel Vozenilek (talk) 23:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know there were no French involved in this campaign. Beware Burundi was at that moment still German and Belgian-Congolese troops occupied it only after fighing with the Germans. After the war Belgium received Burundi and Rwanda as a protectorate (Everberg Belgium) H.Trappeniers 21:51, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

Attempt at resupply by Zeppelin[edit]

Can someone put in something about this? P.M.Lawrence203.221.32.204 (talk) 13:18, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Lake Tanganyika, repaired vandalism[edit]

The section on the lake battle had remains of an old vandalism by 69.40.112.213, who basically changed the battle direction. His/her other changes had been repaired some time ago, I covered the last ones and added a ref. Actually, I think we should exchange the whole section with the one in Lake Tanganyika. --Cmontero (talk) 15:24, 16 August 2008 (UTC)


I think the numbers in this article are all wrong, esp. regarding Allied strength. Every book I've read have different figures, but the ones in this article are especially low. Someone check. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.250.255.69 (talk) 20:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I found a source and yes, the numbers are very different.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:10, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I changed the numbers to those of my source, by the way.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:29, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

From my talk page:[edit]

WW![edit]

Your edit in the ww1 Africa page needs work, the links did not work (poor tagging I think) and when copy and pasted did not produce a result.Slatersteven (talk) 20:11, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The links all work. Give them time. They are PDF files. Thanks for reverting the result.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 20:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
I reverted a link tht was not formated porperly, so did not work as a link, but thanks for correcting it now.Slatersteven (talk) 20:41, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Uh, actually they did work. See [1]. I meant thank-you for changing the Result from 'Allied victory' back to 'Tactical German victory'.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:07, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Its absurd. It was in no way a German victory. That's just stupidity of the highest order. Dapi89 (talk) 21:18, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
What are you talking about. The Germans met their objectives and the British failed to meet theirs. I would argue that it is a strategic victory and at least a tactical stalemate, but I would need to look into that. Instead of blindly throwing insults, why don't you try justifying your argument.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
No they didn't. Read the article. German strategy failed. Dapi89 (talk) 21:33, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
You are reading Wikipedia. 250,000 troops, or, as mentioned elsewhere in this article, about one million men in all were tied down in German East Africa.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:42, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
And Britain did not manage to vanquish the German resistance.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:44, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
It was British forces they attempted to divert. German strategy failed in diversion after 1916. German East Africa was abandoned in 1917. They survived by running away and ambushing, without a hope of winning. In every sense they were beaten. If they hadn’t surrendered in 1918, they probably would have starved. After the war their territory was lost. The fact that every German was not killed does not constitute a German victory - of any sorts. In case you hadn't noticed two-thirds of the German soldiers died. A comparable combat ration to British forces, most of which died from disease. Dapi89 (talk) 22:24, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
The Indian and South African troops could have been used in Europe. 250,000 is huge. It's about the size of the entire Belgian army. How is that not diversion. von Lettow-Vorbeck held no hope of defending German East Africa for long. He only wished to pin down troops, and this he did. "After a series of retreats and evasive manoeuvres, in 1917 he slimmed his troops down to the fittest 3,000 or so (mostly the ones who had not succumbed to malaria) and set off to invade Portuguese East Africa rather than be trapped on German territory." [2]. He was in fact advancing successfully into Northern Rhodesia at the time he heard of the surrender. He and his men were definitely not about to starve.
By the way, I looked at the page's history. [3] seems to be the first change from the original "Treaty of Versailles" to "Stalemate". The same guy then changes his mind ("actually that would be even more accurate") and puts "Tactical German victory" instead [4]. It was then changed to "British victory" [5] without comment. Another user adds the Belgian commander, and chages the result to "British-Belgian victory" [6]. The original guy then comes back here [7], and explains "germans acheived their goal of tieing up large entente foces". After this our argument begins.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 22:47, 24 October 2009 (UTC)
Sorry for the confusion, the reason I thought a link was broke was the orphan closing tag so I copyed and pasted the address, my mistake. As to German tactical victory. The Germans had no chance of holding DOA and knew it. The bes they could hope (and the avowed stratergy) was to tie down as many allied troops as posible for as long as posible (and by the way they were able to invade and defeat Portugese troops as late as 1917 (the 'abandonment') re-entering GOA in September of 1918 (using that same logis a re-conquest. Its ture that as a real threat (except to the portugese) Von Lettow Vorbeks forces had ceased to be one in 1917. Its also possible that the South Africans would have been unwilling to deploy such a large force outside Africa. But Von Lettgow Vorbek did tie down large numbers of allied forces in DOA for years of pointless fighting in a classic of gurrila warefare. Could he have held out much longer, doubtfull I suspect he only had another couple of months in him at best. But he achived (his limited) aims, the allies failed to achive thiers. that is to my mind a tactical victory.Slatersteven (talk) 14:40, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to copy this discussion to the Talk page.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 19:09, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
Godd idea, and I would add this. In battle for the Bundu the author has this to say about Von Lettow Vorbeks Berlin Parade “It did not matter, no one needed immaculate goose-stepping grey ranks to be reminded that Germanys only undefeated army was giving the beaten nation its only victory parade”Slatersteven (talk) 19:23, 25 October 2009 (UTC)


I think this is the best place to have this discussion.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 19:25, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

OK, it sghould also be noted that many sources call Von Lettow Vorbek Germanys onlu undefeated general.Slatersteven (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2009 (UTC)
What don't you two understand about this? He failed in his strategy, and he was forced to surrender in the end. It doesn't matter that his force was not totally destroyed, it is the end that counts! Besides a source has been found. I doubt you'l find a source that calls this a German victory of any sorts. Its just ludicrous. Dapi89 (talk) 12:23, 26 October 2009 (UTC)
His stratery was to tie up allied forces, he did. His startergy was never to try and hold DOA. He was not forced to surrender, he did so after his country surrenderd (he had to be informed by the British that the war was over (November 14) and did not actualy surrender untill November 23, 12 days after the end of the great war). I did find a source (I susgest you read my ppost of 25 October 2009.Slatersteven (talk) 15:25, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Wrong. As per the sources, his strategy was diversion - he FAILED. Perhaps he should read sources instead of wikipedians opinions. And the essay of Crowe's (which I note is full of errors) is not very good. It is written more like hero-worship than an academic paper. Dapi89 (talk) 13:00, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Which sources? Battle for the Bundu says that his stratergy was to compel the emeny to bring in the largest posible force thus diverting men and materials (slight abridgement on my part, but essentials the same), not division. Crowes essay? I assume then that the battle for the Bundo quotes it, but it does not contradioct it.Slatersteven (talk) 13:54, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Whether Vettow-Vorbeck’s strategy was successful is one issue, but there is another issue you are avoiding. He was never defeated. Nor was he near defeat. (He was on his way to South-West Africa when he heard of the defeat!) Hostilities ceased. If Lettow-Vorbeck was never defeated, then how can you say his opposers were victorious? You are looking at post-war events. Spain ceded Puerto Rico in 1898, but it was never defeated militarily there. (See Puerto Rican Campaign infobox) German East Africa was in a similar position. There should be no argument as to whether the article should be titled ‘Allied victory’. Let us put ‘stalemate’ or ‘inconclusive’ instead now, before we continue discussing if Lettow-Vorbeck met his objectives.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 20:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Here is another source: "Lettow-Vorbeck waged a highly mobile hit and run guerrilla-style campaign that was still humiliating the British allied forces when the armistice was signed in 1918 ending the war in Europe. During his four-year campaign, he had tied up almost a million allied troops from the Ivory Coast, The Gambia, Nigeria, South Africa, British East Africa, Uganda, Zanzibar, the Belgian Congo and Mozambique as well India, the West Indies and Britain itself."

APA: (2008). Funny money. African Business, (343), 78-79. http://search.ebscohost.com

MLA: "Funny money." African Business 343 (2008): 78-79. Advanced Placement Source. EBSCO. Web. 29 Oct. 2009

--189.33.12.27 (talk) 21:45, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

An "African busniess" source? Are you kidding? "Humiliating", are you kidding? His Army was starving and he was living on borrowed time. "A million men" no chance. As I have said, IT'S THE END the matters. One does not have to beaten on the battlefield to lose a campaign, or a war. Dapi89 (talk) 23:47, 29 October 2009 (UTC)

Did you read the paragraph, "Whether . . . objectives"?
I believe the source is actually a book, but source is comprehensive. Where did you get the picture that his army was starving? And "on borrowed time"? Are you kidding? He fought for over four whole years! And what is this about the end? In the end, Lettow "ceased" his campaign on November 17th. He never admitted defeat. That is the end of the article, because this article is about a specific military campaingn, not about diplomatic negotiations half year after the campaign ended. The ultimate political outcome of events should be mentioned, but "victory" must refer to a military victory. The Entente never acheived a military victory to the East Africa Campaign. That is unarguable.--189.33.12.27 (talk) 00:23, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Battle for the Bunda has this to say "When Hawkinf told Von Leetow that his battalions food supplies had been exausted...the German commander came to the rescu8e, cutting ouot a lerge portion the the shutztruppens cattle herd".Slatersteven (talk) 13:54, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Civilian casualties[edit]

There's a discrepancy here.
The Assessments section says "one modern estimate is 100,000 dead on all sides", while the infobox says "365,000 civilian lives" on the Allied side alone. This looks wrong; as the fighting was predominantly in German East Africa, I'd have thought most of the civilian casualties would have been there, not in the Allied colonies. Or is it saying these were all killed by the German forces, regardless of location? Should this figure be in the infobox at all? Xyl 54 (talk) 21:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

Refs and cites[edit]

Did some additions and tidied existing work but used sfn's as they're the only ones I know. Can change the rest of the parentheticals if desired. Added books to new further reading section.Keith-264 (talk) 12:03, 3 March 2014 (UTC)