Talk:East Syrian Rite
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Extreme problems in this article
First of all, Sophroniscus, please do not break this article apart - there is an East Syriac rite, which is used, with variations, by five churches: the Assyrian Church of the East, the Ancient Church of the East (which is an Old Calenderist breakaway group dating from a schism in the 1960s, during the someone scandalous reign of the last hereditary Catholicos, who was assasinated after attempting to regain his office, after abdicating in order to be married, a sort of ecclesiastical Edward VIII, about a fifth the size of the larger church, which recently synchronized its calenders with that of the larger church as part of a prelude to reunification), and finally the Chaldean Catholic Church and some of the Malankara Christians in India, who historically were part of the Church of the East, but in the confusion of the Catholic invasion, sent a message for help to the Catholicos of the East, which reached, by pure accident, the Syriac Orthodox Maphrian (who was the Syriac Orthodox equivalent and second in command), and the Syriac Orthodox Church became the guardian of anti-Catholic Christians in Southwest India. Later as a result of some schisms, some Indian bishops joined the Church of the East.
I have just done a major overhaul of this article in which I, citing a web reference, deleted an outright falsehood: "The other Sacraments in use among the Nestorians are Baptism, with which is always associated an anointing, which as in other eastern rites answers to Confirmation, Holy Order and Matrimony, but not Penance or Unction of the sick. The latter appears to be unknown to the Nestorians, though Assemani ("Bibliotheca Orientalis", pt. Ii, p. cclxxii) considers it might be shown from their books that its omission was a modern error. The Chaldean Catholics now have a form not unlike the Byzantine and West Syrian." - the Assyrian Church of the East actually DOES consider the annointing of the sick with oil a Sacrament, but not matrimony, and a present link can be found on an official Assyrian Church of the East diocesan webpage here.
In addition, it should be noted that the Assyrians I know find it offensive when people refer to them as Nestorian, even though they do venerate Nestorius as a Saint, and one of their three Anaphoras is named in his honor, and they do follow a semi-Nestorian Christology (although the current Patriarch Mar Dinkha IV expressly repudiated some aspects of Nestorianism as heretical upon assuming the throne of St. Thomas in 1975). Pursuant to that I've added to the section that claims otherwise a citation needed, as well as added several other citation needed requests throughout the article. Finally, I have changed all uses of the word "Nestorian" to "Church of the East" or "Assyrian Church of the East" as appropriate. In addition, the Syriac Orthodox Church was referred to as "Monophysite", which Syriac Orthodox find deeply offensive because they maintain their Christology is in fact Neophysite, and Monophysite, and Jacobite (except among their Indian community) are generally considered to be sectarian smears by members of that church (as the very article on it on this Wiki attests). Let us please, with patience and humility, improve this article, by resolving to refer to each church in this article by its proper name, and not by designations such as Nestorian, Monophysite or Jacobite, that some members might find offensive (for that matter, Armenian Orthodox find being referred to as "Gregorian" as offensive, as this is somewhat analogous to referring to Roman Catholics as "Papists", and also finally, by making sure everything is properly cited, but let us please retain this article in an integral form, because there are four or five really interesting churches using this rite (the Syriac Orthodox Church uses a hybrid of this rite and the West Syriac Rite in its Eastern Provinces centered around Tikrit, presided over by the Maphrian, the Syriac Orthodox Catholicos of the East), and it seems to me this wiki would be best served by discussing them in one place, comparing them with each other and also with the related, but substantially different, West Syriac Rite.
I have one question also, which I would very much like it if someone could address in the article (again, following the guidelines of citing references and not using what is near as dang-it sectarian hate speech in referring to the different churches in question): the Chaldean Catholics in their services make dramatic use of percussion music, in the form of cymbals and bells, yet I've never heard this in a service of the Assyrian Church of the East. I'm going to ask the Assyrians about this during the week, but a verbal answer by a priest obviously is not Encyclopedic material; it would be very nice if one of the editors of this article could find an article which states whether or not the use of percussion music by the Chaldeans is reflective of an older East Syriac tradition that the Church of the East later abandoned, or whether or not it is an innovation on the part of the Chaldeans, or a local variation that happened to be associated with those Bishophrics that became Catholic in opposition to the hereditary Catholicosate that reigned from the 16th century through 1975.
God bless all of you, and may we all work together fruitfully to make this article even more interesting and informative than it is today!
In my humble opinion
In my humble opinion some parts of this article relate to the Assyrian Church of the East and not to some other East Syrian Churches. As such, I intend to remove those sections or move them to the article to which they refer when I get a bit more free time...
--Sophroniscus 18:26, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Sts. Adaeus and Maris
Please, note that there's a link in the text that is supposed to link to 2 apostles (Sts. Adaeus and Maris), but does actually link to 1 Greek poet and 1 pagan god. Those who know something about these apostles would better create new articles about them (or at least change the links, so that they are red, but correct =). 184.108.40.206 (talk) 09:02, 13 October 2008 (UTC)
Is the use of 'Latin Church' correct? The writer seems to confuse 'Latin' with the Roman Catholic Church. Latin لاتين is used in some Arab countries to refer to Roman Catholics, but that term should not be used in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 02:16, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
- Yes, the terminology is correct. The distinction is between Latin Catholics and Eastern Catholics, both of whom are Roman Catholics. The Latin Church is the part of the Catholic Church that uses the Latin Rite (ie, the majority of the Catholic Church). Eastern Catholics (including churches that use the East Syrian Rite) are also Roman Catholics.--Cúchullain t/c 13:22, 23 January 2012 (UTC)