Talk:Eastern Orthodox Church

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Please don't start a war[edit]

Peple please don't edit these article based on the principle that you find some info in catholic or orthodox sources. Because catholic sources express catholic point of view (usually all info in english, latin, italian, spanish) Because orthodox express orthodox point of view (usually all info in greek and russian)

Look at as a source This conflict is very old, almost 1000 years old.

Both churches consider themselves better than each other.

So a few things:

1) Orthodox are not catholics 2) Orthodox name themselves just Christian 3) Some people mistakenly name greek catholics as orthodox. 4) The official name of orthodox is "Christian Church", alternative is "Eastern Ortodox Christian Church"

official site is :

p.s: I deleted a racist interpretation, from a catholic source about the name 'Eastern Ortodox Catholic Church'

Simply it doesn't make sense, and clearly some religios fanatic did this edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Necromantiarian (talkcontribs) 15:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

This has been gone into at length above, under the heading Orthodox is not Catholic. Please see that discussion. I'd point in particular to my own remark there, that "I must say this seems to be one of the more pointless arguments on Wikipedia. The reality is quite clear: 1) The Eastern Orthodox Church in various official and church-approved documents applies the word Catholic to itself, and 2) in common usage, the use of the word Catholic to refer to a religion is understood to refer to the Roman Catholic church. The current article reflects this reality perfectly well. Incidentally, a pretty precisely parallel situation obtains in regard to The Church of England and the Episcopal Church, both of which call themselves Catholic, as is stated on their Wikipedia pages, and no one seems to be arguing about this on the associated Talk pages." Littlewindow (talk) 23:11, 18 October 2014 (UTC)
OK so let me see if I understand correctly the point Necromantiarian is making. To use the word catholic ("katholikos") as is used IN the Greek language right now TODAY and it is used to mean universal as well as the official name of the Greek church. To say this is racist? [1] The word catholic is not native to any other language per se but Greek it is taken from the Greek language and just spoken as it is used in the Greek language. It's not translated into the equivalent word in whatever alternate language outside of Greek one might be using. That practice is not the Greeks' fault. But now Greeks can't use their own words to describe themselves and their church?
As the same general meaning for the catholic is universal and the Latin term for Universial is the Latin word Universa but the Latin and Western Christian churches refuses to use whatever word for Universal happens to be given in the language being used and therefore the Greeks can't use their own words. Why can't the Latin church use Latin why does it have to use Greek? Since it has been warring on the Greek since the Great Schism why would it use the Greek culture it so much finds to be wrong? So now because people don't care to read or learn, the Greeks must now give up the word Catholic from their language and culture, because Rome has claimed ownership of the Greek word? Because the Western churches don't want to use Universa or Universal to name themselves no they want the Greek word catholic all to themselves and to make sure the Greeks can't use their own words to describe themselves. Does anyone see how absolutely wrong that sounds? There is no difference in the non-sequitor internal logic of this and the reasons used to say that Latin language has to use the filioque (even though the original Creed in Latin did not have it and it got ADDED) and the idea that once it was in there in Latin that the filiqoue should be in every language. Because it is needed in Latin? It is an impossible logic as it really is not logical at all. This is impossible and I am going to work on other things here that are not open to this kind of outrageous logical gymnastics.. LoveMonkey 19:42, 20 October 2014 (UTC)
As I said before, this is pointless. The Episcopal (American Anglican) Book of Common prayer calls the Episcopal Church "Catholic" in about three dozen places, including in the Creed which is usually repeated aloud by every member every Sunday. I believe the British and other Anglican versions of the book have similar language. Is anyone going to go over to the Anglican talk pages and start screaming about this? Littlewindow (talk) 23:36, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Meaning of Orthodox, especially "doxa"[edit]

@Esoglou, this matter has received attention before on this article. The use of the root word "doxa" in building the word "orthodox" does not employ the more commonplace meaning of doxa, which is often translated "belief" or "opinion". That, of course, is the meaning you are picking up on in the dictionary. It is this general secular use of the word that most dictionaries pick up on and that cause them to mistranslate in this case. But Bishop Kallistos in "The Orthodox Church" makes clear that there is an additional meaning to the Greek doxa, and that that meaning is the one employed in creating the word orthodox (in the ecclesiastical sense). That meaning is "glory", and it refers to the glorification of God in correct worship in Orthodox church services. This is a specific teaching of the church about its own use of the word and its significance, and it is in contrast to the secular usage and meaning which one finds so often listed in general-purpose dictionaries who are defining the usual meaning of orthodox for secular purposes, and are unaware of Orthodox Church teachings. All this is less of a mystery to native speakers of Greek, who understand both senses, both because it is their native language and because they are often aware of Orthodox teaching as well. This is why I have reverted your edits. Evensteven (talk) 14:55, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

This is supported by the calques in the Slavic languages, which translate literally as "Right Glory/Praise", as well as the word "Doxology", which means "Word of Praise". Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 22:48, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
My attention has been drawn, Evensteven, to what you have addressed to me here. May I be permitted to say that Bishop Kallistos does not agree with what you put in the article. According to you, the word "Orthodox" is "a union of Greek orthos ('straight' 'correct' 'true' 'right') and doxa ('glory' as in Doxa Patri, 'Glory to the Father')". Bishop Kallistos says that the Greek word δόξα means more than that: according to him, and I quote, the word "Orthodoxy" has the double meaning of "right belief" and "right glory" (or "right worship"). Authoritative sources to which I gave links also disagree with what you say is the meaning of the -doxy part of the English word, and you know well that this is the English Wikipedia.
The question of the meaning of Православие, whose literal meaning I know, and which doubtless underlies Bishop Kallistos's second interpretation, is irrelevant. The English word "Orthodoxy", which we're talking about, is not derived from that.
There might be some point in considering the meaning of Ὀρθοδοξία, from which the English word is derived. You rightly say, "All this is less of a mystery to native speakers of Greek, who understand both senses, both because it is their native language and because they are often aware of Orthodox teaching as well." (Και δεν ήξερας ότι μιλώ ελληνικά; = Didn't you know I speak Greek?) If you want your view to appear in the Greek Wikipedia, you may be able to change it from what it says at present: Η λέξη ορθοδοξία παράγεται από το ορθός (σωστός) και δόξα (σκέψη, πίστη, διδασκαλία) = "The word ορθοδοξία is derived from ορθός (right) and δόξα (thought, belief, doctrine)". But you won't be able to change what I find in my printed dictionary: προέρχεται από το επιθ. ὀρθός και το ουσ. δόξα στην αρχική σημασία «γνώμη, άποψη» (it comes from the adjective ὀρθός and the noun δόξα in the original meaning "opinion, view"). Esoglou (talk) 20:11, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
If those with a particular interest in this article want it to continue to say what you make it say, I won't interfere. If you want me to continue to discuss it, ping me or leave me a message on my Talk page. I have no plans to return any time soon. Esoglou (talk) 20:11, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
User:Esoglou, my apologies if I have offended. No, I didn't know you spoke Greek. I do not. I took what I have from Bishop Kallistos, confirmed by others who do. I grant your strong points, and they make me want to reconsider, at least in part. Bishop Kallistos does, after all, speak of the double meaning, and he is not the only Orthodox teacher I have heard who does so. My trouble with "belief" here is that I have seen others (not you) try to use this meaning to imply "only belief and nothing but belief". That is clearly contrary to the teaching of the church, whether Bishop Kallistos gives it or not. Therefore, it is not appropriate to substitute one for the other. I would propose a merging of some sort. However, I remember trying to formulate one in the past and found it so cumbersome that it would have ended up to the detriment of the article (imo). Maybe with your help we could construct something workable. I could certainly have overlooked a solution in the past. Evensteven (talk) 21:52, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
You have not at all offended me, and I apologize for using language that gave you that impression. My strong expressions were not intended for you personally but in defence of reporting what reliable sources explicitly say and against replacing that with an interpretation based unsourcedly on a less basic meaning of the word δόξα/doxa. Merging would be indeed good. Say what the sources, all of them, including Bishop Kallistos, say, rather than build an argument on the meaning of δόξα in unrelated phrases such as "Δόξα Πατρὶ καὶ ..." (Glory be to the Father and ...).
I prefer not to have this article on my watchlist, although I think it now no longer suffers from the defect of talking not so much about what the Eastern Orthodox Church teaches as about what other Churches supposedly teach. It was not in keeping with the dignity of the Orthodox Church to present it as a body that exists to protest against others and that is annoyed if any other group dares to say it agrees with what the Orthodox Church positively teaches – in line with Karl Barth's phrase (as reported by Hans Küng), "das verdammte katholische Und" (the damned Catholic "and"). I visited this article recently only because I had met, inserted elsewhere for the first time, that same inventive explanation of the origin of the word "Orthodox", and I thought it might also be here. Esoglou (talk) 06:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm very glad there was no irritation. I'm trying to slough off the effects of having participated where there is virulent strife on WP, and have perhaps become too ready to see the possibility. I certainly share your stated goals: reflecting all the sources, and Orthodox teaching. I'll take another look at how to accomplish a merge (unless you want to give it another try - I find your editing in general well-researched and well stated - it really made me hesitate to revert). If you want to drop this article from your watchlist, I will nevertheless ping you with my edit, for I'd like you to pass on it as it enters the article. It may be worth saying again, though, that what "Orthodox" means to the church is not the same as what it means in general usage. And it's not so much that it has a separate particular meaning or a less basic meaning, but that it has a more comprehensive, inclusive one: not just "belief", but also "glory". From what I understand, the former constitutes the general meaning in Greek as well, while the dual meaning constitutes the ecclesiastical meaning. One Greek word for two meanings, a common enough occurrence in English as well, except that the second Greek meaning is attached to the church's teaching (naturally, in an Orthodox nation), whereas only the first transferred readily to English (naturally, in a non-Orthodox nation). It's that fussy etymology that I want to prevent from becoming cumbersome in the article. And just to be more fully clear, "belief" itself is only something of an approximation as to the first meaning also - not that doxa truly denotes something else, but that it subtly connotes a more deeply-held or deeply-formed entity within a person than is always implied in English use. In the case of the church teaching, belief itself is held to require depth of purpose and acceptance, and cannot be superficial and still be "belief". The dual ecclesiastical meaning of doxa represents an extenuation of that depth of purpose and acceptance beyond simple belief, into glory, and how glorification is expressed in worship, as in "Glory to the Father and ...", so you see, it's not all really unrelated. There's more to this teaching than simple etymology, but the word doxa (or, rather, Orthodox) is used to pack it into a single expression. Dictionaries are just not going to go into such depth in providing a definition. And somehow, encyclopedias still need to be brief. Evensteven (talk) 17:11, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
I think the meaning of doxa going all the way back to ancient Greek that underlies all the diverse meanings is "recognition," though that word is too pallid for what is meant. It's something that necessarily deserves to be recognized. Littlewindow (talk) 19:28, 16 October 2014 (UTC)
Could be; that's not something I have heard. But we do need to remember here that it's the word "Orthodox" that we are trying to give the meaning for, in the sense that the church uses it, and "doxa" is only contributory, and that not in a complete manner. Evensteven (talk) 22:10, 16 October 2014 (UTC)


The problem with the edit at Catholic Church was that it was 'Information about what the other churches think about the Catholic Church's claims'. The assertion here on this article is about claims which other Churches make about themselves. Here it is a comparison of belief, a very germane one and one which is likely to explain, to the English-speaking world which reads Wikipedia, composed of people very familiar with Catholic and Anglican churches, that the less-familiar Orthodox have the same belief of apostolic succession. Also, decisions and consensus on one article do not necessarily affect decisions on another article. Run an RFC in a centralized location if you want to make such a sweeping decision. Elizium23 (talk) 22:40, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion; I will initiate an RfC. It seems clear to me that a consistent standard should be applied to the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodox Church articles. Other church's claims to be One true church seem equally relevant to both articles, and I don't see why such competing claims by these other churches about themselves would be presented in one article (Eastern Orthodox) and not the other (Catholic). The Catholic Church edits also referenced other churches claims about themselves. It was the editor who deleted them who stated that those edits presented 'Information about what the other churches think about the Catholic Church's claims.' Such information is only by implication (e.g. if a different church says it is the true church, then by implication the Catholic is not), which argument applies identically here. Piledhighandeep (talk) 22:49, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

Since you say, "the English-speaking world which reads Wikipedia, composed of people very familiar with Catholic and Anglican churches," is "less-familiar Orthodox have the same belief of apostolic succession" then it seems it is more important to place that section on the English Catholic Church page (whose readers will be unaware of the Eastern Orthodox church's claims) than to place it on the English Eastern Orthodox page (whose readers are, you think, already likely to know that the Catholic Church makes similar claims). Piledhighandeep (talk) 23:06, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm no theologian, but I do know what apostolic succession is and basically what role it plays in the history of some major churches, and it seems to me that the statement which was removed, "Like the Catholic Church, Anglican Communion, Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy and some other churches, Orthodox bishops trace their lineage back to the apostles through the process of apostolic succession," is a straightforward and accurate though simplified statement of doctrine. I don't see any implications of competing claims in it. Incidentally, the assumption that Anglicans "will be unaware of the Eastern Orthodox church's claims" would have come as a surprise to the Anglican priest who explained this to me. Littlewindow (talk) 15:29, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

This is an issue of knowledge. I say that because apostolic succession does not mean the same thing between communities. Anyone that knows the history of Ephesus or about the history of the Island of Patmos knows that the other communities mentioned don't have the archaeology to back up their statement let alone the history. There is nothing the RC have that encapsulates the history St Saint Catherine's Monastery and the bible. There is no Protestant church nor the Church of England that can say they can show like St Catherine's that their community generated the bible and was part of the Jewish and Early Christian communitees and was a location of authenticate history and authority. There is more to this claim than just making it. From an Eastern POV look for example at the Patriarch of Antioch no Protestant claims this historical establishment (as once theirs and taken away or ever theirs to begin with) nor the people whom populated the position of Patriarch do Protestants claim. They have no history to such a place nor to any people with any lineage to the location or church as it is in the Middle East nor the languages or cultures that Christianity was founded in and fostered by. As for the schism churches they do not claim all of the Patriarchy locations only the one that was part of their community as only the Eastern Orthodox can claim the language, the bible and all of the original Apostles and the respective communities that they established. There is no history at all of any Protestant churches in the Middle East until recent. As for the RC they never have, because if that were true, they would not have had to go and by force establish their own on top of what has been there all along (as their claims are usually debunk by historical facts like the establishment of the Latin Empire. There is no history of anyone in the East saying that the Roman Church had ultimate authority over them or Christianity as a whole, there is ample church history and doctrine and none of it ever stated that the Church in Italy was considered a de-facto head over any other church let alone all of the churches. As for the language as such Rome provided protection to Christians until it turned on the Eastern Church as things like the mass murder committed against Eastern Christians in the name of Rome historically can attest (for example the Battle on the Ice and the sacking of Novgorodor the Times of Troubles or the Sack of Constantinople or the Sack of Thessalonica (1185) or the Byzantine–Norman wars or the Byzantine–Genoese War (1348–49) or the Crimean War. There is more but it get redundant. LoveMonkey 20:50, 13 October 2014 (UTC)
I still don't see the relevance of all that. The statement in question (which was deleted from the article) was simply a statement of what the EO and some other churches believe. It was, so far as I can see, an accurate statement of those beliefs, so it belongs in the article. The article isn't the place to argue about the validity of the beliefs, including omitting the statement because not everyone agrees with the beliefs. Littlewindow (talk) 01:11, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
To briefly summarize this issue (at least why I brought it up), you need to compare this page to the symmetrical situation on the Catholic Church page. On the Catholic article it was decided that it is inappropriate to mention that other churches also claim apostolic succession and that such claims are properly located only on those other churches' own pages. This Orthodox Church article reflected the opposite editorial choice, listing all other churches claiming apostolic succession. I believe the two articles (Catholic and Orthodox) need to deal with this issue in the same evenhanded manner, one way or the other. I believe the fear on both articles, for adherents to each article's faith, is that mentioning counterclaims to apostolic succession by other churches in their own church's article subtly delegitimizes their church's claims. This concern, however, applies equally to the Catholic and Orthodox articles. The two should be treated the same, I think. Piledhighandeep (talk) 05:58, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Piledhighandeep. This is the article on the Eastern Orthodox Church, not on the rest of the other churches which were mentioned in the now removed sentence. This is not an article on comparative dogmas. It is POV and devalues the dogma of the Eastern Orthodox Church to mention all the other churches in the same sentence. It fits the meme: "Like everybody else this church also claims apostolic succession". This distorts the historical importance of the Eastern Orthodox Church, because only the Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Churches were the successors of the Early Church. Putting them all in one basket is ahistorical and POV. I especially liked the phrase "and some other churches". Can anyone get any more weasel than that? Δρ.Κ. λόγοςπράξις 06:41, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Well Dr K I too am in agreement with this position as I have brought up before to Esoglou that the Eastern Churches tradition was that St James was the head of the early Christians as Jerusalem is considered the Mother Church, before any such history of Peter, Peter was the Bishop of Antioch and then after Pope Linus (the first Bishop of Rome according to Orthodox tradition, Irenaeus) the 2nd Bishop of Rome. It is also true that me and several other editors have tried to point these things out (User:Cody7777777, User:Montalban, User:Rscole) in articles like the Primacy of the Bishop of Rome. We get sanctioned or banned our contributions removed before any discussion and not restored. I just hope that any editors inform themselves of this kind of thing before they walk into it or get entangled as NPOV is very subjective and pretty much defined at the discretion of whatever administrator at the moment sees fit to define it. I hope they stay out of trouble as I can still remember the horrible treatment here that I got on the Filioque article and the theological article (Eastern Orthodox – Roman Catholic theological differences) for pointing out that the incomprehensible essence of God is personified by the Father hypostasis and not something onto itself as the Roman Catholic church treats the word God (in Trinity), in its theology and then decries Palamas as making unfounded distinctions in God (the essence and energy distinction) as they themselves caused those by making such a distinction through the filioque in the first place. Anyway I agree with you and the other editor so I am bowing out. LoveMonkey 13:42, 14 October 2014 (UTC)
Small addendum the Apostolic Constitutions which is pretty much what the East follows (as I have understanding) says that St Linus was the first Bishop of Rome and that the church that Linus headed was founded by St Paul not St Peter. As from what I understand (and could possibly be misinformed) Paul founded the church of Rome and Paul and Peter are attached to Rome because both were executed there. As Rome was part of Paul's ministry and Peter was almost exclusive to Antioch. Also the teaching that God is the essence of God (uncreated)the economy of God (energies) and the Trinity (hypostasis) is Palamas, however the teaching that God is Father, Son, Holy Spirit and essence is a quadri-trian teaching since in the East God the Father is the incomprehensibility of God in hypostasis [2]. LoveMonkey 14:02, 15 October 2014 (UTC)
[intervening edit conflict] The Apostolic Constitutions is a set of early (3rd century?) writings, primarily about church governance and teaching: canons, clerical duties and relationships, liturgical practices, and the like. I am unsure about their containing historical information, except perhaps by allusion. However, I too have understood St Linus to be the first bishop of Rome, because both Peter and Paul were apostles, not strictly bishops, although the distinction may not have been tightly drawn in the lifetimes of the apostles. (An apostle is "sent out" to the whole church, having all authority, for the "laying on of hands" (ordination) in particular, but is not yoked to a specific community, but rather to the church as a whole. A bishop is given identical authority, but in order to lead a specific community, thus being associated with the growth of the church from a particular station or "see".) While it is true that St Peter was highly associated with Antioch, no apostolic office could be said to be restrictive. In my understanding, St Paul was more intimately connected with the founding of the church at Rome, but St Peter was not absent, and both were faithful in their desire to see the church grow, wherever they had been sent. No doubt, you are referring to RC claims with regards to the papacy as the "throne of Peter". While the Orthodox might see some of those claims as needlessly inflated, even fussy, I have not understood there to be any fundamental disagreement that St Peter was involved in the Roman church's formation. In the light of the subsequent schism, and various papal claims before and since, the RC church can easily make itself suspect to Orthodox eyes by overstressing particulars that are not really firmly understood, or especially significant. For the Orthodox, I think the key is that the Roman church was founded apostolically, and very soon a bishop was appointed as pastor over it. That bishop (Linus) then represented, by virtue of his office, the presence of the whole Church, now fully established in Rome, just as each other bishop likewise represents the whole Church in the location of his office. And personally, that is why I think the Orthodox do not regard St Peter as a bishop of Rome, for as an apostle, he represented the whole Church wherever he was, not just in Rome. Apostleship is not exclusive to a location.
At its root, I see this as an example of why it is best to leave statements of the claims of each church to be made in their respective articles. It is too easy to oversimplify or misstate such a position in another context, wrongly attempting too great a brevity. Besides, dealing with cross-claims or counter-claims is not only messy and space-consuming, but also disrupts the focus of each article. Evensteven (talk) 16:37, 15 October 2014 (UTC)