|WikiProject Egypt||(Rated Start-class, High-importance)|
|WikiProject Ancient Egypt||(Rated Start-class, High-importance)|
The only true sothic cycle of 1460 years has been 139ad to 1599ad. The reason for current stability (1461 days) is because sothis is at the 6 hour right ascension. However, the shifting of the right ascension prior to 139ad is so drastic that Sothis of 30 degree latitiude makes a 1452-year cycle from 1314bc July 18 to 139ad July 20. Because 2030bc July 17 is the heliacal-rising Sothis at Memphis. The Egyptians and Babylonians calculated the 1460-year cycle as 2770bc July 17 to 1310bc July 17 (chronologies prove they accepted 1313bc as July 17). Ask any astronomer, and they will tell you and show you the heliacal-rise at Memphis for 2782bc is July 17 which would be the date Epagum 3, so that Thoth does not become July 17 until 2773-2770bc. It is absolutely horrendous that this internet domain can be dominated by selfish egotistical intruders who push their weight of lies into these articles. Most of us do not waste our time anymore at the collapsing deterioration of this wikipedia. I prefer to call it Wicked-Pedia to express its footsteps.126.96.36.199 (talk) 13:21, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
I've edited this page to move the more "interesting" discussion to the bottom.
The main article doesn't make clear the significance of the Egyptian New Year's Day falling on July 20. May I presume that others assume that in the year that the calendar was started, the Egyptian New Year started with the heliacal rising of Sirius? --Vrmlguy 15:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
- The date 1322bc July 20 Thoth 1 is a lie, the observation in 1322bc was visible on July 18. And so Thoth did not slip back to it until 1314bc. So too the observation 2782bc July 20 is also a lie. The observation was visible on 2782bc July 17, which means Thoth slipped back to it in 2770bc. Wikipedia allows liars to moderate things that were trashed 60 years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk • contribs) 00:08, 28 September 2011
What evidence is there for the following statement?
- It was used by astronomers in the Middle Ages because of its mathematical regularity.
This sounds very dubious. —Nefertum17 23:01, 18 Feb 2005 (UTC)
- Use Calendrica listed in External links. It is in the ninth row. — Joe Kress 19:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
- Answer: You use the date July 20 of 1599 AD as Thot 1 and retreat one date back every 4 years, or 30 days back in 120 years. Example, 240 years is 60 days back to May 21 of 1839 AD, or Apr 21 of 1959 AD, then add 13 days in our 1900 or 2000 century to have Gregorian May 4 in 1959 AD. Another 44 years to 2003 AD and 11 leap days takes all the dates back to April 23. Then 2004-2007 is April 22. In reply to the post below which says the Coptic calendar is not Egyptian, the answer is our September 11 as Thot 1 is Julian August 29. Though the Coptic calendar (Egyptian with leap days) was accepted in 284 AD (which Era of Diocletion is the Era of Christian Martyrs so coincidentally the year 6000 of Adam in the Jewish book of Josephus published in Rome), this calendar leap day was created in 27 BC by Augustus Octavius Caesar who inaugurated it in 25 BC when Thoht 1 becomes August 29. Therefore, the Coptic calendar is Julian (not Gregorian). Events against America have been on Egyptian dates. The August 2 invasion of Kuwait is Julian July 20 and the invasion takes place at 30 degrees where the rise of Sothis occurs on that date only at that latitude; this implying Saddam chose the rise to invade. However, they felt world trade controlling oil was USA blame. Another date is Thoth 1 was Feb 26 in 747 BC. In 1993 the world trade was bombed on Gregorian Feb 26 not taking into account that Julian Feb 26 is March 11 (March 10 in leap year). The Coptic calendar honors this date as the half year placing Pamenot 1 on March 10 and the internet terrorists attempt to destroy world trade by constantly revising the March 10 virus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs)
In my opinion, any reference that the Egyptian calendar is still used appears to be a misunderstanding, written by people who think that the Coptic calendar is the Egyptian calendar. The Coptic calendar differs from the Egyptian calendar by adding a leap day every four years, a feature that the Egyptian calendar never had. I can only accept a reference that it is still used if the writer knows of this difference or if the writer knows that the Egyptian New Year's Day differs from the Coptic New Year's Day by five months. In the Gregorian year labeled 2006 the Egyptian New Year's Day (1 Thoth) was 22 April, whereas the Coptic New Year's Day was 11 September. The reference to Saint's days (never used in Ancient Egypt) and the Youssef reference by a linguist proves this misunderstanding. — Joe Kress 00:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
- The coptic calendar is nearly exactly the same, and is the same principle. Treat it like this: You have one open source game engine, but you change, say, what colour the mouse is in it. They are the same engine. --220.127.116.11 17:41, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
- You assume incorrectly that the author is unaware of this rather trivial detail. The change introduced under the Ptolemies (the so-called "Alexandrian calendar") represents a simple reform to the Egyptian calendar. The Coptic calendar is a direct continuation of the Egyptian calendar with the addition of Euergetes' leap day that was adopted later. That the Egyptian calendar prior to the Graeco-Roman period did not have that feature is entirely irrelevant to the simple statement I added, which I am now going to re-add with further additions to the article. Furthermore, the population at large, who is mostly Muslim, technically does not use the official Coptic calendar, whose dating begins with the Christian 'Era of the Martyrs'. That detail did not prevent you, however, from stating that that Coptic calendar is used by "the Egyptian populace in general". This is true only in the sense that the calendar used by Egyptian Muslims is a continuation of the Coptic calendar, in turn with roots in ancient Egypt. The agricultural calendar used by Egyptian farmers today is simply the Egyptian agricultural calendar, same Egyptian seasons, same Egyptian months. — [zɪʔɾɪdəʰ] · ☥ 11:08, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Your additions to the article are very good, but I must insist that that "trivial detail", the Alexandrian reform, be mentioned relative to the modern version of the Egyptian calendar. Accordingly I am adding the one word "reformed". Your previous wording did not delimit who was using what calendar, especially the misleading sentence "It is associated with many local saint festivals throughout Egypt." There was no discussion of who uses what eras, and there still is none. I consider that a critical detail. If Egyptian Muslims don't use an era with their Egyptian calendar, then state so—but they may use a modified Hijra era, like that used in association with the Turkish version of the Julian calendar for over a century immediately prior to its adoption of the Gregorian calendar . — Joe Kress 21:29, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I submitted this information from the Carina Software Voyager program. Because everyone online seems to think Sothis rises the same day every year at every latitude. The date July 20 is Julian and comes from 30 degree GIza and Memphis. At 31 degree Alexandria (and Ur) the absence is 72 days instead of 70 because it cannot be seen July 20 and it rises a day later on July 21. Septua-Gint means 72 not 70. That's the first fact the rise is pending latitude. The further fact is that rise at Memphis is July 17 not July 20 thru the years 2782-1872bc which means in 2782bc the July 20 rise of Sothis on Thoth 1 is already the 4th rising having been seen July 17 on epagum day 3. Thus Thoth 1 must slip back 12 years 3 leap days to be July 17 the first day of rising. When information like this is submitted and deleted, it is arrogance and wicked heart that does so. So i submit no longer, and advise many never to donate cash to this cause. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 13:30, 9 July 2012 (UTC)
The source is the astral facts with historic facts. Historically the septuagint was written in Alexandria where astrally sothis is 72 days absent at 31* the same as it is in Ur at 31* not the 70 days that it is at 30* Memphis. Traditions of 70 days hold because of Egyptian foundation at Giza and then Memphis. Even at Ur, in the suicide tombs where Sothis is absent 72 days, there are only 69 graves of 2 princes, 63 wives, and 4 guards as if 69 were going to heaven to be with the 70th (Peleg). Is Tanis near Alexandria? I ask because though Israel was in Goshen (72-day absence of Sothis), they mourn Jacob 70 days at death, thus the fixation of the 30* latitude. This is why in 1990 i was asking people if the troops of Saddam were at the border 70 days before they crossed over themorn of Sothic rising (G.Aug 2 = July 20). By the way this other information here is me. 22.214.171.124 and 126.96.36.199 (no idea why these numbers change) 188.8.131.52 (talk) 09:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC) (The following table is tab-formatted. I'd fix it myself, but I'm not sure what it means or its significance to the article. --Vrmlguy 15:10, 22 October 2007 (UTC))
The Days That The Star Sothis Is Absent (mid crossing) +June 12 33° 76 days May 5 to July 20 32° 74 days May 6 to July 19 31° 72 days May 7 + to July 18 LXX (72 men 72 days) 30° 70 days May 8 to July 17 Memphis (70 men 70 days) 29° 68 days May 9 to July 16 28° 66 days May 10 to July 15 27° 64 days May 11 to July 14 26° 62 days May 12 to July 13 25° 60 days May 13 to July 12 encasing one month 24° 58 days May 14 to July 11 23° 56 days May 15 to July 10 solstice for 100 years 22° 54 days May 16 to July 9 Sothic Rising in 2030 BC varies 1° between 33°- 23° Lat one day per degree + Absence June 12 Rise date & Time Dawn Sun 40° Apr 25 96 days to July 30 3:47a -9°49’51” 39° Apr 27 92 days to July 28 3:53a -9°19’47” 38° Apr 28 90 days to July 27 3:54a -9°41’29” 37° Apr 29 88 days to July 26 3:56a -9°53’49” Nineveh 36° May 1 84 days to July 24 4:02a -9°20’58” 35° May 2 82 days to July 23 4:04a -9°32’01” 34° May 3 80 days to July 22 4:05a -9°52’32” _ 33° May 4 78 days to July 21 4:07a -10°02’53” Babel May 5 76 days to July 20 4:11a ( -9°16’52”) 32° May 6 74 days to July 19 4:13a -9°26’21” 31° May 7 72 days to July 18 4:15a -9°35’24” Ur 30° May 8 70 days to July 17 4:17a -9°43’58” 29° May 9 68 days to July 16 4:19a -9°52’06” 28° May 10 66 days to July 15 4:21a -9°59’46” 27° May 11 64 days to July 14 4:23a -10°06’59” 26° May 12 62 days to July 13 4:26a -10°02’26” 25° May 13 60 days to July 12 4:28a -10°08’34” 24° May 14 58 days to July 11 4:30a -10°14’14” 23° May 15 56 days to July 10 4:32a -10°19’26” 22° May 17 52 days to July 8 4:39a - 9°21’48”
Outright lies continually replace truth
If you delete this from discussion, it will be put in the main article, and i will write congress and the senate to close Wikipedia.
This following statement is an outright lie, and although sources neglegiently once thought this 100 years ago, people like AnonMoos like to worship such lies and then pretend nothing has never corrected it in our schools. It shows a lack of respect for the scholars who have corrected it and published it. It shows arrogance when he is one man in millions.
quote: From this it is possible to calculate that the previous occasion on which this occurred was 1322 BCE, and the one before that was 2782 BCE. This latter date has been postulated as the time when the calendar was invented, but Djer's reign preceded that date. Other historians push it back another whole cycle, to 4242 BCE.
TRUTH: not my truth but published truth, go find an astronomer rather than prove yourself this arrogant evil person you are. Fact, 1322 BC July 20 is Thoth 1, heliacal-rise occurred 2 days earlier on July 18. (fact) In, 1314 BC July 18 is Thoth 1 (it WANDERS bcause of 2 leap days) and heliacal-rise occurs. Truth, Richard Parker famed Egyptologist who AnonMoos despises by deleting Parkers research and astronomy, 1872 BC heliacal-rise occurs on July 17 at Memphis not July 20. Truth, Richard Parker therefore corrects 2782 BC Thoth 1 July 20 as the 3rd day after July 17 heliacal-rise, 2770 BC July 17 is Thoth 1.
quote: The heliacal rising of Sothis returned to the same point in the calendar every 1460 years (a period called the Sothic cycle).
That is false, the New YearThoth 1 returns in 1460 years not Sothis prior to 139 AD. It has been 1460 years only since 139 AD where no one has used Egypts calendar but rather the Julian calendar which is absolutely Sothic since 139 AD.
quote: The difference between a seasonal year and a civil year was therefore 365 days in 1460 years, or 1 day in 4 years.
This is false, a Sothis year is not seasonal. any Mayan scholar will tell you taht 1508 haab is 1508 egyptian years or 1507 Gregorian years which are seasonal. That means that in 1460 years or 1507 years or 1508 years is 377 days not 365 days. The seasonal year is 12 days less than the sothic julian year and so the egyptian calendar has to WANDER back another 12 days in 48 years.
How come AnonMoos is allowed to ruled. How come he isn't forced to consult an accurate scholar. This country has had three attacks on Egyptian dates including Thoth 1 September 11 and i will write President Bush and ask if AnonMoos is involved. I am serious. The FBI will be on your ass if you think you can twist pertinent information that China has to question should be banned or not, and you think our children should go to your twisted almighty lies as reference material.
- How many times must you be told that this is false astrology not true astronomy. The 1460-year cycle is calendar not Sothic. 1461 egyptian years = 1460 Julian years but does not equal Sothis. The star Sothis from 2782 BC to 1872 BC is known to rise 3 days earler than it did in 139 AD to 240 AD. So if Memphis those dates are July 17 drifting to July 20. But you continue to replace the truth with lie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk • contribs) 05:51, 12 October 2009
heliacal rising of Sirius
Did you realize, that in your article is mathematic mistake? If there was heliacal rising in year 1322 BCE and the cycle is 1460 years, how could be heliacal rising in year 139 CE? Wasn't it year 138?
--Niusereset czech Wiki-user 13.XI. MMVII 13:20 CET
The difference between 1322 BCE and 139 CE is 1460 years because there was no year 0. All calculations that involve both BCE and CE have to adjust to take this into account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 11:58, 16 January 2008 (UTC) Astrally the year 1322bc is labelled as -1321. Leap years are thus divisible by 4 in the astral system not the BC system. example 2369bc is leap year, it is -2368. example Mayan 3113bc is leap year it is -3112. Further the actual Censorinus record calculated by astronomy as 139 AD July 20 is calculated by calendar as 140 AD July 21. This is a 2 day discrepancy since 140 AD is a leap year so that Thoth July 20 in 139 becomes July 19 in 140 AD, or Thoth July 22 in 139 becomes Thoth July 21 in 140. Since the natural rising doesnt leap the same year the calendar does, I guess July 20 was the solution as the average rise every year (Memphis latitude). The reason July 20 has stood the most recent 1460 years is because the star is currently on the axis line of the summer solstice 6-hour Right Ascension. The distance before that line in 1322bc is an angle that makes Sothis appear 2 days earlier as well as being 3 days earlier in 2782bc and 2770bc. This is why it is so pathetic that you list Richard Parker as a source while you ignore his pointing out July 17 for all years 2782bc to 1872bc. His 1991bc 12th dynasty is based on year 120 (1872bc July 17) and yet you keep claiming July 20. And since Thoth is July 20 in 139 but not 140, they then conclude the year recorded as 140 must be a mistake for 139. I fail to see the reasoning. There is no logic being used by them.18.104.22.168 (talk) 08:59, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Alleged "texts" from the reign of Djer - dubious
"A text from the reign of First Dynasty King Djer (c.3000 BC) indicates that the Egyptians had already established a link between the heliacal rising and the beginning of the year."
A text from the reign of Djer, eh? This needs sourcing. My understanding is that there are no known "texts" from the reign of Djer. In fact, the first complete sentences do not even appear until around the time of Peribsen. Anyone know if there is a Reliable source for this and most of the other unsourced "statements" in this article??? Many thanks, Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 10:37, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
- OK, I looked into this myself and found some more accurate info - will be updating the article with refs shortly... Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 11:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
The rising of Sothis is in Genesis. The 70 days of Sothic absence is the reason they morn Jacob 70 days. The 365-day calendar begins with those 70 days (May 8 to July 17). Manetho uses a 5200bc Adam. It is proven that he thinks Menes is Adam because his 1st dynasty begins 930 years later in 4270bc when his Adam (Menes) would have died and 1st dynasty kings would be successors of him. He then says the 7th dynasty was 70 kings who ruled 70 days. And this falls in 2770bc which then means he is using the May 8 thru July 17 system. As for Genesis long chronology, it avoids doing what short Genesis does which is place those 70 days at the death of Peleg when Unas Sakkara died. This is because in short Genesis his death is year 340 after the Flood, but in Egyptian it is 3090-2321bc (768 years after it, with another 768 to Moses). AS for new years day, the same word is used for Thoth as Sothis, yet Thoth is on Sothis for only 4 years every 1460 years. It is also a word used for winter solstice and summer solstice. The date Parmuti 16 is said to be 1872bc July 17 which is 8 days after July 9 summer solstice (July 10 in 1991bc). But 48 years later in 1824bc July 10 is a rise of Sothis at 12th dynasty Fort Quban on 23*latitude on PERSIAN Parmuti 16, and 185 days after Egyptian Paopi 16 is on January 6 (winter solstice was Jan 6 in 1991bc and Jan 5 in 1824bc). You see I beleive every calendar shows a global disaster by comet encounter in the year of exodus and every nation decided to add 180 leap days for their pasty 720 years of 365-day calendar. China and Maya both pivot their calendars on the year 1513bc, and the 1444 years that Greeks use as 2958-1514bc is used by Africanus as 3237-1793bc (end of his Noahs Flood to an exodus leaving Hamurabi of Babylon. He further says the flood of Ogygos (destruction of Greece by the flood of Thera Atlantis) was the same year as exodus. Information from Jack Finegan chronology. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 09:17, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
More dates, please
It would be nice to know when the first undiputed use of this calendar began. We are told that the 3000 BC date is "too early", but not what a more reasonable estimate might be. When was the lunisolar calendar thought to be used? When did the Copts add the leap day? Etc. Rwflammang (talk) 14:07, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
WHEN? My personal belief is this calendar began 2030bc on July 17 (340 years after a 2370bc global Flood that carbon dates as 20,000bc). This 2030bc July 17 which now appears calculated as a Pamenot 6, is retained as Persian Pamenot 1. However, for those who do not wish this Bible Genesis view of calendar at Peleg's death, you will be happy to know that original Septuagint chronologies and pre-Roman chronologies of nations use 2770bc July 17 (Thoth 1). For NeoBabylon (747bc) this is a Flood of 2947bc and a calendar 177 years later (6-orbit Saturnalia of Saturn). It is derived from Ur ruling 177 years as 2207-2030bc, but the fall in 2029bc is later regarded as 3rd dynasty because Ibbi-Sin is in Ur and scholars will not believe he lived 159 years (2060-1901bc) to have died in a 3rd dynasty (2009-1900bc). It is Moslem Genesis and Christian Africanus who use the 2782bc July 20. So you are talking about 2770bc July 17 used by chronologists from 1290-280bc, and then 2782bc July 20 used by chronologists from 139-622 AD; and my chronologist named Moses is 1513bc. But i do use all calendars to prove Moses correct, rather than just think he is because he's a Bible. 126.96.36.199 (talk) 09:44, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Ancient Egyptian calendar and Coptic calendar were different!
Ancient Egyptian calendar and Coptic calendar were different! (but the names of the months were the same!)
- Ancient Egyptian month "Thot" = July 19 - August 17 (but this is Julian calendar!) = June 15 - July 15 (Gregorian calendar)
- Coptic month Thout = September 11 - October 10
- so they were different! (but this makes confusion! Today, most of the people think that the Ancient Egyptian calendar begins on September 11! In fact, it begins on June 15!) Böri (talk) 12:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)
- You are correct that the ancient Egyptian calendar is not the Coptic calendar, but your supporting dates are misleading at best. Although the ancient Egyptian calendar does not begin on September 11 Gregorian, it does begin on the first day (Thoth 1) of the Alexandrian calendar (called the Reformed calendar in the article), created by Roman Emperor Augustus in 25 BC when he added a leap day every four years to the ancient Egyptian calendar, which had no leap days. The Coptic Church formed in Alexandria, so it adopted the Alexandrian calendar as its own Coptic calendar. Julius Caesar began the Julian calendar a bit earlier in 45 BC. The Coptic/Alexandrian calendar begins on August 29 in the Julian calendar, except that it begins on August 30 when Thoth 1 is within the six month period between the Coptic/Alexandrian and Julian leap days. Only between 1900 and 2099 is August 29/30 Julian equal to September 11/12 Gregorian.
- Because the ancient Egyptian calendar does not have leap days while the Julian calendar does have leap days, it cannot begin on any fixed Julian date like July 19. Instead, the beginning of the ancient Egyptian calendar wanders through the seasons and the Julian calendar, taking 1460 years for Thoth 1 to return to the same Julian date. This cycle is called the Sothic cycle as explained in that article. Your July 19 is usually stated to be July 20, which was Thoth 1 in the four year period including AD 139, 1322 BC, and 2782 BC, but it was not July 20 in any other year. A century ago the Egyptian scholar Eduard Meyer extended the Sothic cycle one cycle further back to 4242 BC, but no modern Egyptian scholar supports that date. Indeed, many Egyptian scholars now state that no Sothic cycle ever existed. Only in 4242 BC is July 20 Julian equal June 15 Gregorian. In 2782 BC it is June 27 Gregorian, in 1322 BC it is July 8 Gregorian, and in 139 AD it is July 19 Gregorian.
- The next Coptic New Year (Tut 1) will be September 12, 2011 Gregorian (and August 30 Julian) because it is one day after the Coptic leap day (6 al-Nasi) and six months before the next Julian leap day on February 30, 2012. September 12, 2011 Gregorian is Tybi 25 in the ancient Eqyptian calendar, which has continued to wander since the Alexandrian/Coptic calendar diverged from it in 25 BC. Tybi 25 is about five months after Thoth 1 in the ancient Egyptian calendar because the last year that Thoth 1 was July 20 Julian was in AD 1599. — Joe Kress (talk) 19:01, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Studying calendars you will find religious mismatches. EXAMPLE the (Egyptian Greek) Alexandrian Era of 5500bc is a date for Adam using the Coptic calendar new year August 29. Though long chronologies started with a Flood in year 2256am, the prefs have become 2242am and 2262am for the Flood (Hippolytus 3258bc; Africanus 3238bc). But the EGYPTIAN COPTIC new year Aug 29 is taken from the Neo Babylon Flood year 2947bc (Thoth 1 = Aug 30) and Noah's grandson Arpaxad 2945bc (Thoth 1 = Aug 29) which is 2256am for a 5200bc Adam, not 5500bc. This 1460-year cycle hits the years 2947 to 1487 to 27bc, and 2945 to 1485 to 25bc, when the Coptic calendar was created by Octavian Augustus. This Coptic calendar was NOT created in 284 AD and yet August 29 is used by many as that Era too, which is when the book Josephus claims is 6000 of Adam from 5716bc (he uses 2256am to Flood 3460bc, but also 2656am to Flood 3060bc). The point is all these Eras are misusing a Thoth date that came from the year 2947bc as calculated in 747bc and is used by Caesar in 27bc after 720 years of 180 leap days.188.8.131.52 (talk) 09:54, 30 August 2012 (UTC)