Talk:El Dorado

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Mystery and legend no more[edit]

New findings dated January 2010--Reuter reports.. please follow up on new development and newer archaeological findings! New Eldorado city base and civilization found(only 10% spotted so far) with arial view near Bolivia and Brazil border, 60,0000 used to lived there from 200AD on until the Europeans exterminated them, see newer development: http://www.eso-garden.com/index.php?/weblog/C47/ AND http://www.the7thfire.com/Ancient_Cultures/The_Ancients.html . thanks Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.224.16 (talk) 03:16, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

You obviously did not read the research report http://antiquity.ac.uk/Ant/083/1084/ant0831084.pdf . The word El Dorado is not used anywhere in the text. So it's like spotting a new species of fish in the Atlantic and concluding that the Loch Ness Monster exists. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 08:50, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

In ancient time in that particular part of gold ridden South America, any sizeable city or civilization with such a huge population would be laden with gold, and I don't think such a statement is too far off from the truth- More people-more gold- a likely and conservative correlation.

No mention of that in the original research report either. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 17:03, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no doubt the articles are in search of El Dorado also, that's why they posted same gold sculpture as yours, as only 10% is uncovered it's too soon to negate that it's not the eldorado. There could also be many Eldorados- not just one- that is the point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.224.16 (talk) 20:35, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

El Dorado (meaning The golden or gilded one) is not a city. It is the name for an Muiscan chieftain who was initiated by covering him with gold dust and plunged into lake Guatavita. This is what the gold sculpture, you are refering to, means: a raft with the chieftain about to be immersed, accompanied by his attendants. The whole idea that El Dorado is a city, is incorrect.
But did you read the account Pre-Columbian geometric earthworks in the upper Purús: a complex society in western Amazonia by Martti Pärssinen, Denise Schaan & Alceu Ranzi? Search the document and you will not find any reference to gold or El Dorado. On the other hand, someone inserted that in the press release. Why? There are many sites that uncritically copied this faulty press release. Just use Google search and look for a line in the press release and you will find lots of sites claiming the discovery of El Dorado, all basing themselves on the research report that doesn't say that. My guess is, this is part of viral marketing, because a Hollywood movie with Brad Pitt about the explorer Percy Fawcett (also mentioned in the press release) is planned. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 13:16, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
That is partly correct, but in the Spaniards' mind, their goal was to get the hold on gold at all cost,they were willing to hunt down the chieftain(the one who covered himself with gold dust) so to strip his city state of its valuable like gold, and that was what the Spaniards did, had they find gold in their satisfaction is another matter but the wholesale destruction of the city state is true, wherever the Spaniard went to there were destruction and pillage, that's why you now find only the ruins but no one single living person, 60,000 was a lot of people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.60.224.16 (talk) 03:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)
El Dorado is NOT the name of a Muisca chieftan - that is, the name given him by his parents at birth - it is a term that sprang from the imaginations of fortune-seeking colonial Europeans. First it applied to a ritual of succession among the Muisca people, and later came to represent not just a golden man, but an entire city of gold (possibly once real, certainly mythical later). Still later, the myth of El Dorado, like Shangri La, came to be a metaphorical name for any putative place where great wealth might be made or found. It's senseless to argue over what the name originally meant; today it is all of those things, and someone looking up that term in our encyclopedia might be seeking information on any one of them. It's out job to be comprehensive and scholarly, and the article thus now covers all of the relevant aspects.Sbalfour (talk) 20:27, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

I THINK THAT IT IS VERY IMPORTANT TO MENTION IN THE ARTICLE THAT THE MUISCAN CIVILIZATION INHABITED PRESENT-DAY COLOMBIA. EVEN THE AIRPORT IN BOGOTA IS CALLED EL DORADO, THIS IS A MAJOR LEGEND IN THE NATION. So it is important to mention it in an encyclopedia. THANK YOU. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.223.33.36 (talk) 01:50, 26 March 2012 (UTC)

Please refrain from using all caps (shouting). I have added a missing information template to the article to cover your concern, as well as adding Colombia, South America to the opening sentence.Sbalfour (talk) 20:12, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

(Make legend primary topic)[edit]

I think this page should be El Dorado (disambiguation) and El Dorado should be the page for the El Dorado (myth).--Cuchullain 05:47, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

  • What Cuchullain meant (or would better have) four years ago was that
    El Dorado was a Dab page (in need of cleanup, BTW)
    while El Dorado (myth) covered what has now been recognized as the primary topic,
so that
El Dorado should thus have been renamed to El Dorado (disambiguation), and
(that being completed) El Dorado (myth) should have been renamed to El Dorado.
What actually occurred, 5 months later, was that User:El Torrito (in the third of their 5 months of editing) did cut&paste-moves
of the El Dorado Dab'g text to a history-less page El Dorado (disambiguation) and
of the El Dorado (myth) myth-topic text (with a different HatNote Dab) to the un-suffixed title,
and necessarily (probably innocently, but fairly effectively) hiding the real previous contributors to the myth article under a Rdr to the relocated article.
In both cases, this created the appearance (in the absence of special care) that both the then existing texts should be attributing solely to El Torrito.
Admins have the technical permissions needed in such situations to closely reconstruct edit histories with the accurate attributions; i will record the fact here, if i reach the point in that process that in practice requires the same admin finish the task, before someone else does.
--Jerzyt 06:35, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for pointing this out. Someone (me) has finally corrected this copyright violation by doing a history merge. It is astonishing to me that no admin who saw this in the last 3.5+ years felt the need to fix the problem. --ThaddeusB (talk)

Omoa as Eldorado ??[edit]

This Omoa stuff needs references,the connection to ElDorado is not clear as El Dorado legend developed in South America not Central America, as it has been explained in the introduction of this article.--tequendamia 06:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

This secction also equals Omoa in Honduras to Manoa in Guyana. I wonder if his author is aware of the geographical differences. If is not corrected by his/her author I'll remove the contradictory sentences.--tequendamia 01:43, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Is it Sibala or Eldorado?[edit]

legend says that a slave survivor out of a group of 4 named Estabon who saved the tribe's dieing chief.
As a reward the people of the tribe took him to their city. A city of gold. Later, Estabon returned to find Sibala but could'nt.
In the end no one would know if the city existed.or know its real name. User:Zach Baron —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.254.59.250 (talk) 06:39, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

What is chandenveer Tut ?[edit]

In the initial contrib of this section, the 01:21, 24 April 2008 forgery by 70.172.198.227 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been struck thru.--Jerzyt 06:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The phrase "chandenveer Tut" near the beginning of this article looks like gibberish to me. Does it actually mean anything?---this is the stupidest question ever
Psellus 17:44, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Move section: "El Dorado in popular culture" to El Dorado (disambiguation)[edit]

In the initial contrib of this section, the 01:21, 24 April 2008 forgery by 70.172.198.227 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been struck thru.--Jerzyt 06:54, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I think this section does not belong here.---well your are also stupid because it is amazing right where it is! The article El Dorado (disambiguation) is the right place. I'd like to move it there.--tequendamia 00:58, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

(Intro & diving)[edit]

The into says the chief would dive into the lake after being covered with gold. Yet the actual acount mentions no such thing, there needs to be some conection or explanation as to where the rest of the legend comes from (diving into the lake). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.234.195.62 (talk) 05:52, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Alexander von Humboldt disproved El Dorado?[edit]

It says that Alexander von Humboldt disproved the existance of El Dorado on the English maps marked by Sir Walter Raleigh. This does not appear anywhere on the article on Alexander von Humboldt. It also says See Parima-Tapirapecó. This article says nothing about Alexander von Humboldt disproving the existance of El Dorado on the maps either nor anything about the subject. --MicroX 01:44, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Aguirre, the Wrath of God[edit]

While the article mentions both Francisco Orellana and gives cultural uses of El Dorado as a metaphor, it does not acknowledge the film adaptation of the Francisco Orellana story by Werner Herzog. In Aguirre, the Wrath of God, Herzong follows him through his maddening journey (very much like Heart of Darkness) until he reaches the mouth of the Amazon with only a raft full of monkeys. I think it would be worth adding to this article as it is highly relevant.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aguirre_the_Wrath_of_God —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soupyx (talkcontribs) 04:01, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Akator[edit]

Is there an actual place called Akator that is connected with El Dorado, or is it a totally made-up name? 85.74.136.14 (talk) 08:38, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

  • who is oma
    — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.2.236.85 (talk) 23:13, 25 September 2008
    • The second IP's first, vandalistic edit 2 minutes earlier leaves it unclear whether "who is oma" would be better stated as
      What and where is the Omoa referred to in the section #Omoa as Eldorado ?? above on this page
    or should just be ignored as probable further vandalism.
    --Jerzyt 03:29, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Deception[edit]

I've heard it said before that the natives simply told the stories with a bit of embellishment in order to induce the invaders to leave them alone. "Ya, El Dorado is west, way west, just keep walking west and don't come back here because we do not have the gold." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zerothis (talkcontribs) 05:15, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

"Eldorado" spelling[edit]

Earlier this year an IP user (at an educational institution in Brittany) added

(" Eldorado ")

in apposition to the subject of the lead sent. This spelling is common in place names and product names, and consequently has appeared in Dabs and in a temporary (and of course unacceptable) Dab/article hybrid, but does not seem to have previously been proposed for the article on the legend. Google gives

174 for "El dorado" "golden one" "South America" -wikipedia.

vs.

162 for "Eldorado" "golden one" "South America" -wikipedia.

and

138 for "Eldorado" "golden one" "South America" -wikipedia -cadillac

Of those 138, the first ten break down as involving (hits in more than one group still only counted once):

in 6, use of both spellings
in one each of the remainder,
"Eldorado" as name of a business
Eldorado, the work by Poe
Eldorado, a high school in Albuquerque
Eldorado Canyon State Park in Colorado (with "Golden one" BTW referring to the CO city and a distance from it)

The alternate spelling, as applied to the legend, is at best too rare for mention in the lead section.
--Jerzyt 04:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Orellana's relation to Pizarro[edit]

Francisco de Orellana's relation to Francisco Pizarro is disputed,therefore making his relation to Gonzalo Pizarro unknown. Many historians believe Orellana and Francisco Pizarro are cousins, not father and son. The likelihood of Orellana to be Gonzalo's nephew, as stated in the article, is very low.--Morell4 (talk) 16:53, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I note that the article as of 2/23/14 still says "nephew" and "uncle"; their relation is indeed disputed in the literature. The overarching concern is that their relationship contributes nothing to this article, and we need not and should not enter into the dispute here; rather that should be taken up in the article on the discovery of the Amazon, or the biography of Orellana and/or Pizarro. It's quite accurate and sufficient for our purposes to simply say that Orellana accompanied Pizarro as his lieutenant. Changing the textg accoerdingly.Sbalfour (talk) 20:07, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

It's was a LIE[edit]

Why don't you people accept that the Incas made fools of the conquistadores by telling them to go on a "wild goose chase" throught the Amazonia simply to get rid(temporary) of the greedy conquistadores, El Dorado WAS and IS a mythical place invented by the Incas. To put it simple: NOBODY will ever find that place because it never existed, unless you are talking about ELO's album... This article need to be wikified correctly towards the historical truth... --201.247.28.2 (talk) 03:06, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

See Also, Mythical places -> link farm[edit]

I'm merged the section into List of mythological places,and added the wikilink to it in See also section.Sbalfour (talk) 02:57, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

Disproof?[edit]

"...its [Lake Parime's] existence was disproved by Alexander von Humboldt during his Latin-America expedition". He didn't find it just like everyone else (no surprise). How does that constitute *disproof* of its existance? At law, we have this neat expression: "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." "proof" is an absolute - it precludes showing the existance of the lake ever, yesterday, today, or in the future. The statement is expecially dubious since it appears from recent geologic studies that a large inland lake or sea once occupied the appropriate area, and evaporated or drained hundreds of years ago. Whatever is left of it may be due to seasonal flooding of the waterways. In any case, such a profound statement can't be held in place without scrupulous scholarship. It needs detailing on exactly what Humboldt did, and how he arrived at the conclusion, an absolute statement that the lake couldn't exist.Sbalfour (talk) 20:29, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Juan Rodriguez Troxell, fictitious?[edit]

Appears to be a fictitious person - with a name like that, the original account must surely have been in Spanish, but I can find no Spanish original associated with his name. I can't find his name in any other context, either. Maybe that's really all he was ever known for, but it's very suspicious. He was a friend of an important person, and no mention elsewhere by that person of him? And I can find no reference to an historical document corresponding to the letter. I'd like to read the full text of the letter, in Spanish.

I suspect, that the name of the author was made up, and his supposed description of the Muisca ritual transcribed from some other writing, possibly one in the Chbcha language of the Muisca. Since there is no citation associated with the description of the ritual, and I can find no scholarship to verify it, I'm going to strike it from the article.Sbalfour (talk) 22:28, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

It's notable that in the Spanish wikipedia article which has comprehensive coverage of the topic and is scrupulously footnoted, there is no mention of this name, or of his supposed letter.Sbalfour (talk) 22:47, 25 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree. It's easy to find the work of Juan Rodriguez Freyle, but not of Juan Rodriguez Troxell. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 23:32, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
It seems it is the result of vandalism by 65.24.147.249. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 23:46, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
Consensus, therefore. I'm striking the name Juan Rodriguez Troxell, and text of his supposed letter.Sbalfour (talk) 03:39, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I think you are looking for this text. Jan Arkesteijn (talk) 09:08, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
Wow! Thank you very much, since I don't actually have the book, either in Spanish or English. I'm relatively good at reading in translation, and maybe the original Spanish should be included in a footnote in the article, to forestall claims that the editor's (er... my) Spanish scholarship is imprecise.Sbalfour (talk) 17:19, 26 February 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism and reversion history of article[edit]

This article has been the target of extensive vandalism (and reversion by responsible editors). I've reverted a couple pieces of vandalism in it myself. Unless I check every little detail, I have no idea what's valid and what's not. I'm going to request some kind of edit protection for the page, after I correlate the kinds of vandalism and kinds of editors making it.Sbalfour (talk) 04:58, 26 February 2014 (UTC)