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- 1 Left & Right?
- 2 Pfalz
- 3 Requested move
- 4 Map
- 5 Proposed merger with Rhineland-Palatinate
- 6 Henry III?
- 7 Partial move
- 8 Requested move (2)
- 9 the incredible shifting name
- 10 Literal translation
- 11 Electoral Palatinate (old title) or Electorate of the Palatinate (new title)?
Left & Right?
The text says "on the left side of the Rhine" but this could be either side of the Rhine, depending on whether I'm observing from the north or south. Assuming that the "left and right" referred to positions on the map, I've taken the step of changing "left and right" to "west and east". ("Left" has been assumed to mean "west", with "right" meaning "east").
- The hydrographic right side of the river is the one to your right facing downstream. That's a rather commonly used definition, see for instance Left Bank, Right Bank. Markussep 20:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't the information here on the Palatinate state be found at Rhenish Palatinate instead of this article? It seems to me that the "Palatinate" article should just define the term and list the locations of different palatinates. Olessi 21:13, 17 September 2005 (UTC)
I think you're right. There are many things (regions, historic regions, buildings, people) with "Pfalz" or "Palatinate" in their name, and this article should give directions to the various specific articles, like de:Pfalz. And probably a short description of where the term "pfalz/palatinate" comes from. Some of the articles this page should link to:
- Rhenish Palatinate, the present Pfalz region in Rhineland-Palatinate, de:Pfalz (Region). Since the area isn't called "Rheinpfalz" in Germany anymore, this page should be moved to Palatinate (region).
- Rhineland-Palatinate, the present German state, de:Rheinland-Pfalz
- Upper Palatinate, the present region in Bavaria, de:Oberpfalz
- Electoral Palatinate, the historic German duchy, de:Kurpfalz. This could also contain the history of the County Palatine of Lotharingia and the County Palatine of the Rhine. Since most of the links to Palatinate are related to the "Kurpfalz", maybe the article about the Kurpfalz should be at Palatinate, with links to the other uses at Palatinate (disambiguation).
- The former duchies Palatinate-Zweibrücken (de:Pfalz-Zweibrücken), Palatinate-Neuburg (de:Herzogtum Pfalz-Neuburg), Palatinate-Sulzbach (de:Pfalz-Sulzbach) etc.
- The present German districts Saarpfalz, Südwestpfalz, Rhein-Pfalz-Kreis
- The Pfalzgrafenstein castle in Kaub.
- County palatine, England.
- Several older Palatinates in Bavaria, Burgundy, Saxony and Swabia, see de:Pfalzgraf.
Markussep 18:55, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
Followup about disambiguation
(I am not modifying an archived discussion, but I am adding a postscript.) Greetings from WikiProject Disambiguation. We just started a new round over at Disambiguation pages with links and one of the most linkiferous disambiguation pages was [[Palatinate]]. I started into it, and I have already fixed over 200 links (including a few I directed to [[county palatine]], then realized my error and changed to [[count palatine]]). Along the way I changed a few links [[Palatinate (disambiguation)]]. Markussep noticed this, and was worried that I was starting to undo the page move. I'm not, but I appreciate the concern. The link to [[Palatinate (disambiguation)]] is a note to disambiguators saying this link is not in need of disambiguation (see Category:Redirects to disambiguation pages).
That brings me the point of this message. There are 18 links to [[Palatinate (disambiguation)]] not in need of disambiguation, but there are over a hundred links to [[Pfalz]] and [[Palatinate]] still in need of repair. I was well on my way to fixing this, but now I'm stopping. It says at Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Links_to_disambiguated_topics, A code of honor for creating disambiguation pages is to fix all resulting mis-directed links. Technically that means GTBacchus is supposed to fix these links, but since there was a discussion, I am laying the responsibility on all of you who supported the move. I already did most of them; please fix the remaining links. I'll be back in a few days to see how you're doing. Note: [[Count Palatine of Lotharingia]] is a redirect here, and can be used if it bugs you to link anachronous references like Herman I (count palatine) directly to Electoral Palatinate.
BTW, I support the move. Germans distinguish Pfalz from Kurpfalz, but in English we use Palatinate for both and for other things. — Randall Bart 19:10, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
- I find it disturbing that you've decided that the German people don't know the names of their own towns, and see fit to rename cities to things that will never, nor have ever been on maps, such as the fictional city of Palatine-Zweibrucken. Just because a word CAN be translated, does not mean it SHOULD be. If a town has a name, you should be leaving it alone, or completely translate it. I'm sure all germans know where Two Bridges Palatine is. ThuranX 00:42, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
- Zweibrücken is a city. Palatinate-Zweibrücken, or de:Pfalz-Zweibrücken, was a principality of the Holy Roman Empire which included other territory in addition to Zweibrücken and bordered, among others, the County of Sponheim, the Electoral Palatinate, the County of Nassau-Saarbrücken, the County of Hanau-Lichtenberg, and the Archbishopric of Trier. Olessi 01:08, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
I got impatient and fixed the rest of them. I wish I could convince peopel that they can't leave ambiguous links for the disambiguation faeries to fix, but we keep fixing them. — Randall Bart 00:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I think a map is needed, as Rheinland-Pfalz is the union of two historically different lands. I like the maps the on de:Pfalz (Region), I do not know how to import them to the English wiki or translate them properly though.
--Jadger 19:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
- But here we are not talking about Rheinland-Pfalz. Here we are talking about the Kurpfalz. Rheinland-Pfalz does not include the territories East of the Rhine. imars 07:09, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
- And also includes territories on both sides of the Rhine that were not part of the Palatinate, notably the left bank territories of the former Archbishoprics of Trier and Mainz. john k 19:02, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Map: link "download Gesamtdarstellung" on the right side 184.108.40.206 09:05, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- I get a file not found with that link.imars 12:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
- This is the correct link: http://www.fpi.uni-hd.de/galerie/kurpfalzkarte/Index.htm. Markussep 17:34, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Proposed merger with Rhineland-Palatinate
This article needs to be merged with the article of Rhineland-Palatinate, as both articles are referring to one and the same subject: Rhenish Palatinate, Rhineland-Palatinate, or Electoral Palatinate, in German called Rheinland Pfalz or die Rheinische Pfalz, originally the Kurpfalz (Kur is archaic German for election as a noun, or electoral if used as an adjective). If there are slight deviations in the case of absorption of territory or towns, that may be brought to attention in the article Rhineland-Palatinate. To maintain the two separate articles as at present is totally misleading and wrong. Dieter Simon 23:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
- Rheinland-Pfalz (Rheinland-Palatinate) is a state in the modern German state. It is a creation of the It exists west of the Rhine. The former state of the Holy Roman Empire, Kurpfalz (Electoral Palatinate) was on both sides of the Rhine centered on Heidelberg. It ceased to exist during the Napoleanic wars. They are separated by space as well as time. Do not merge the arcticles. imars 07:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
- I agree with Imars. The Kurpfalz had a very different territory from the present Rheinland-Pfalz, and it also differs significantly from the Bavarian Rheinpfalz (1815-1945). All three deserve separate articles. Markussep 08:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I've moved the list of rulers to a new article, List of Counts Palatine of the Rhine. This article was anomalous in combining an article about the territory with a list of rulers article. RandomCritic (talk) 15:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)
Requested move (2)
the incredible shifting name
- Yes, and sometimes it is done under a named account (e.g., see edits between 17 May and 26 May 20012 here) and sometimes single-use IPs are created to do this, in defiance of the !vote documented in the section of the talk page preceding this one. It suggests a failure to understand that whereas in German Pfalz is both a noun and an adjective, that is not true in English -- so German practice cannot be transliterated to English Wikipedia. Cognates of "Palatine" have their own rules in English, depending upon what entity is being referred to or described. In English, "Palatinate" designates both a current region and a past electorate of Germany, unlike "Bavaria" (Bayern) which refers only to the present region unless it is specified that one is speaking of the duchy, electorate or kingdom. Usually the historical realm is simply referred to as "the Palatinate", but also sometimes as "the Electoral Palatinate" or "the Rhenish Palatinate" -- as long as "Palatinate" is included they refer to roughly the same historical place and realm. "Electorate of the Palatinate" is therefore redundant. The adjectival form "Palatine" is usually suffixed to the title "Elector" when referring to that realm, but is also used adjectively to name any of the territories once ruled by the branch of the Wittelsbach dynasty to which the Electors Palatine belonged, i.e. "Count Palatine of Zweibrucken" not, e.g., "Count of Palatinate-Zweibrucken", which is largely an English Wikipedia invention. Either a proper move should be proposed and !voted on to use "Electorate of the Palatinate" (and to use such forms as Palatinate-Sulzbach, Palatinate-Neuburg, Palatinate-Zweibrucken, etc.), or we go back to using standard English: "Palatinate" refers to the Electorate (in which case "Electorate of the Palatinate" is redundant and awkward-sounding, while "Electoral Palatinate" is less so) and using "Palatine" adjectively for all other titular and territorial references, i.e., "County Palatine", "Count Palatine of the Rhine", "Count Palatine of Zweibrucken", "Count Palatine of Sulzbach", etc. FactStraight (talk) 02:18, 4 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't know whether it should be noted that the literal translation of the county's name is the (also on German) awkward "County Palatinate near Rhine." ("bei Rhein", grammatically correct it would be "bei dem Rhein(e)" or "beim Rhein", while Standard German wound be "an dem Rhein" or "am Rhein" (near the Rhine). "Of the Rhine", would, of course, be "des Rheins".) I wonder how that strange German construction came to be, which ich usually only used with town names ("bei Hamburg"). -- megA (talk) 06:38, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
- Might be a Plattdeutsch or 17th/18th century idiom that has changed with the passage of time. A lot of Palatine German tombstones in the Northeastern US have idioms or various constructions from that time that are strange, or not in use today.--ColonelHenry (talk) 17:16, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
Electoral Palatinate (old title) or Electorate of the Palatinate (new title)?
This is a controversial move that was disputed before (vide supra). And this move now effects several other articles that mention/address the subject. This should have been a matter for the talk page or WP:RM before any action. Today (13MAY2013 at 17:13) User:Hansmccx moved it to Electorate of the Palatinate using as a justification WP:TITLES which tells me nothing. From my view of sources, WP:COMMONNAME would be "Electoral Palatinate" just based on the number of mentions in books. With my interest in German history, I can attest that the sources don't often say "Electorate of the Palatinate" which is a cumbersome and inaccurate translation of the original German name Kurpfalz (heck, EotP isn't even mentioned in the lede of the article--not a promising sign). I've asked at Wikipedia talk:Requested moves for assistance also, perhaps even a third opinion, and asked Hansmccx for some insight on his move reasons.--ColonelHenry (talk) 16:42, 13 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it looks like the vandal of yore (see section above) is back, using the User:Hansmccx account that had been dormant since July 2012 until today. He fixates on certain words, e.g. alternately shifting versions of "Electoral" to "Electorate" and vice versa (despite repeated objections by Omnipaedista and me) deleting the word "decisive" from articles about battles, etc. -- apparently a personal mania or obsession of some kind. Several socks and IPs were used to substitute these words in many articles, you can also see that they closely track edits and article moves by -Ilhador-, who's been blocked for this sort of thing before. The moves need to be reversed and the vandalism reported. FactStraight (talk) 07:40, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
- Hansmccx and Moagim are -Ilhador-'s latest socks. He keeps making controversial moves and removing content without reason. Alternatively he gives an irrelevant/deceiving reason like "per WP:TITLES" or "per MOS." Here you can find a list of -Ilhador-'s socks. --Omnipaedista (talk) 08:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)