Talk:Emperor of China
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- 1 rewrite
- 2 vandalism
- 3 Reason for the NPOV tag
- 4 Emperor and Son of Heaven
- 5 Flag
- 6 Flag in the infobox
- 7 About "Zong" 宗
- 8 the flag
- 9 "China"?
- 10 Date of the end of the monarchy in infobox
- 11 Suggesting Division of different kinds of China
- 12 Who is the actual emperor now
- 13 The photo is of the Emperor of Machukuo, not of China.
- 14 The Question of the Existence of the Emperor of China
- 15 File:Arms of the Qing Dynasty.svg is a hoax, do not use it
- 16 Highly dubious gloss on huangdi
This article has been vandalised by someone! 126.96.36.199 22:08, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
Reason for the NPOV tag
The reason I put in the NPOV tag is that it subscribes to the sinification POV (i.e. sometimes the emperor started off as a barbarian but ended up adopting the great Chinese culture). While this is a historically valid narrative, it is not the only one, and a lot of recent historical scholarship in the Yuan and Qing dynasty have pointed out how these rulers simulatenously combined both Chinese theories of rulership with Central Asia ones.
Roadrunner 03:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Emperor and Son of Heaven
Just keep in mind, Emperor(皇帝) and Son of Heaven(天子) is two different things. As for emperor, he is ruler of certain nation. For example, Emperor Guo of Han was the ruler of the nation which was named HAN (ruling 15 counties at early Han dynasty). Emperor is nothing to do with other kings. However, for the son of heaven, he is the ruler of the world, all kings are under his rule. 188.8.131.52 08:54, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
The term "Emperor" is different from the term "Son of Heaven". The term "Emperor" is a term used in the Western world and it refers to: (1) a male sovereign or supreme ruler of an empire. (2) a monarch who rules or reigns over an empire. Whereas the term "Son of Heaven" is a Chinese or Jo Dynasty term. For further information see http://zhoudynasty.freewebsites.com. In this publication, you will see that the Jo Dynasty kings were of Hebrew descent and they referred to themselves as being "sons of Heaven". In ancient times, Nimrod took away written language from his people (the migration eastward out of Eden called the River of Hiddekel). The Jo clan, though, being non-Hamites kept their language and writing system, as well as a record of their history in written form and by written genealogy records. "Son of Heaven" is a Hebrew concept, which migrated eastward into Asia via the Jo Dynasty.
The current "Empire of China" flag in the infobox is clearly inappropriate; it is neither the flag used by the short-lived Empire of China of Yuan Shikai, nor would that flag be proper for this article. There shouldn't be a flag at all for a title that encompasses such a long history. I'd remove the flag myself but I don't know how to edit infobox without leaving some ugly code. Hopefully someone will do it soon. o (talk) 11:15, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Flag in the infobox
The use of Image:Flag of the Republic of China 1912-1928.svg in this article is inappropriate. For one thing, it was only used by the Republic of China. The flag of Yuan Shikai's Empire of China (1915–1916) was actually Image:YuanFlag1.svg. Similar to be sure, but different.
But more importantly, using Yuan Shikai's flag just because he was the last emperor chronologically is somewhat misleading. When people think of Imperial China or of the Chinese Emperor, they think of the period before the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1912. Yuan Shikai may have technically been emperor, but he didn't succeed in re-establishing the old Empire in any way. He reigned for three months, and while that reign had implications for the history of the Republic, it didn't really have bearing on Imperial China.
I mean, look at the first sentence of this page. "The Emperor of China (Chinese: 皇帝; pinyin: Huángdì) refers to any sovereign of Imperial China reigning since the founding of the Qin Dynasty in 221 BC until the fall of the Qing Dynasty in 1912." Or look at the History of China template, which defines the Imperial era as lasting from 221 BC to 1911. The only flag that's appropriate for that time period is Image:China Qing Dynasty Flag 1889.svg. I'm reverting the page back to my version, and if anyone has objections to that, I would ask them to voice them here before reverting again. Orange Tuesday (talk)
About "Zong" 宗
- The Empire of China existed for around three months and isn't even mentioned in the text of the article. It was an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to re-establish the monarchy that never enjoyed any stability or widespread support. This article is about the Emperors of China during the period before 1912, so the Qing flag should be used. Using the Empire of China flag is misleading.
- Anyway, who says we have to use the last flag chronologically? Why not go by the flag that was used for the longest period of time? Orange Tuesday (talk) 02:32, 18 August 2008 (UTC)put in english
This article creates the erroneous impression that there has been a single state called "China" for thousands of years. HOw about deleted the unnecessary references to "China", to take into consideration the feelings of the numerous non-Han peoples of East Asia. Dazibao (talk) 06:00, 26 May 2009 (UTC)
- Most wikipedia users believe that China is one thing, therefore they will put it this way in every article. Maybe you can discuss this at higher burocracy levels of the English-wikipedia by bringing sources of course.--184.108.40.206 (talk) 06:54, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
- There was no single state called "Korea" for thousands of years. However, the earlier states in Korean Peninsula were culturally Korean; even though they were not officially called "Korea" but they had Korean identity, and belong to Korean history. --220.127.116.11 (talk) 18:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
- More to the point, this is quite silly. There has been a single polity called Zhongguo for thousands of years and its English name is China. That it has changed over time goes without saying; that it has existed likewise. — LlywelynII 08:53, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
Date of the end of the monarchy in infobox
The "Monarchy ended" date in the infobox is March 22, 1916 CE, which is the end date of the short-lived Empire of China (1915–1916) of Yuan Shikai. IMO, as in the discussion above, the date should be changed to the end date of the Qing dynasty, February 12, 1912 CE. --Joshua Say "hi" to me!What I've done? 12:52, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
Suggesting Division of different kinds of China
I suggest to separate the Manchu "Qing Dynasty" from the rest of Chinese Empire Series. This foreign ruling class was quite different from other periods of Chinese Monarchy, different language, different worship, different hereditary laws, different code of etiquette, different rites and protocol, etc.. Enough to make a new entry for the "Qing Monarchy". It is no good having to specifically make a note for the Qings in each of the sub-entries of China.
I am not trying to suggest a new page for every people that had ruled the land of China though, so may the Chinese fervents please stop attacking me with charges of dividing the Great China. Most of other ruling dynasties had the same code of etiquette, the same doctrine and the same worship system, and I think that's ok to be put together.
- You have over-exaggerated the differences among different dynasties or "different kinds of China". The similarities are always much more significant than the differences among the dynasties, including the Qing Dynasty you mentioned. --18.104.22.168 (talk) 18:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Who is the actual emperor now
- Puyi has no direct descendants. There are descendants of the House of Aisin Gioro living today through other members of his family, although none are known to be publicly claiming to be royalty or emperor today. Some have even changed their surname to the Han-sinicized form of "Jīn" (金) from the Manchu clan name of "Aisin" (both mean "gold" in the respective languages), most likely to downplay their family's past heritage and live as regular Chinese citizens. 22.214.171.124 (talk) 09:45, 30 January 2011 (UTC)
WHO IS THE ACTUAL EMPEROR NOW? It must be remembered that the Ch'ing Dynasty (Qing Dynasty) is a foreign dynasty and not a Chinese dynasty. China for thousands of years has always been ruled by Han-Chinese people. The whole of China has only been conquered twice. Once by Mongolians and a second time by Manchurians. The Japanese almost conquered China during World War II; yet if it had conquered China, Emperor Aikihito would not be recognized as the Han-Chinese Emperor today! Just as Emperor Aikihito is Japanese. Henry P'u Yee Aisin-Gioro (ai-sin-gio-ro) is Manchurian and not Chinese. Japan, China, Korea, Manchuria, and Mongolia are five separate nations!
Hengzhen (Chinese: 恒镇; pinyin: Héngzhèn) of the Aisin Gioro clan, also spelled Heng Chen, Heng-shen and also known as Yüan Yüan (born 1944) is the son of Yuyan, descendant of the Dàoguāng Emperor. He worked as film projectionist with the Crop Production Unit of the People's Liberation Army in Shíhézǐ. He has been the head of the Aisin-Gioro clan and not China's emperor.
By Chinese custom, when a dynasty ends the emperor's lineage ends and the succeeding descendant becomes a prince rather than an emperor.
The photo is of the Emperor of Machukuo, not of China.
Could we possibly edit the photo to something more appropriate? The attire Puyi, as Emperor of Manchukuo is wearing is clearly not Chinese, and was not ever worn by any Emperor of China. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 10:18, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
The Question of the Existence of the Emperor of China
Is there such a person as the Emperor of China today? Does China have a monarch in or out of power? If my family's history is connected to China's history, am I now China's official succession emperor and head of state in exile? From 1368 to 1644 the Chun family from the Ming Dynasty governed all of China. In 1644 Manchurians conquered China and China's Imperial court (Jo clan) went underground into hiding and continued their succession and mandate. So, by history, this succession is legal and legitimate. http://himyaosui.wordpress.com. Does China, therefore, have an emperor today and how many nations in this world have emperors and kings? It, also, must be remembered that Manchurians are not of the Han-Chinese race of people and therefore can not be said to be Chinese! Errors in Wikipedia and in history should be corrected.
Additionally, by whose authority do articles on China's history and articles on things Chinese appears here? Who decides who gets published and who gets deleted? By whose authority are such things done and are such people authority figures knowledgeable about China's history and Imperial system?
I am a credible authority source. There is no one better than I am on China, China's history, and China's imperial family genealogy in or out of China.
- You have a serious conflict of interest problem, see WP:COI. Even if you did not, unless you have published in what we call reliable sources, see WP:RS to understand what that means, your knowledge is what we call original research, see WP:NOR. You need to read Wikipedia:Verifiability as well. Meanwhile, please don't talk pages to make claims about your position. Dougweller (talk) 04:14, 16 April 2011 (UTC)
- Your family lost the Mandate of Heaven centuries ago. Regain control of all China, and then we can talk about recognising you as Emperor. Wardog (talk) 08:44, 4 September 2011 (UTC)
File:Arms of the Qing Dynasty.svg is a hoax, do not use it
Per the file description on Commons, this coat of arms image is a fictitious hoax. It is a misattributed coat of arms used only in one source (a Russian book), and there are no official Qing records that even mention a "coat of arms". Please, do not use this image. -- | —Talk contribs email 03:46, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
Highly dubious gloss on huangdi
The current article seems quite well-written. At the same time, it needs rewriting to explain (a) that it is advancing a particular POV and (b) what some of the other ones are. Between the two terms, if anything, 帝 is the one that advances a "holy" narrative and makes out the possessor as a living god: Shangdi (or Di for short) was a henotheistic sky god intimately connected with Shang kingship.
The idea that 黄 is the religious term and 帝 was secular is (on its face) highly specious and needs to have the scholarship behind the claim explained very clearly. — LlywelynII 08:59, 27 October 2012 (UTC)
- Almost the whole entirely unsourced and very dubious essay that comprises the 'Origin and history' section was added by an IP in March 2011. Why the changes weren't reverted at the time I don't know, but I would be in favour of completely removing the unsourced 'Origin and history' section, as it is better to have nothing on the topic than what we have at the moment. BabelStone (talk) 09:54, 27 October 2012 (UTC)