Talk:Employment

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Need some balance[edit]

This article appears to written from a far too capitalistic paradigm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.171.25.34 (talk) 22:49, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll say, the lede reads like it was written by a Chamber of Commerce. It presents a totally In-Universe capitalist perspective as if nothing else existed. See also the contracts thread below. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 16:03, 21 April 2010 (UTC)


I agree I just read the article and found the intro "Employment is a contract between two parties, one being the employer and the other being the employee. Employment opportunity comes directly from investment (including foreign direct investment and investment bank) to gain excessive profit in a Business plan in the capitalist economy." to be very biased and not NPV. There are or have been systems other than capitalism that have created jobs. In addition to which no investment or business plan is necessary for a job to be created. For example a porter does not need an investment to create their own job. Nor do they need a business plan. They simply need to wait around at a place where people are likely to need something to be carried. I don't have the knowledge to rewrite the article well, but I think it is in dire need of a more NPV rewrite. Jtan163 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:20, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Contracts[edit]

In the United States, the standard employment relationship is not a contract and is considered to be at-will meaning that the employer and employee are both free to terminate the employment at any time and for any cause, or for no cause at all.

What's the situation in other countries? Does one get sued or jailed for quitting a job as a stock boy in Mexico City, London, or Bangladesh? If the situation is different elsewhere, it should be explained. If not, the "in the United States" statement should be removed. I'm pretty sure that throughout the free world, the typical laborer can leave employment at will. There are exceptions, of course, but that's why the word "standard" is there. Kafziel Talk 19:52, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Is it really a contract, classical contract theory requires freedom to contract, and equal power position of contracting parties. Doe a person without sufficent money have a real choice about the terms of the contract they enter into????JUBALCAIN 06:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes. The theory is that the worker possesses something of value and that it could be "sold" somewhere else if need-be. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 15:12, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Whatever the common law or commercial code situation, in the United States at least, so-called "full time" or "direct" employment is the anti-thesis of a contract. The employee is absolutely not a contractor and this is the subject matter of the well known 20 questions. The current Lede text is yet another example of a provincial American assumption of the universality of capitalist relations and is diametrically the opposite of the situation in the USA and this should be made clear as in fact it's more or less universally the case. Lycurgus (talk) 16:10, 21 April 2010 (UTC)
Noting that there were originally and famously twenty questions, but they seem to have been boiled down to 3. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 10:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)
See also my comments on Lede Rewrite at Wage labour. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 23:39, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Depends what you call the free world. In Australia, New Zealand and the EU most employment is not "at will". There are statutory protections for employees and employers, extensive proections against arbitary dismissal by employers, although these protections have been weakened over teh past 20 years or so.
In what I think of as the "free world" the US's "at will" agreements are the exception not the rule.
If you include countires such as Malaysia, Taiwan, India which are technically democracies or republis (but not all that free in reality) then you get "At will" contracts being more the norm. 14.2.18.245 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:22, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Bias?[edit]

"Capitalism allows the marketplace to determine the value of a good or service based on demand, rather than impose a value on a good or service. In a communist environment, the state determines the value a job may have, and may also open or close avenues to those jobs, creating less of a sense of freedom as to who may occupy those jobs.

Socio-psychological concepts of freedom, self-actualization, motivation and aspiration are thus tested in a society where a person is not taught the value of contributing to enterprise. The capitalist system suggests that success is unlimited or directly proportional to how much an individual wants to work at it, while opponents of communism suggest that imposing value takes away the motivation for someone to be better at their job than the next guy who isn't working as hard but the value in what they do is fixed regardless of performance."

This feels like a non-objective viewpoint to me, but I'm not sure... 70.49.75.217 (talk) 22:44, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Merge from Job (role)[edit]

Presently Job (role) is also a start-class article, but it is listed as one of the wp:Vital 100. It seems both cover the same territory rather poorly. I propose a merger, intending that it would focus effort in one place, and in any case it would simplify a messy disambiguation. LeadSongDog come howl! 18:00, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree; merge makes sense.--KarlB (talk) 19:22, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Same here. (Either that or move Job (role) to Job per WP:PRIME.) benzband (talk) 19:28, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

I favor keeping the articles separate, because the concepts are distinct in an important way, as explained in the introductions to the two articles. Employment is a contract, while job is a social role. The job (role) article, though short, concentrates non-contractual aspects of work, for example self-employment, and on the significance of a job for a person's social status (e.g. getting a first job) and life goals (e.g. "day job"). I like Benzband's suggestion to move the present content of Job (role) to Job, thereby making it a WP:PRIMARY_TOPIC article, with a hatnote to a disambiguation page containing the present content of Job. CharlesHBennett (talk) 19:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose merger: The two are distinctly different, it would be better to develop the "job" article further, instead of merging. --Funandtrvl (talk) 19:58, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Additional reference(s)[edit]

http://www.beyondchron.org/news/index.php?itemid=11687

" . . . By the mid-1990s, Los Angeles had become the nation’s capital of low-wage labor and remains so to this day: Twenty-eight percent of full-time workers in L.A. County make less than $25,000 a year. In Chicago, only 19 percent of workers earn so little. . . "

I think this has some interesting material. Now, this article does seem to have a viewpoint, but I don't think we should exclude it for that reason. FriendlyRiverOtter (talk) 18:26, 15 August 2013 (UTC)

Added Info[edit]

Dear Editor,

I've been working on a page gearing specifically to employment and disabilities, I think I have some information to expand on the employment relations section, specifically on the topic of socialization. Link to page employment (disabilities). Since a page on topic already exist, the page I had created breaks on the laws of disambiguation. Trying to find a home for good researched information. Any suggestions on what to do with information, comment on the page's talk page. Thanks.

--KierraA. (talk) 03:36, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

U.S. Federal income tax withholding[edit]

There seems to be a considerable degree of synthesis in this newly expanded section: it reads like an attempt to build a case rather than to neutrally report previously published commentary: Noyster (talk), 11:20, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

I deleted the offending material. This material is not only prohibited original research, it's incorrect research. It is part of a tax evasion scam in the United States called "Cracking the Code," involving a promoter who is a convicted felon who has served two terms in federal prison for tax-related crimes (the latter prison term for using this particular scam on his own tax returns). At least six other individuals have been sent to federal prison in relation to the scam (four of whom are in custody at this time). The wife of the promoter of the scam is awaiting sentencing as well. I've been studying these scams for over 15 years -- and this one in particular for over seven years. Famspear (talk) 01:37, 22 December 2014 (UTC)
PS: The essential basis for the scam is the false argument that under the U.S. federal income tax laws, "income" means only amounts received in an activity connected to the exercise of a "federal privilege." There is absolutely nothing in the U.S. Constitution or any tax statute that says any such thing. Every single federal court that has decided the issue has rejected it -- sometimes by specifically mentioning the name of the scam itself, or the name of its promoter, or both. Famspear (talk) 02:05, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Employed[edit]

Currently Employed redirects to Employment: [1] However, the term "employed" has an independent content (at least as used by major international organisations like the International Labour Organisation, OECD, European Union) and hence deserves a separate article. According to the ILO, the "employed" comprise of all persons above a specified age who during a specified brief period were either in paid employment or were in self-employment. The latter includes employers, own account workers, members of a family farm, persons who performed some work for profit or family gain.[1] Note that the group of self-employed as a rule, are not in an employer-employee contractual relationship. The current article on Employment makes occasional reference to the term "employed", but effectively uses terms "employed", "employee" and "worker" as synonyms. On the other hand, the ILO, OECD and Eurostat use the term "employed" in a broader sense, including self-employed.

In this context I'd like to point out also a more general and broader issue. Several Wikipedia articles, including Employment and Self-employment are based on implicit assumption that the content and use of these terms is primarily defined by English-speaking countries (USA, UK, Australia, Canada, India etc). It is still largely ignored that there are several international bodies, like the UN, ILO, OECD, Council of Europe, European Union etc. which have English as one of their official languages and which heavily use these terms in international comparative context and also as concepts in international law. For international readers these aspects are no less interesting and relevant than any country-specific examples. I shall encourage contributors to add those international aspects.--VillaK (talk) 17:25, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Interwiki links[edit]

The interwiki links of this article are problematic. Some, like the French "Emploi" address employment in a broader sense, covering various forms of employment, addressing the legal, statistical and macroeconomic ascpects. Others, like the Russian "Трудовые_отношения" (Work relationship) and Italian "Rapporto di lavoro" address only the legal aspects of worker-employer relationship. Note that in Russian Wikipedia there is also an article "Занятость", which address the economic aspect of employment. The Slovenian link to "Delodajalec" (Employer) is incorrect as it deals with the employer only.--VillaK (talk) 17:54, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Protection?[edit]

This article seems to be offer for frequent vandalism/POV-Pushing. Would it be a good idea to ask for semi-protection of this article? --Snabbkaffe (talk) 01:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

  1. ^ Resolution concerning statistics of the economically active population, employment, unemployment and underemployment, adopted by the 13th International Conference of Labour Statisticians (October 1982)