Talk:English languages

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this is rather confusing...

Gringo300 21:39, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

Can you be more specific about what's confusing? "Anglic languages" is a term used (rarely, admittedly) for English and its closest relatives, especially when one wants to imply that linguistic entities like Scots are separate languages, rather than dialects of English. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 22:48, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

AAVE is not a language[edit]

Making aave classifed as a sub english of english would mean you should also include american english,and australian english as a sub of english.

Does AAVE not have its origin in a kind of pigin or creole, e.g. Gullah. Though modern day varieties have converged more to the standard. That would differentiate it significantly from American and Australian English. BTW I'm no expert on that. 21:49, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

There is no proof that its even a language.

AAVE is a dialect of English and is thus covered under "English"

If you're listing AAVE as a dialect of English, you should really include other dialects. Otherwise you shouldn't list it at all. EDIT: I see that British v. American English have been deleted by the same person who seems to be defending AAVE being listed. Also, the different dialects are covered in the English article and so there is no need for AAVE -- Crushti e. 00:55, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps Doric and Ulster Scots should be removed too?
If we're going to delete everything that's considered a dialect rather than a separate language, then the list should contain only Old English language, Middle English language, and English language. Everything else is usually regarded as a dialect of one of these three. Angr (talk) 13:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah. This page is among the more spurious on wikipedia. Ultimately, what dialects are languages and what are merely dialects will be determined by the number of wikipedians supporting a particular dialect. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 13:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
According to the Oxford Companion to the English Language scholars of Scots use the chronology
Anglo-Saxon to 1100
Pre-literary Scots to 1375
Early Scots to 1450
Middle Scots to 1700
Modern Scots 1700 onwards
The University of Glasgow seem to have no problem following it [1]
Of course none of that necesarily makes it a language other than English but being academics they have no doubt lost the plot.
Perhaps the article Scots language should be merged with Scottish English, History of the Scots language with History of the English language, Older Scots with Middle English, Middle Scots with Early Modern English , Phonological history of the Scots language with Phonological history of the English language and Ulster Scots language with Hiberno English or Mid Ulster English though perhaps that should be merged with Hiberno English anyway.
Yeah, the problem is that "Anglo-Saxon to 1100" has little to do with contemporary Scotland, "Pre-literary Scots to 1375" is a historical invention, and "Early Scots to 1450" is never called Scots except by moderns Scots enthusiasts; speakers of the time only ever called it English, and there is no hint that contemporary speakers thought it any different; and indeed, these texts (of which there are quite a few), are closer to modern English that, for instance, Chaucer, who is able to write in long established dialect forms. - Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 22:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Is this a good place to point out that in the Iberian peninsula up until the Reconquest of Moorish lands, the language spoken there was often just called "Latin" even though today we'd call it Spanish or Castilian?

So Middle English was the contemporary term used by Middle English speakers when they were speaking Middle English!?! The only spurious definitions I've read recently are from yourself (Gaelic and Gaelic seperate languages, but uniquely amongst all linguistic sub-groups; English being untouchable and unable to develop into seperate languages.) Either you define language one way or the other but stop the dishonesty and demonstrate an equal critique on all languages (including Gaelic) 16:22, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

AAVE is nothing more than slang and colloquialisms within the American dialect of the English language. I'm an Appalachian American linguist who specifically studies English language history, and I'm surrounded by AAVE at all times. Therefore I feel that I have the right to make the call on it.

Ƿōdenhelm (talk) 17:32, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes. The obvious variation in prosody and phonology, the multitude of unique lexical items, and the significantly different verbal paradigms are just slang Gryphon Avocatio (talk) 06:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Why are you listing "Angloromani"[edit]

Doesn't seem written, its just a combination of two languages thats a creole not a dialect,If i made a creole of german and english would that be a language or a creole?

The family tree[edit]

Just passing through and couldn't fail to notice that the family tree seems to give the impression that Early Scots (was contemporanious with Early Modern English. Is this the case? 21:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It just means that they both, as well as Yola, come from a common Middle English, if indeed it can be at all regarded as separate. Calgacus (ΚΑΛΓΑΚΟΣ) 00:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


Shouldn't we discuss the position of the Yola language in all this?--Pharos 08:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I agree. It'd be nice if the article acknowledged anything spoken outside the island of Great Britain as Anglic. :) PubliusFL 21:58, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
It used to be here. It got lost in this edit where someone decided to replace the list format with a table. —Angr 22:27, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I tried to add the dialects in Ireland derived from Middle English; the table thing makes it a bit complicated. Is there anything else we should add — any other dialects not directly descended from Modern English?--Pharos 01:39, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I seem to remember reading that Pembrokeshire English is – like Yola, Fingalian and the West Country dialects – also derived from Southwestern Middle English, but can't find confirmation right now. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 22:42, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

Northern English?[edit]

Is it really true that traditional Northern English is closer to Scots than to Standard English? saɪm duʃan Talk|Contribs 07:23, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Indeed it is. Historically they were the same language variety until roughly the end of the 13th century [2], while Northubrian (the Anglo-Saxon ancestral to Scots and Northern English) had split from Mercian (the Anglo-Saxon dialect ancestral to Standard and Midland English) sometime between the arrival of the Angles and the arrival of the Normans to Great Britan (so anywhere between the 6th and 11th centuries). Thus, Northern Middle English and Early Scots are essentially synonymous in a purely linguistic sense (much like Old Cornish and Old Breton). In a more contemporary context however, the distance between broad Northern English and Scots is somewhat greater than that between Dutch Low Saxon and Low German[3]. By extension, Standard English may be considered as different from Broad Scots as High Dutch is from Low Saxon. (talk) 06:44, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

I speak English as a second language and I don't find Scots hard to understand, written or spoken. I doubt Low German speaker from Saxony can say the same about broad High German dialects like Austro-Bavarian, High Alemannic or Yiddish. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 23:52, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Not sure why you're bringing High German into the discussion. The user above you only compared Dutch vs. Low Saxon to English vs. Scots. Also, experience shows that people consistently overestimate their ability to understand foreign languages – which can, after all, be tested objectively. (Not to mention the complication that there are great differences between varieties of Scots, varying widely in their divergence from English, depending on how strongly influenced by English they are.) --Florian Blaschke (talk) 00:34, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Modern Northern English is closer to Standard Modern English then Scots, I'm not sure how this could be shown on the table but basically Modern Northern English is a mix between Northern Early Modern English and Standard Modern English. Regards, Rob (talk) 13:26, 7 August 2013 (UTC)


This article completely ignores that other, rather large place on Earth where most people speak English... Seems rather peculiar that it would be completely absent. Jersey John (talk) 05:44, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

It's not absent. All varieties of English outside the British Isles are included in Modern English. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:59, 12 September 2013 (UTC)