Talk:English people

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A key point is missing from this article. English people almost to a man and woman are likely to be British, ie UK passport holders. Let's improve this article and reflect this obvious fact. I look forward to comments and discussion. (talk) 20:11, 8 February 2013 (UTC)

Not really. There are over 100000000 English people around the world, only 46000000 are British. (talk) 08:03, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

The concept of "British" nationality is a sore point for many English people, as well as for the Scottish, Welsh, and Irish. A very large number of English people feel the term "British" takes away their sense of national identity. From an anthropological point of view, the term British, as a nationality, really means nothing, since Britain is a melting pot of at least five separate nations with their own languages and ethnic identity, the English, the Welsh, the Cornish, the Manx, the Scottish, and the Irish. Throwing one's nationality into the British blender is not appealing to many in the UK. The majority of Scottish people self identify as Scottish and not British, the same is true for Welsh and Irish people. Until recently most English did identify as British, mostly because of embarrassment over colonization and the Empire, since the words England and English invoke images of imperialism. Recently, since the mid 20th century, English people have reversed their feelings and most now do self identify as English. There are many examples from Richard Dawkins, to Antony Flew, to Mick Jagger, and Mark E. Smith as people who identify as English. There is already an article about the British Isles, and the UK, so let the concept of a British nationality, if it does in fact exist, be discussed there. This page is expressly for England.--Newmancbn (talk) 19:57, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

For at least the 100 years before the 1970s most English people would have looked confused if you asked them were they British or English, the two were synonymous in most English people's minds. Take example the use of flags at sporting events. Throughout most of the 20th century, the English flew the Union Flag at sporting events in which English teams competed. It was not until some time in the middle to late 1990s that English supporters started to fly the Cross of Saint George. If you listen to any of the recent television and radio content about the start of the Great War, i t is noticeable how many politicians of the era said English and England when today they would says British and Britain in similar circumstances, because the synonym between the terms has broken down. So if "'British' nationality is a sore point for many English people," it is a very new phenomenon and the evidence presented in the article does not support this contention (British identity, Guardian 2007), instead it presents a slow realisation that British and English are not one and the same thing, and that this means that cricket is not a British national sport. -- PBS (talk) 16:53, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Significant people[edit]

I would like to open a discussion on the section of significant English people, as I felt that some could be replaced by more widely known individuals within the same field; e.g. musicians such as Freddie Mercury, Chris Martin, David Bowie etc. might be considered in place of Damon Albarn. Of course, the matter is subjective, so, what are your thoughts? 424ever(talk) 22:18, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Popular music is already represented by George Harrison, but I don't see anyone from the world of classical music. What about Edward Elgar? DeCausa (talk) 22:14, 15 March 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps the composer of one of English National anthems could be included -- in which case I nominate Wallace Willis as an honorary Englishman 😉. -- PBS (talk) 11:35, 16 March 2014 (UTC)
Agree with DeCausa. "High" culture isn't well represented: we could do with a composer, painter or poet. Tigerboy1966  07:42, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
We have 3 from pop, 3 tv/film actors/celebs, 2 footballers but no one from the visual arts or classical music. That's not right. And Georgiana Cavendish...why? DeCausa (talk) 08:26, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree Damon Albarn shouldn't be in the collage! There are better selections, like Bryan Ferry or Kate Bush. Kate Bush would also be good for female represantion! (talk) 22:09, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

Should this be removed?[edit]

Should "while some are also descended from more recent immigrants from other European countries and from the Commonwealth." be removed, given at the beginning of the article, it is stated that this article is about nation and ethnic group? Clearly native people of other European countries and the Commonwealth are not ethnically English. There are of course "returnees" from Commonwealth countries whose forebears were ethnically English to begin with. There is also no reference source to the claim made, so it could be removed any way. (talk) 23:21, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Have a read of the discussions above and the archive and the Ethnic group article. "native people of other European countries and the Commonwealth" (may or) may not be ethnically English but that does not mean that those descended from them are not. Ethnicity is not determined by genetics (certainly not alone). Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:33, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
Eg Marc Isambard Brunel was a French immigrant, his son with his English wife, was Isambard Kingdom Brunel is considered to have been English by popular renown. He is not usually described as being half English/half French -- although I bet French history books emphasise that point. -- PBS (talk) 15:43, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

English identity[edit]

@Atotalstranger: I don't fully understand where you got the specific numbers from for this edit in which you state:

"2011 England and Wales census] reports that in the 80.5% of the population were white British, and that 42,279,236 of this group are part of the English ethnic group"

The source you quote states in a bullet point:

  • White was the majority ethnic group at 48.2 million in 2011 (86.0 per cent). Within this ethnic group, White British[1] was the largest group at 45.1 million (80.5 per cent).
  1. ^ White British census tick box is labelled as ‘White English/Welsh/Scottish/Northern Irish/British.

If is not clear to me how you derived the 42,279,236 from the above cited web page. There is another web page from the same source: "Ethnicity and National Identity in England and Wales 2011" that states:

  • English identity (either on its own or combined with other identities) was the most common identity respondents chose to associate with, at 37.6 million people (67.1 per cent). English as a sole identity (not combined with other identities), was chosen by 32.4 million people (57.7 per cent).

That seems to me that it contradict you calculation. Can you explain the difference?

-- PBS (talk) 11:47, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Hi, the 45.1 million figure is for England and Wales so some of the white British are also Welsh, I got the 42,279,236 from the other source I added. You can find the complete data from the 2011 census here Demography of England. Atotalstranger (talk) 20:59, 6 September 2014 (UTC)
PBS is correct to question this. The 2011 census in England and Wales did not ask about an English ethnic group but did ask respondents in England "How would you describe your national identity? Tick all that apply: English, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, British, Other, write in"[1] and respondents in Wales "How would you describe your national identity? Tick all that apply: Welsh, English, Scottish, Northern Irish, British, Other, write in".[2] Respondents were at liberty to include English whatever single ethnic group they then selected in the next question. The ONS report Ethnicity and National Identity in England and Wales 2011 does not cross-tabulate responses to those two questions and as far as I know the ONS has no plans to do so. It would be original research to attempt our own cross-tabulation, which would depend on a number of assumptions about the census respondents' views of themselves and how they reported those views on their census forms. I should also point out - though the above renders it irrelevant - that it would be a mistake to multiply the total population of the United Kingdom by a percentage for England and Wales. I have adjusted the infobox accordingly. NebY (talk) 15:08, 8 September 2014 (UTC)