Talk:Enigma machine

External links

I adde two additional external links: Cipher Machines & Cryptology and Frode's Crypto Cellar I also want to add two other links that are generally recognized as valuable reference information Tony Sale's Code and Ciphers and The Bletchley Park Trust I suggest to change the link to ellsbury's rotor wirings into the main page: Ellsbury's Enigma and the Bombe which brings a view onto much more information that the few rotor details, already added to wiki in the rotor details spin-off. Any comments pro/contra on all links, mentioned above, welcome... Dirk (talk) 17:36, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

As I have understood it is decided that no simulator links shall be found on this page (as on may other cipher/crypto pages). Would it be ok to mention in the Reference list that Cipher Machines & Cryptology has a good simulator? I guess that quite alot of the people reading about Enigmas would like to try one out.Skarek (talk) 10:58, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Clarification request

The following sentence, "During World War II codebooks were used only to set up the rotors and ring settings.", in the paragraph starting with "During World War II" in the Indicators section is unclear to me. I think the intention is to say, "During World War II codebooks were only used to set up the initial rotor settings each day." I may have misunderstood what is meant here, but if so then I am probably not the only one. So I ask whoever is knowledgeable on this topic to clarify it. Soler97 (talk) 10:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

During WW2 the Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe no longer used an initial setting. Each day, a new rotor combination, ring setting of those rotors and plugboard setting was given in the key sheet. There was no longer an initial setting (message key or ) since the operator selected a random message key, which was enciphered with a random start position. Naval procedures do had a startposition, the Grundstellung, but had a totally different use for them. More here: [1]. I will change that sentence into: "During World War II codebooks were only used each day to set up the rotors, their ring settings and the plugboard.". Does it make it clearer?Dirk (talk) 15:19, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Much better. Thanks. However, I am still a bit unclear on one point. My understanding is that the codebooks gave the initial settings of the Enigma, which were then changed for each message sent that day. If this is correct then please change the sentence to spell this out for people like me, who like things to be laid totally bare. Soler97 (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Not quiet. The internal settings and the plugboard are not the 'initial settings'. The internal settings (choice of rotors, rings and plugboard) were the same all day long, and of course set according to the key sheet. For each message anothe 'intitial' startposition for the rotors was selected.Dirk (talk) 17:57, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Could you spell out what exactly the codesheets specified? Are the ring settings and start position of the rotors the same thing? Was the plugboard rewired each day? Soler97 (talk) 02:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The Wehrmacht code sheets contained the selected rotors, the ring setting of the rotors and the plugboard. The ring setting (ringstellung) was NOT the startposition, but the relative position between the internal wiring of the rotor and the alphabet ring with its notch. More details about the rotors on this page The 'start position' or initial start position you are refering to is the actual message key, that is at which letter the rotor was turned at the beginning of the message, and was different to each message. This rotorposition was set manually on the exterior of the machine (and changed the letter in the little window). Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine changed the plugboard each day. The internal settings (rotor selection and ring setting) were changed each day at Wehrmacht and Luftwaffe and changed every two days at the Kriegsmarine. On this page you can view some examples of key sheets. So: Internal settings: the selected rotors and their ring setting - in some cases also the reflector - changed every one or two days. External settings: The plugboard wiring (changed every day) and the rotor position (changed every message).Dirk (talk) 12:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Inventor

I have reverted the edit that ascribes the invention of Enigma to Hugo Koch as this is contentious. See for example [2] which says "Many historians have erred in giving credit for the Enigma cipher machine of World War II famed to Hugo Koch and not to the rightful inventor, Arthur Scherbius." and goes on to give substantial evidence in support. TedColes (talk) 05:46, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Good catch (and I don't even think it's contentious, in that much earlier writing on Enigma just got a lot of facts wrong, and they've since been corrected.) — Matt Crypto 16:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

U571

Should this movie go in the references? I remember it was part of the movie, recovering a machine, but I havn't seen it in years and can't remember if it really is a major part of the movie. Cs302b (talk) 01:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I haven't watched it for a while either, but I reckon a brief mention would be OK. — Matt Crypto 16:56, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

If this movie is mentioned, it would please people on the eastern side of the Atlantic if there was mention that Hollywood distorted a real event by setting it in 1942 with US Navy personnel. As the Wikpedia article says (U-571 (film)) "The film's plot, though a work of fiction, is partly based on real events. It attracted criticism for two reasons: first, it was British personnel from HMS Bulldog who first captured a naval Enigma machine, from U-110 in the North Atlantic May 1941, before the United States entered the war. Second, German U-boat crews were portrayed in a negative light." TedColes (talk) 18:05, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Unless the movie claims to portray reality, is the disclaimer necessary? 69.135.185.154 (talk) 01:00, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Admittedly the dividing line between fact and fiction is increasingly being blurred these days, but it is relevant to read one review of this film which says:

If you believe U-571, Jonathan Mostow's submarine action romp set in the murky depths of World War II, the Americans were instrumental in the capture of the Enigma coding devices, used by the Germans to encrypt top secret messages.
The British barely feature in the war effort - it was the good ole Yankee boys leading the way, teaching Hitler a lesson or two with some well-placed torpedoes (the end credits reveal that it was in fact the Brits who captured the Enigma machines and ultimately deciphered the code. Fancy that!).
Such glaring lapses in historical accuracy litter Mostow's film, which throws all character and plot development overboard within the first five minutes and goes full steam ahead for sustained action.

I still think it appropriate to avoid the possibility of giving offence in this way.--TedColes (talk) 07:57, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Maybe, though I'd be more inclined just to mention that the film exists and is based on capturing an Enigma...if a reader wants to find out more, then they can read the full article on U-571, and find out about the inaccuracies there. — Matt Crypto 08:18, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Image

A new image that may be of some interest: commons:Image:Bundesarchiv Bild 183-2007-0705-502, Chiffriermaschine "Enigma".jpg - a 1943 German photograph of a machine. Shimgray | talk | 19:06, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

there is a new High resolution image of the Enigma machine which I think is better than image currently in use. Slavomir.Freso (talk) 09:06, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

It may be of a higher resolution, but it doesn't show the plugboard as well as the existing one. --TedColes (talk) 11:23, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Ugh. The low res gives a better view of plugboard and has better composition, but the high res allows one to read the instructions. I'd give them equal rank. The article already has a pix of the plugboard. I'm torn. Use both? Glrx (talk) 15:33, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

My preference would be for the existing one. Those who can read German and wish to, can find the hi-res picture in Wikimedia Commons. --TedColes (talk) 15:43, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Scherbius and Koch discussion

I'm not Dutch, but the changes you guys made - deleting Koch - are based on poor historic research and taking for granted just any source. Karl de Leeuw, a Dutch historian already in 2003 proved that the Enigma was invented by two Dutch navy officers, Spengler and van Hengel. Koch, who was working together with Scherbius. There is no doubt about the solid research and sources of this work of historian de Leeuw, which was published in Cryptologia. His work is acknowledged and confirmed by other historians. I understand that some people are a bit bitten in the **** that their version is fiction, and I understand their err. In those days, the patenting of such machines was a very obscure thing, played in the world of intellingence secrets. More here. Do whatever you want with it, but base your actions (deleting/adding stories) on the work and sources of historians, and don't base them on an opinion. Karl de Leeuw on the invention of the Enigma Dirk (talk) 15:37, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, Spengler and van Hengel are now known to have come up with the first rotor machines (as far as we know), but that doesn't mean they invented Enigma, which was a specific family of rotor machines. A corrective article on the history of Koch, Scherbius and Enigma was published in Cryptologia also, see [3]. — Matt Crypto 21:19, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Hi Matt, the article you mention is from 1999, the cryptologia article that explains the invention of that machine is from 2003! That later article is a correction of the 1999 article, not the other way around! They did invent the machine. Of course, it was scherbius that named it Enigma, but who named it how is not the discussion. The simple fact is that the machine that was later called Enigma is invented by the two Dutch naval officers. No more no less. Saying that Scherbius made the Enigma is the same as commercialising a DW (Disk with Music) but actually produce a CD. It's not becaus you gave it a name that you invented it.84.197.193.79 (talk) 12:14, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

De Leeuw's paper does not at all, as I read it, claim that Spengler and van Hengel invented Enigma, but rather that they were the first known inventors of a rotor machine. In that sense, they no more invented Enigma than they invented (say) Fialka, SIGABA and KL-7. All these machines are far from being merely rebranded carbon copies of the earliest rotor machines; nor was Enigma, which had a number of patents filed about its specifics. — Matt Crypto 17:46, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

international

I just wondered about the various contry/language specific articles on Enigma, in particular the editing-policy thereof. being myself a german engineer I found that the german page is somewhat quick to remove edits, while the same edits are easily accepted in the other languages for their significance. So do not miss the version checks on wikipedia !

Plugboard

Every unclassified source I am familiar with has indicated that the steckerboard added very little additional cryptographic strength. 143.232.210.46 (talk) 23:59, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

What sources are you reading? — Matt Crypto 06:18, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

The plug board added a huge amount of cryptographic strength. There are a total of 150,738,274,937,250 ways to arrange it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.98.214.216 (talk) 14:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Poles

Where is missing information about that Poles first broke the Enigma? --DumnyPolak (talk) 01:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Cryptanalysis of the Enigma; this article is focused on the machine itself, not the history of its solution. — Matt Crypto 15:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I think the information that the code was broken and by whom is quote important. For your reference, a recent BBC article on the role of Polish mathematicians in breaking the Enigma code: [4] --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference, although you might recall I'm already fairly well acquainted with the Polish mathematicians' role in breaking Enigma, and I'm enthusiastic that they get the recognition they deserve (for example, I helped get Marian Rejewski to Featured status in part for that reason). My argument here would simply be that there was a lot of history of breaking various Enigma systems by different nationalities, in different times and places -- Poles, French, British, Americans -- and that this colourful history might be better treated in detail in a separate article. — Matt Crypto 19:56, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

History is very simple, in 1932 three Polish mathematicians for the first time managed to decipher enigma and shared their results with the French and British intelligence service, where works on this machine were continued. I think that you are omitting the most essential fragments of history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.25.200.133 (talk) 13:50, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

...in different times and places -- Poles, French, British, Americans

Americans? What had to do Americans with Enigma? Probably a Hollywood science fiction films about this machine like britisch film ENIGMA with Kate Winslet :-)) - Markus —Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.25.200.133 (talk) 14:27, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

They made lots of fast bombes, for a start. — Matt Crypto 14:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)

The second paragraph is poorly written, and here's why:

It presently reads as follows:

• The machine has become well-known because Allied codebreakers were able to decrypt a vast number of messages which had been enciphered using the Enigma. The intelligence gleaned from this source, codenamed ULTRA by the British, was a substantial aid to the Allied war effort. The exact influence of ULTRA is debated, but an oft-repeated assessment is that decryption of German ciphers hastened the end of the European war by two years.

WHAT source??? The second sentence practically contridicts the first sentence because the way it's presently written, no mention has yet been made of the fact that Enigma eventually did fall into Allied hands. It's true that it's mentioned later in the body of the article, but that doesn't alleviate the fact that these sentences don't make sense in their present form. The words this source (emphasis added by me) do not reference what the source is/was. I suggest that between the 1st and 2nd sentences, another on should be added, one that would read, "That changed, however, when Allied forces captured an Enigma machine from the Germans, providing a valuable source of previously secret/classified information to Allied leaders . . . " or words to that effect. Please forgive me if I've added this new topic of discussion incorrectly; I still haven't figured out the procedure, and no one has ever responded to my repeated requests for assistance. Magnet For Knowledge (talk) 03:41, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Allied reading did not begin "when Allied forces captured an Enigma machine from the Germans." It began seven years before the war, when the Poles first reconstructed the machine on the basis of mathematical analysis and French-supplied intelligence materials. See "Biuro Szyfrów" and "Cryptanalysis of the Enigma." Nihil novi (talk) 04:48, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

You started the discussion topic just fine. Feel free to drop me a message on my talk page if you've got any questions about editing procedure, or there's the Wikipedia:Help desk. As Nihil novi has pointed out, the decryption of Enigma was not initially a result of capturing a physical device, but of logical and mathematical analysis. (Seizing a physical Naval Enigma did help Bletchley Park in World War II, as the Navy variant had additional security features.) So I don't feel there's any problem with the word "source" as it stands. — Matt Crypto 15:08, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

The following must be wrong (under Indicators)

There is no secret in the following procedure, so an attacker only needs a machine. Somehow there must be a daily code incorporated into the procedure.

During World War II, codebooks were only used each day to set up the rotors, their ring settings and the plugboard. For each message, the operator selected a random start position, let's say WZA, and a random message key, perhaps SXT. He moved the rotors to the WZA start position and encoded the message key SXT. Assume the result was UHL. He then set up the message key, SXT, as the start position and encrypted the message. Next, he transmitted the start position, WZA, the encoded message key, UHL, and then the ciphertext.

Tuntable (talk) 00:31, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The secret was "the rotors, their ring settings and the plugboard". — Matt Crypto 07:20, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

The setting used by hobbists from 1970-1985 to receive feeds from reuters, etc, was REDRUM. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.134.243.171 (talk) 06:02, 23 April 2010 (UTC)

Decoding

So how were the messages decoded (assuming one had the codebooks or equivalent)? There should be a bit more on the subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.68 (talk) 15:27, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Currently we have, "At the receiving end, the operation was reversed. The operator set the machine to the initial settings and typed in the first six letters of the message (XHTLOA). In this example, EINEIN emerged on the lamps. After moving his rotors to EIN, the receiving operator then typed in the rest of the ciphertext, deciphering the message." — Matt Crypto 16:18, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Also see the article Cryptanalysis of the Enigma.--TedColes (talk) 06:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Arthur Scherbius

Not an inventor. Just a patent owner. Vlsergey (talk) 01:10, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

An Error in the History of Rotor Encryption Devices? — Matt Crypto 06:59, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

There was much activity in and around the idea of mechanical cipher machines in the last year of WWI. Dutch officers, Koch, van Damm, Scherbius, and in the US Hebern. It seems to have been one of those ideas which were in the air. The light bulb was another, and so was the telephone. Clearly quite few folks had similar ideas. Unless there's some reason to believe one of them was copying from another, perhaps they all qualify as inventors? ww (talk) 21:41, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

American involvement

Editor Vumba is right in saying that American cryptographers were more focused on the Japanese codes than Enigma. By the time that the US joined WWII, the British at Bletchley park had worked out how to break most of the enigma ciphers. It is wrong, however, to say that US cryptos did not get involved. They had liaised with Bletchley Park before and soon had a contingent there. They ran one of the Bombe outstations and their naval bombes were of immense use to the whole Enigma-breaking activity.--TedColes (talk) 17:55, 8 April 2010 (UTC) One cannot re-write history. The US certainly made great use of the information as did other (limited) allied commanders. But to say that the US had a major role is strictly nationalistic. Lets stay with the facts. If TedColes has specific references to add please do so.--Vumba (talk) 20:09, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

"But to say that the US had a major role is strictly nationalistic." No, not really, and it's well documented in the literature. If Ted doesn't point you in the right direction of reliable sources, I will if I can get half an hour to spare. (I'd also suggest that to question someone's motives as "nationalistic" is not really on.) — Matt Crypto 21:56, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

I think that the following quotations from A. P. Mahon in THE HISTORY OF HUT EIGHT1939 – 1945, which was written in 1945, makes the point of the importance of the American naval contribution to the decryption of a vast number of messages which had been enciphered using the Enigma. They relate to the situation in 1943.

p. 88:

Before attempting to assess the value of the contribution of Op-20-G, which was immense, and also the difficulties which arose, which were fairly numerous, it is essential to understand that they were very different from ourselves in their fundamental organization. They were second in the field and agreed, and kept to the agreement, to play second fiddle and so naturally the people they put into their German machine cryptography were not the best cryptographers they had, but rather efficient and intelligent organizers with cryptographic knowledge.

And p. 91:

The acceptance by Op-20-G of the principle of pooled bombe resources was a fairly slow one. … By the time the Second Front opened very close and efficient cooperation existed. Priorities of keys were decided at weekly meetings at which the U.S.N. representative was present and Op-20-G stuck most loyally to the priorities as laid down, running a vast number of Hut 6 jobs and enabling them to break keys which would have otherwise have remained unbroken. I think it is a considerable tribute to the good sense of all parties concerned, and most especially to Op-20-G who were in a somewhat irksome position, that relations were at all times extremely cordial and that it was possible to get so much work so efficiently done when the machinery had to be shared by 3 groups of people, each feeling at heart that their own particular problem was the one which really mattered.

For the US Army's considerable contribution, I would refer to: The US 6812 Division Bombe Report Eastcote 1944

--TedColes (talk) 09:41, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

Polish contribution

Vumba says that 'the "Bomba" was a Polish decrypt machine later enhanced by the British.' I don't agree that this is a good reflection of the reality. Budiansky (2000), and others point out that Alan Turing developed the idea of a machine that the Bomba represented, but worked on an entirely different premise. To quote Budiansky:

The Bomba had very limited applicability. It depended on there being three doubly enciphered indicators in which the same letter was repeated in all three; it also would work only if that repeated letter happened to be unsteckered, so its true identity was known. But with a text crib Turing at once saw that a series of Enigmas could be linked together in a different architecture to perform an automated search. And it would be an incredibly powerful method.

We do indeed "need to stay with the facts here".--TedColes (talk) 16:51, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

It is, perhaps, worth quoting Peter Calvocoressi, who became head of the Luftwaffe section in Hut 3, who wrote in commenting on the Polish contribution:

The one moot point is - how valuable? According to the best qualified judges it accelerated the breaking of Enigma by perhaps a year. The British did not adopt Polish techniques but they were enlightened by them.

--TedColes (talk) 09:55, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

For the Fiction Section - 'Allo 'Allo

The Enigma Machine is used as a plot point in the latter half of Season 5 of the Popular Late '80s Early '90s British Sitcom 'Allo 'Allo. While the Actual Machine is not shown, it is mentioned in name between episodes #5.23 - #5.26 (and is Referenced in this Wikipedia Article) Thought it'd be a good addition to the section --220.253.152.227 (talk) 16:16, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Accuracy check: was Ultra only sourced from 'Axis' powers?

R.e. this good faith edit [5] Can we be certain that non-'Axis' powers weren't a source of Ultra? I ask because (1) PC Bruno appears to have had dedicated Spanish and Russian sections, suggesting Spain and the U.S.S.R. may have been a source of Ultra and (2) 'Axis' has quite a specific definition of just Germany and Italy (the "Rome-Berlin Axis" ) until the Tripartite Pact of 1940 when Japan joined. I'd be surprised if there was no Japanese-sourced Ultra prior to Japan joining the Axis. (3) Are we sure there was no U.S.-derived Ultra 1939-1941? Thanks in advance, -Chumchum7 (talk) 18:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Comment

I changed enemy to Axis to improve the point of view. The original enemy has the same problem -- Spain and Russia were not enemies. (I equate codeword Ultra to German codes/decrypts and codeword Magic to Japanese codes, but Ultra often refers to all codebreaking efforts.)

There was US derived Ultra before the US entered the war. OP-20-G was reading Japanese Blue Code (used until November 1938) in the 1930s. Information included the postmodernization characteristics of the Mitsu-class battleships. (Prados, Combined Fleet Decoded, page 79.) I would expect that to have been shared with the UK because they had interests in the Far East. OP-20-G had apparently made significant progress on the new code by October 1940. In late 1940, the Japanese introduced JN-25. (Prado, p 80.) OP-20-G could read many codes, and "thousands of these messages would be decoded before December 7, 1941, with Purple decrypts beginning to flow in September 1940." (Prados, p 165.)

The thrust of the paragraph, however, is about Ultra helping to win the war -- and that would emphasize the time when the war was actually being fought. Without German Naval decrypts, the Battle of the Atlantic could have been a much different story. The tag line on Kahn's Seizing the Enigma is "the race to break the german U-boat codes, 1939-1943". US involvement with Enigma began in 1940; a contingent arrived in Britain in late 1942. (Kahn, p 235.)

Glrx (talk) 20:10, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Great answer. How about resting on "Winston Churchill said that Ultra, the product of the decryption of Enigma and other ciphers, was instrumental to the Allied victory in World War II" The reader still understands, and there's no risk of imprecision... -Chumchum7 (talk) 22:32, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Or rather: "Winston Churchill said that Ultra, the decryption product of Enigma and other ciphers, was instrumental to the Allied victory in World War II" -Chumchum7 (talk) 22:37, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Either sentence is OK. I'd lean toward saying, Winston Churchill said that Ultra, the decryption of Enigma and other ciphers and codes, was .... The term product, however, suggests that Ultra was the digested result of the decryption rather than the decryption itself; hence product may be more accurate. Glrx (talk) 00:29, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Agreed and done.-Chumchum7 (talk) 07:25, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Primary source

Does anyone know of a primary source for the statement that: "Winston Churchill told Britain's King George VI after World War II: 'It was thanks to Ultra that we won the war.'"? The reference at [6] is only a secondary source. --TedColes (talk) 17:30, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Very good question. Now I see why you used "reported" that triggered my WP:W2W concern (nothing to do with W2W - my snafu). That said, WP:V and WP:PSTS guidance indicates we should trust secondary sources. -Chumchum7 (talk) 17:42, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

The issue is not primary/secondary source but rather whether the source is WP:V and WP:RS. So the issue for the given reference is its reliability. Glrx (talk) 20:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps the source does not even merit the title of "secondary source", maybe it is, in effect, tertiary by WP's criteria. I would be a lot happier if we had a better source. The best that I have seen relates it to an exhibit in 2003 on "Secret War" at the Imperial War Museum. I have e-mailed them asking if they have a source, but I'm not holding my breath. --TedColes (talk) 22:47, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Good call. If you are UK taxpayer, they have to answer you. That museum is funded by you. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:10, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

That said, personally I'm satisfied that the ref is a reliable secondary source per WP:RS.-Chumchum7 (talk) 09:13, 6 November 2010 (UTC)

The Secret War - BBC 1977 TV programme

There's an episode of the BBC television series The Secret War (based on the book Most Secret War by R.V. Jones) about the Enigma and Bletchley Park including interviews with some of the people involved, on YouTube here: [7] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.68.219 (talk) 16:18, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Some details

Aren't the recent edits of this section at variance with the guidelines about paragraph length in Wikipedia:Writing better articles#paragraphs? It has all become somewhat staccato. --TedColes (talk) 07:39, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the section gains in clarity from the treatment of individual parts of the topic (the practices in individual branches of the German armed services) in separate paragraphs. The contrasts among their several approaches to similar problems become better-defined.

For me, clarity and ease of orientation trumps arbitrarily determined paragraph length. Nihil novi (talk) 08:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Royal visit to Bletchley Park on 15 July 2011

Yesterday the Queen of England unveiled a monument to the men who broke the Enigma Code. According to the material read out it was a group of British scientists who broke the code and the secret place they worked in the midlands was also shown. They also showed the machine they developed to continuously break codes, calling it "the first computer". It appears that this contradicts the article on Wikipedia about Enigma which states that the Poles broke Enigma after the 1st WW. Which of these is correct?Chrismort1 (talk) 06:48, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Some press reports of this visit were inaccurate. The machines that contributed to decrypting Enigma messages were the Bombes. The reference to the first computer is to the Colossus computers that contributed to the decryption of the Lorenz SZ42. The Poles were indeed the first to 'break' the Enigma cipher in 1932/33, but breaking systems such as these is not a one-off activity, it requires repeated efforts to keep up with improvements. By the time Bletchley Park was opened, just before the satrt of WWII, the Poles were achieving very little success, but they gave their secrets to the British and French, which enabled full-scale decryption to resume after a few months. See: Dedication of Bletchley Park Memorial by HM the Queen, 15 July 2011, http://www.bletchleypark.org.uk/news/docview.rhtm/646969  --TedColes (talk) 08:30, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Why the odometer analogy works (the video I added is NOT useless and currently used in a course a Mcgill University)

Glrx claims "addition is not permutation". He may have a PHD in philosophy, however I think he's misunderstanding this simplification. It has nothing to do with permutations, a permutation is equivalent to shuffling a deck of cards. Would he argue that this is also too much of a simplification?

When explaining the Enigma, many people get bogged down in the details of the electrical wiring. However the essence of the enigma's operation is that each wheel position applies a specific shift to the input character. So each electrical path can be defined equivalently as some addition. The randomness of the machine, can then be explained by the random listing of numbers on the wheels. This sells the point that A. it's deterministic, and B, the rotors are pseudorandom.

I simply think this is the best way to introduce the topic, it abstracts the mechanics and focuses on the mathematics

Reference (i used this example as a TA in): http://crypto.cs.mcgill.ca/~dumais/cs647/cs647.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.249.232 (talk) 21:32, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

NOTE:

Regarding Glrx, I totally respect and read his contributions. However, I'd love for him/someone else to come up with an analogy that can be understood at first glance, by abstracting mechanical movements into mathematical operations. What enigma/lorenz and all the machine share is message + Psuedorandomness

So what's the best way to demonstrate psuedorandomness numerically. I've read Knuth's SemiNumerical Algorithms and we could use some middle square method. Or, why not just take a strip of pseudorandom digits, and mount them on wheels. From there we could come up with all sorts of options for then using those digits to define a shift:

ie. If wheels A B C are showing, should we take Shift = A*B*C MOD 26 ? Shift = A + B + C MOD 26 ?

How about, A^B * B^c * B^A MOD 26 ?

How we choose the operations simply change the topological mixing.

And reason why we can't use addition? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.98.214.216 (talk) 02:30, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

You, youtube, and I are not reliable sources. It is not our job to create explanations. Where is a reliable source that explains the Enigma as addition. Watch out for WP:SYNTHESIS.

If you look at an Enigma rotor, it does not have random letters written on it. The letters are in sequence. Consequently, the proposal adds confusion. Odometers do not have random numbers on them. The Enigma counts in sequence. BTW, my 1998 car does not have a mechanical odometer. And there isn't a clear explanation of what is going on. (The video also has some two digit labels.) There's a lot of explanation required to introduce this simplification.

What part of the Enigma performs addition? There's a very subtle issue of computational simplicity here. Enigma increments and permutes.

The Enigma performs encryption and decryption the same way. E() = D(). You cannot do that with ordinary addition. There's a problem with isomorphism. So how do you fix it? Use XOR? Change the simplification to substract when decoding?

What about the group theory issues that E(x) != x? Why is the number that needs to be added is never 0?

The video is poor (and has few views). The video is not clear about what it is doing.

IIRC, the IP that introduced the vide said he made it for a class. He has a COI. The video was challenged. A reintroduction in the article should have required a discussion on the talk page and a consensus. Instead of discussing it, it was brought into the text proper as a reference.

Are all these insertions being done by the same individual?

Glrx (talk) 18:23, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

A deficiency of an ordinary odometer as an explanation of the advancement of Enigma rotors is that, starting from zero, an odometer does not turn over the second rotor until the first rotor completes a full revolution. The Enigma scrambler may turn over the middle rotor on any one of the first 26 key depressions, including the first one.--TedColes (talk) 21:48, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. However, that's because of the wiring. The middle rotor doesn't randomly turn, it still clicks along as a odometer would. In this case the random digits on the rotor are performing the same job as the wiring. If we didn't have the numbers scrambled on the rotor, then yes, every press the rotors would all have to turn to some new place (which is the same as an electrical signal jumping around). The biggest problem I see is the fact that you can have A=A. However, I still think it's a useful road to explore. Especially if you want to show kids how this works and get them interested in the details of wiring. Right now, this article is not user friendly in my mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.249.232 (talk) 15:04, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

But your exploration is original research and not proper content for WP. If there is not a reliable source, it does not belong in WP.

Here's another problem with your shift/addition/Caesar substitution cipher simplification for permutation. The Enigma has a reflector. How does your analogy explain its function? The rotors are traversed right to left, reflected, and then traversed left to right. Under the addition idea, the traverse from right to left should add the numbers on the dial (shift), and the traverse from left to right should subtract them (unshift). That will make encryption and decryption work, but with shifts/addition, the rotors are now the identity operation and do nothing.

Glrx (talk) 15:28, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

If you read the description of the the video it explains that this animation ignores the plug-boards and the reflector - focusing on the core function which is psuedorandom shifts. Remember the addition is abstracting the entire electrical pathway, so the reflector has nothing to do with it. The reflector is simply an extra mix operation.

To me the core of Enigma is:

A -> (permutation) -> Shifted letter

So the permutation can be explained in detail with the electrical pathways. However, there has to be an analogy to explain how this is basically a fancy odometer which outputs random shifts values. Perhaps someone could come up with a better way. Why not make it easier for everyone to understand aside from tech geeks?

What would Richard Feynman do?

We would agree that there is a simplification to be made here, to merely introduce the concept. THEN explain how it works.

Ideally, it would be a slot machine type operation which occurs each shift. Which is what the video is trying to do. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 154.20.249.232 (talk) 17:03, 5 August 2011 (UTC)