Talk:Epistle of James
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
See WP:LEAD. The lead should summarize the article and be able to stand on its own. The current lead is nothing like a good Wikipedia lead. Could someone please beef it up? Jonathan Tweet 17:24, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
- It's a controversial book and thus this wikipedia article is subject to POV blanking and edit wars. Catholics and Orthodox claim it invalidates the Protestant doctrine of sola fide, Protestants claim it doesn't. Just read the Catholic Encyclopedia: Epistle of St. James: "Luther strongly repudiated the Epistle as "a letter of straw", and "unworthy of the apostolic Spirit", and this solely for dogmatic reasons, and owing to his preconceived notions, for the epistle refutes his heretical doctrine that Faith alone is necessary for salvation. ... For the question of apparent opposition between St. James and St. Paul with regard to "faith and works" see EPISTLE TO THE ROMANS." 220.127.116.11 18:33, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
- If the lead is supposed to show the reader why the topic is interesting, a neutral summary of the controversy belongs there. Jonathan Tweet 12:20, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- To me, the problem is just what goes in the lead, because opinions vary over what are the key points to put in the introduction. To the pious Christian with little interest in Biblical disputes, it is an intensely practical book (no cite there, just a personal observation). To many Protestants and Catholics, it is a key book in the faith/works question, and also perhaps in questions on prayer and healing. To the conservative Bible scholar there is the question of which James wrote it, when, and why. To the more critical Bible scholar, there are also questions of pseudonymity. For a simple Bible dictionary type introduction, one might want to mention its audience and its Jewish character. So... writing a concise and NPOV introduction is tricky, and it looks like everyone's dodged doing it so far :) Peter Ballard 12:53, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
- Peter, you seem to have a good handle on what goes in the lead. It should be able to stand alone as a concise summary of the topic. Everything you mentioned would fit. The point is to describe everything the book is, not decide which one thing it is. I look at it this way: write it as if the reader is going to read nothing but the lead, and we are going to give them a complete picture of the epistle just with the lead. Jonathan Tweet 13:51, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
The lede is really taking shape. There are a lot of weak leads on WP, and it's nice to see one come into its own. The lede could still use a summary of the epistle's content. Jonathan Tweet 13:21, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
So factual error is permisable as long as it has been published?
The opening comments should be changed to read: There are four views concerning the Epistle of James, that have been published and acceptable on Widipedia.
Because it is most certainly not the case that there are just four views concerning the authorship of James. There is a fifth. That James was written during the earthly ministry of Jesus, before the Crucifixion. rem486 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rem486 (talk • contribs) 14:23, 30 October 2011 (UTC)
So is soneone trying to covertly transition to the idea that James was written before the crucifixion, by postulating that it was written before Paul's letters? Because before Paul's letters was the period of time before the crucifixion.rem486 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 13:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- @unsigned - Did you mean to put a question mark at the edn of your statement? A Georgian (talk) 16:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Rem486 / Original Research
Correct use of Talk Page / Archive Created
I remind users of Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, Article talk pages should not be used by editors as platforms for their personal views.
Since User Rem486 has written a lot of his personal views on this Talk page, I have put them (as well as old discussions) in the Archive page /Archive 1. I was tempted to delete them altogether, but I instead dumped them in the archive.
Please use this Talk page only for discussing the article, not for talking about pet theories*. Depending on how ruthless I feel, I may simply delete opinion pieces in future. Peter Ballard (talk) 01:36, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
The article has whole paragraph, uncited, saying "Authorship has also occasionally been attributed to the apostle James the Great, brother of John the Evangelist and son of Zebedee". Attributed by who? FWIW I have never heard that claim. I propose deleting it unless a decent cite can be found. Peter Ballard (talk) 03:25, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Blast from the Past
The use of peirasmos in James Peirasmos means just that: Temptations, not tribulations. The over whelming use of the word in the New Testament has nothing to do with violence, as some commentators of the book of James have written. A typical example of the word is Matthew 26:41 where Jesus tells his disciples to watch and pray so they enter not into peirasmos. Did He think someone was going to start a brawl? Of course not, actually He was rebuking them for falling asleep! Even in the most possibly violent use of the word, Revelation 3:10, there is no guarantee that is the meaning. To date the book of James during the persecution and scattering of the Church in Acts using peirasmos is a great disservice. Peirasmos does not imply violence but spiritual challenge. Indeed, nowhere in the account of the persecutions in Acts does peirasmos even appear. Because that account details real physical violence, not just spiritual challenge. The 'divers temptations' of James 1 is not the physical violence of Acts, but the desire to sin found in every human heart. The effort to find a proper setting for the epistle of James is hindered when we contort the meaning of its words. rem486 (Oh don't worry, I've saved the Archive page to disk.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rem486 (talk • contribs) 11:36, 15 September 2010 (UTC)
- Never say just... For the sake of it: Explain what the word temptation signify. According to the authoritative Greek word study tool of the Perseus Project at Tufts University: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=peirasmo%2Fn&la=greek - Peirasmon may mean either 'trial', or 'temptation'... To my mind's capacity those two concepts are quite different.. So "just"... is not exactly a proper reaction... Or should I say: Just keep your temper... --Xact (talk) 20:19, 8 December 2010 (UTC)
Dear Mr. Xact, et. al. Why not so exacting about James 1:1? "To the twelve tribes of Israel in the dispersion." I take the verse exactly as it was written during the earthly ministry of Jesus. If you dont, You are just a flamming hypo...(Oopps, I've got to remember to hold my temper.)rem486
comment moved here from article - + * (What? Say What? Jacob and James are the same name? In what galaxy? Jacob is Jacob and James ia an Elizabethan transliteration of an Old French name? Sorry it took me so long to spot this but I"ve moved on and only revisit this page occasionally.) rem486
James is also notable for its lack of content. None of the following New Testament subjects or doctrines appear in the Epistle of James: the Passion, the Crucifixion, the Blood, the Tomb, the Resurrection, the Ascension, the Atonement, the Grace of God, the New Covenant, the Son of God, the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, the Substitution, the Deity of Christ, the Apostles, Eternal Life, Pentecost. rem486 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rem486 (talk • contribs) 13:26, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
- Fine, then all you need is a reliable source saying that. But we can't, see WP:NOR (I'm sure you've been told that before). Dougweller (talk) 14:08, 25 August 2011 (UTC)
Uh, so the Epistle of James, which contains none of the aforementioned subjects or doctrines, is not a reliable source? Read it and prove me wrong. (Although I'm sure I've mentioned that before) rem486 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rem486 (talk • contribs) 13:08, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
- No, you are not a reliable source. How many times do you have to be asked to read WP:NOR & WP:VERIFY. Seriously, this is getting WP:Disruptive. If you refuse to use or find reliable sources according to our criteria (see also WP:RS you simply don't belong here. Dougweller (talk) 13:57, 26 August 2011 (UTC)
I agree that I am not a reliable source. How many times do I have to say that James is the reliable source. Right? rem486 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 03:09, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
- And your analysis of James is what I am talking about. Find a reliable source that discusses James and says what you are trying to say. We can't use your analysis. Dougweller (talk) 06:13, 31 August 2011 (UTC)
Alternative Alternative View
Lack of Citation
Literally thousands of articles on Wikipedia carry a warning banner about the need for further citation to establish a fact. In other words 'original research'. So how come the only original research that gets deleted is mine? Maybe I'm hitting a nerve? I only mention this in case your pain is blinding your hypocrisy. rem486 and yes, I AM signed in.
- As someone who just stumbled across the article and happened to view the talk page, I don't believe that Dougweller's actions can be fairly called hypocrisy. For many statements that are not cited, we may simply assume good faith and let the statement remain in the article and leave a citation needed tag to allow the author time and opportunity to add the citation. However, I can see that it in this case it was somewhat more difficult for Dougweller to assume good faith as you've historically had a tenuous relationship with this article and various other editors: numerous warnings; repeated publication of original research; failing to add citations for each time you've reinserted original research after deletion by a fellow editor; and exegetical effort on the article's talk page to develop and explain ideas. Given this, Dougweller was certainly not being hypocritical when he opted to enforce WP:NOR and delete your contribution.
- While your statement concerning the lack of content in James was by itself innocent enough, the concerning point is that you are seemingly using it as a platform to air your belief that the Epistle was written during Jesus' earthly ministry (at which point the Crucifixion and post-Crucifixion events wouldn't have yet occurred, which you purport to explain James' lack of reference to them), which seems to be a dating for the Epistle that is held by an extremely small minority as I've yet to see this viewpoint presented in a reputable scholarly or theological resource. Fundamentally, it seems that you're misunderstanding the purpose of Wikipedia: it isn't a medium to publish and develop our personal ideas about a particular topic, but rather its purpose is to present the ideas of individuals published in reputable sources. As others have said, if you have a reputable source that espouses the pre-Crucifixion dating of the Epistle of James, you are more than welcome to reintroduce the relevant information with appropriate citations.
- As a minor note, when you asked previously in the talk page whether an editor was "trying to covertly transition to the idea that James was written before the crucifixion, by postulating that it was written before Paul's letters? Because before Paul's letters was the period of time before the crucifixion", that editor was not. The cited source explicitly states the most likely earliest date for James being written is the mid to late 40s. Also you are incorrect in that Jesus' Crucifixion directly preceded Paul's first letter (1 Thessalonians) as by using traditionally accepted dates, from the Crucifixion (33 AD) to Paul's 1 Thes (52 AD), there would have been a period of 19 years which coincides with the cited source's statements. Sixteen85 (talk) 07:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
- Oh Sixteen85, Re: The period preceeding Paul's epistles.
Evidently noone is going to bite the bullet and forthrightly admit that I am right, and that they have all been wrong all along. But I can forsee a situation where they attempt to quietly morph their position into my position. i.e. by first stating that it is possible that James was written in a period before Paul's epistles, and eventually transitioning to that part of the time before Paul's epistles that is during the earthly ministry of Jesus. By the way, I'm sorry if I led you to believe that I thought that the Crucifixion was immediatly followed by Paul's epistles. That, of course, would be scripturally incorrect. By the way, no 'good faith' is necessary regarding my comments about the absence of doctrines in James. Simply read the epistle, find the doctrines and prove me wrong. Oh, that's right, you can't find those doctrines in James! rem486 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rem486 (talk • contribs) 15:06, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
- You may misunderstand the purpose of this page. It isn't to discuss the Epistle of James (or any other Epistles) but to discuss the article. And a lot of original research gets deleted, I have no idea why you think it's only yours. It's been almost four years since you were first warned about original research yet you seem to either not understand our policy (have you read it) or are disregarding it. Dougweller (talk) 16:26, 5 February 2012 (UTC)
"Rather, evidence points to James the brother or half-brother of Jesus,...' The preceding clause is exactly the kind of hypocrisy I'm talking about. This statement from the article is wholly without merit yet stands uncontested. What evidence points to Lord's brother? Other than the speculation of Church writers who were 300 years removed from the events. There may be coincidence, but there is no evidence. rem486
Why would you think that the Epistle was written by one of the two Apostles of Jesus named Jacobius, just because he states that his name is Jacobius and hes a servant of Jesus????? It's that kind of antiquated logic that would have you believe that the world really was created in six solar days.rem486
It's frightening how ubiquitous error can be. i.e. "Jesus had two apostles named James..." This quote from the article is just such an example. Jesus did not have two apostles named James, he had two apostles named Iacobius. A simple but telling mistake. rem486 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rem486 (talk • contribs) 20:41, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
- Which, of course, is usually translated as James in English. Not really a very big issue, considering that even the name Jesus is a variant form of his actual name as adapted first into Greek, then into Latin, and then into English. Aristophanes68 (talk) 22:18, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Dear Aristophanes, I'm sorry the linguistic differnces in Ἰησοῦς to Jesus are nothing compared to the chasm between Ἰάκωβος and James. But I think you know that already. rem486 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rem486 (talk • contribs) 13:45, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
With these two edits I removed a paragraph that contained an alternative theory that the epistle was written by James the Great. I don't have any problem with this theory per se, but it needs a source. The paragraph was also awkwardly placed, in that an earlier paragraph had already established that evidence points to James the brother [or half-brother] of Jesus. Therefore, I have no problem with someone reinserting the following text into the article if a reliable source can be located for the hypothesis:
- Authorship has also occasionally been attributed to the apostle James the Great, brother of John the Evangelist and son of Zebedee The letter does mention persecutions in the present tense (2:6), and this is consistent with the persecution in Jerusalem during which James the Great was martyred (Acts 12:1). If written by James the Great, the location would have also been Jerusalem, sometime before 45AD.
This article is a mess. It contains no clear organisation, and sadly, like a lot of the articles on the texts of Christianity, seems to contain a lot of OR from amateurs who are interpreting it from there own religious tradition and are not aware that that interpretation is not the global one. I am starting to clear out the obvious WP:OR. If you disagree with a chop, please re-include with a clear cite that makes the point (not four cites provided as evidence that you synthesise). The 'Alterative interpretation' section is the worst. The name does not make it clear what it is interpreting and what it is an alternative to. It seems to contain a lot of original research and gives undue weight to something that may be a minority interpretation. Ashmoo (talk) 09:52, 4 June 2014 (UTC)
Very Clean Article
The following would make a very clean and accurate article for the Epistle of James. "The Epistle of James was written by a disciple, before Jesus was Crucified." (Now reread it and see it make sense.) rem486