Talk:Eritrean–Ethiopian War

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Former good article nominee Eritrean–Ethiopian War was a Warfare good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
December 16, 2012 Good article nominee Not listed
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Africa / Eritrea / Ethiopia (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Africa, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Africa on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Eritrea (marked as Top-importance).
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Ethiopia (marked as Top-importance).
WikiProject Military history (Rated B-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
B This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject International relations  
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject International relations, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of International relations on Wikipedia.
If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale.
 ???  This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.
Wikipedia Version 1.0 Editorial Team / v0.7
WikiProject icon This article has been reviewed by the Version 1.0 Editorial Team.
Taskforce icon
This article has been selected for Version 0.7 and subsequent release versions of Wikipedia.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the quality scale.

Negasso Gidada or Meles Zenawi[edit]

I am removing the name reinserted with this this edit as neither name is supported with a citied source. The name "Tsadkan Gebre-Tensae" was inserted with a source with this edit on 21 August 2007, if any other name is added it should only be done if it is supported with a reliable source. -- PBS (talk) 08:40, 11 February 2013 (UTC)

There is absolutely no need for a source for a commonly known fact that the head of state of Ethiopia is the prime minister. It is supported by hundreds of sources including the 1995 Constitution of Ethiopia. Unless you are suggesting that we need a source to list the head of state of a country as a leader, which is ridiculous and not consistent with any other conflict article. I have edited as per WP:CITEKILL. — አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 13:08, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia policy Verifiability is quite clear and you are breaching it: "The burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material" (WP:BURDEN ). What you have linked to, WP:CITEKILL, is an essay it is not policy. There have been two different claims as to who was a commander, so clearly there is a need for a citation.
There is only one citation in that square and that was for another fact therefore you need another citation that specifically supports the fact that the person you include was a commander during the war. Head of state is not good enough, as for example the queen of the United Kingdom is head of state, but the British monarch is not included these boxes because she takes no active part in military decisions. -- PBS (talk) 13:39, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Citation #29 of article contains all the sources you need. As per WP:INFOBOX, the infobox is not intended to have any new info. It is intended to summarize facts in the article. Please revert your last edit.
I do not need a source to state that the sky is blue or that the queen of England is no longer directly involved in political affairs.
Correction: Negasso Gidada was the Head of State. Meles Zenawi was the Head of Government. Just like your example, Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. — አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 13:59, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
The article also refers several times to EPRDF as the then ruling party making command decisions. As the head of EPRDF, this is an indirect reference to Meles Zenawi. — አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 14:21, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Constitution of Ethiopia states:
  • "The President of the Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia is the Head of State."
  • "The Highest executive powers of the Federal Government are vested in the Prime Minister and in the Council of Ministers."
Would you like me to keep going? Or have I proved my point. — አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 14:39, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
If you add information to the article then I would like you to provide "a reliable source that directly supports the material". -- PBS (talk) 16:30, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Who makes military decisions depends on various factors. One of which is the constitution. For example in the case of Britain the issuing of directives (not orders as they are civilians and not soldiers) is done by a war subcommittee of the Cabinet which has collective responsibility. In the case of the US (depending the scale of the war) the decision is with the US President because it is a presidential system in which executive power resides with president as head of the armed forces (not all presidential systems place executive power in the hands of a president). So in this case if a person is to appear in the box there ought to be a citation that directly supports their involvement in military operations. -- PBS (talk) 17:24, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Simple question, if UK became involved in a war today. Would you require a citation to include the Prime Minister in the Infobox. Even if the article never mentions David Cameron, no one would question his inclusion in the infobox as the head of the Cabinet. There is no difference here. This is clearly WP:CITEKILL.
Sorry about the spelling correction. Natural reaction.— አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 22:17, 11 February 2013 (UTC)
Yes they would. The last war which Britain fought without being a member of a coalition was the Falklands War, clearly most editors of that page (who will be British) do not think it necessary to include Mrs T. Or see The Troubles or a small confrontations such as British military intervention in the Sierra Leone Civil War. If you want to include the leaders and they were involved in operational decisions, then it should be easy to find sources, if not and you include them the you are committing a syn (peccavi)-- PBS (talk) 19:53, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── The citation already exists in the article. If you want it repeated, here you go. Note this is the exact sentence used as a source for the last sentence of Prelude section.

Isayas gambled wrongly, as Meles, under great pressure from his party and the Tigray home base — hard hit by the invasion — as well as the wider public, did not deescalate and had to respond by force.

This is a ridiculous use of a citation. You should review your understanding of what the intended purpose of a INFOBOX is. Perhaps consider some WP:COMMONSENSE:

Being too wrapped up in rules can cause loss of perspective...

The examples you gave list no commanders and leaders. Therefore, they prove absolutely nothing. Perhaps, you fail to realize the difference between a conflict in a far away territory to a two-year long war between two neighboring countries. This did not involve allied forces with a chosen general. It was a war between two sovereign countries. I have no doubt I can find many more sources like the one above.

Again, the sky is blue. That fact does need citation. However, the reason why it is blue does. In the same way, the fact that command and leadership decisions in a parliamentary government are made by the Prime minister does not need citation here. The reasons are well explained and cited in these two previous articles.

Assuming good faith, perhaps I should also advise you to also read Patronymics and Habesha names.— አቤል ዳዊት?(Janweh64) (talk) 03:38, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

Searchtool-80%.png Response to third opinion request ( A disagreement on whether a citation is required to list Meles Zenawi and Isaias Afewerki under "Commander and leaders" in the Template:Infobox military conflict. ):
I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Eritrean–Ethiopian War and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

First I would like to remind both active editors of WP:CIVIL. That being said, the source does verify that Meles Zenawi, as the Prime Minister of Ethiopia, yet the citation does not verify that Isaias Afewerki was President of Eritrea during the conflict. That being said, there does not appear to be a consensus of active editors whether any leaders (political, military, or otherwise) should be listed at all. From what I read above, one active editor believes there should be, and another does not. If they are to remain, it is my humble opinion, that verification should be done in the infobox to keep with VER. As has been shown, some conflicts do list political and military leaders, others only list military leaders, and others list none. I would suggest opening an Request for Comment to help form a consensus as to whether the infobox should list military leaders. If the consensus is not to list them in the infobox, the content can always be in the body of the article (as the references already verify (partially)). RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 20:16, 13 February 2013 (UTC)


Something is causing the title to be italicised, but I can't figure out what it is. Somebody who knows should fix it. Srnec (talk) 00:27, 17 March 2013 (UTC)