Talk:Etchmiadzin Cathedral

Dubious claim

The "the first church to be built in Armenia" claim is patently false and I have tagged it as dubious. Christian communities had existed in Armenia long before the foundation of this church. What it is is the oldest known surviving church in Armenia. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 14:54, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

The existence of Christian communities doesn't make the statement any less true. The claim is properly sourced. If you have any problems concerning the reliability of the source, take it to Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. --Երևանցի ^talk 17:50, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

We do not pile everything into an article that we find online, we should sift through things to exclude things that are likely to be untrue even if some source canbe found stated it is true - that is called "editing". Are you actually saying that for the 200 or so years before the founding of this church there were no churches in Armenia? I wonder who Trdates was oppressing then, if there were no Christians in Armenian before St Gregory did his magical mass conversion of a whole country. Go eliminate your national myths about St Thaddious and St Bartholomew then: the stories of their passages through Armenia, making conversions and founding churches, must be falsehoods according to you and your source. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:10, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Are you actually saying that for the 200 or so years before the founding of this church there were no churches in Armenia? There might have been religious buildings, but not every religious building can be considered a church. And my opinion is not relevant here. As I said below, we go by published sources and not personal opinions or assumptions. The Oxford source clearly calls Etchmiadzin the first church in Armenia. If you can find other reliable sources that reject this claim I will be glad to look at them. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:17, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Then find a proper source, an academic work just on Armenian architecture, that states something as specific as "Etchmiadzin was the first church built in Armenia". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:49, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

The Oxford History of Christian Worship is a WP:RELIABLESOURCE. Once again, if you don't believe it is, you are free to make a request at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:57, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I think that it NOT a reliable source for that claim if every specialist work on Armenian architecture carefully AVOIDS stating that it was "the first church built in Armenia". See Wikipedia:Weight#Undue_weight. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:09, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying your view. Now you can take it to the WP:RSN, otherwise, your claim is groundless. What does Undue weight has to do with this? You have not presented any source which rejects this claim. Just because you think there have been earlier churches in Armenia doesn't make an Oxford book "dubious". --Երևանցի ^talk 20:24, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It is also called cherry picking. You are avoiding the fact that academic works dealing just with Armenian architecture do not state something as specific as "Etchmiadzin was the first church built in Armenia", instead choosing to take the information from a non-specialist source. The absence of this claim in specialist sources makes it dubious. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:48, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I'm quite surprised that the reliability of this source is questionable. The source has been cited 37 times by reliably sourced material including peer-reviewed articles. The publisher, Oxford University Press, appears to be reliable too. Even various peer-reviewed Book Reviews, which are always critical of any scholarly work, don't appear to even question this claim. Hence, I propose the lead to remain as is, unless a reliable source is provided that dismisses these claims outright due to sound reasons. We cannot call the current claim controversial unless we have an ample amount of sources that states that such a claim is controversial. Wikipedia editors are in no position to pass on such judgements.

At any rate, if there are concerns of reliability, I suggest RSN. If RSN considers this source unreliable, we'll make a proposition to solve this matter. For example, changing the word Church to Cathedral maybe a suitable compromise. Étienne Dolet (talk) 00:06, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

It is nothing to do with the source - it is the claim itself that is dubious. If this claim of it being the earliest church built were true, why is it not repeated in any books that deal only with the history of Armenian architecture or of this building? An encyclopedia is not a suitable single source for a claim if that claim is not repeated in any credible specialist sources. See Wikipedia:Weight#Undue_weight. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:43, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

As far as I see, through the minimal research I've conducted, this claim is indeed repeated many times by Armenian ([1][2][3][4]) and non-Armenian sources ([5]) alike. Étienne Dolet (talk) 04:28, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

It is up to Tiptoethrutheminefield to prove that the claim is controversial, or what he calls, "dubious". He bases this entire discussion on his assumptions. --Երևանցի ^talk 00:26, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

...and if he doesn't do that in 24 hours, I will remove the dubious tag from the article if there are no further objections. Étienne Dolet (talk) 17:40, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

I will let you do it. It is sad what could become an interesting article will contain trite low-grade wording like this, but that seems to be the way it must be. No serious commentary about the Etchmiadzin cathedral would use a silly phrase like "earliest church built in Armenia" because such a precise claim will always be unprovable (and also unlikely to be true given the existence of Christian communities in Armenia before its "official" conversion). Specialist academic sources would just say it is "the earliest known church in Armenia" or something similar. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:07, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Architectural influence

What sources say that the St. Thaddeus Monastery has been influenced by Etchmiadzin? Please add a citation.

And how is Քրիստոնյա Հայաստան հանրագիտարան [Christian Armenia encyclopedia] not reliable? Please do not arbitrarily add "dubious" tag to the Holy Apostles Church in Ani and then remove it, just because you think that way. I'm waiting for constructive responses. Thanks. --Երևանցի ^talk 18:51, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

The citation is on the main article - St. Thaddeus Monastery. Not everything needs a citation. There are no credible sources that would compare the design of the Church of the Apostles at Ani to the Etchmiadzin cathedral - it has a COMPLETELY different design - it is an inscribed rectangle, has no protruding apses, no pillars suppording a dome, has four corner chapels, and five domes.Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

It would be very helpful if you added citations. It will greatly help us to avoid further confusion. Yes, in fact, "everything needs a citation" on Wikipedia. Whether your description of the Holy Apostles Church in Ani is true or not is very much irrelevant here. In Wikipedia, we go by published sources and not by personal opinions. If you don't consider the mentioned source reliable, you are free to make a request at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. --Երևանցի ^talk 19:14, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Non-influence of Etchmiadzin plan: "this type of building was not very popular in Armenia", "Only one type of this church was built in the 7th century" from page 66 of the cited "Armenian Art" source. And from page 309, a more explicit statement: "It is actually surprising that the plan of this famous cathedral should not have been copied until the 19th century". Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:23, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the quotes. It doesn't mean, however, that the Holy Apostles Church in Ani isn't influenced by Etchmiadzin. --Երևանցի ^talk 20:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I know that its sounds like I am just repeating myself - but an encyclopedia is not a credible source unless there are specialist sources about Armenian architecture that can back it up by saying the same thing: stating this church was influenced by the design of Etchmiadzin. I can give you the names of 5 sources that are specialist works about Armenian architecture or about Ani, and which describe the Holy Apostles church, and none of them mention any architectural link between the Etchmiadzin cathedral and the Holy Apostles Church. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:25, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

The quote is taken from the article "Ani", which was written by Karen Matevosyan, a historian and a member of the Scientific Council of Matenadaran.[6] --Երևանցի ^talk 20:28, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. I know of him. I have no idea how he can come to such a conclusion (although a lot depends on the wording and on how detailed the article is). The key characteristics of Etchmiadzin's design (four apses that protrude out of the church body, and four freestanding pillars that support the dome) are missing from the design of the Holy Apostles church. However, I can cite you a half dozen sources that do not say that the Holy Apostles church was architecturally related to Etchmiadzin and they relate it to entirely different structures. So if the claimed connection is to be returned to the article, there has to be wording there to indicate that most sources disagree with such a conection Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 20:43, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

I can cite you a half dozen sources that do not say that the Holy Apostles church was architecturally related to Etchmiadzin this is the most absurd statement I've read in a while. I'm can also sure you can cite sources that do not cite the Ghazanchetsots Cathedral. So? What kind of logic is that? Just because other sources do not mention it, does not make it wrong.

and they relate it to entirely different structures If you can give one good source that ties Holy Apostles with another church type, I will cease this discussion. most sources is only one source, i.e. Thierry. Most articles I've read about Etchmiadzin do not even mention any of these churches. Does it mean they reject all this. Sahinian, for instance, does not even mention any Armenian church that has been influenced by Etchmiadzin in his articles. Does this mean that he rejects all? --Երևանցի ^talk 00:26, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I am starting to believe you know nothing about Armenian architecture - maybe you should restrict yourself to other articles. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 02:32, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

I see that much of the garbage is back, and more besides (and new useful content too - which is lost amid the stuff that should not be there) :( Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:57, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

A. Khatchatrian

The current version says "However, other researchers, such as A. Khatchatrian, were unconvinced and held that the original church had taken the form of a cross within a square perimeter."

Can you please take another look at the source? No other source mentions this. Are you sure this is not about the 5th century building, which is universally described as what Khatchatrian says? --Երևանցի ^talk 20:12, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

See "Medieval Armenian Architecture" by Christina Maranci, p200-207. Khatchatrian proposed that the 4thC church was rectangular in plan (i.e. not a basilica), with a single east apse contained within that rectangular form, and with four central pillars supporting a dome, and that the 5thC rebuilding added the protruding north, south, and west apses and an enlarged and now slightly protruding east apse. Maranci explores the problems with this theory (along with the problems with all the various theories) and the context of those theories within the themes that have influenced the study of Armenian Architecture. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 15:39, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

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Tsitsianov, 1804-1813

"During the Russo-Persian War (1804–13), Etchmiadzin was twice captured by the Russian troops led by General Pavel Tsitsianov, first in 1804 and then again in 1806." -- [7]

• "June 1804; Battle of Echmiadzin. Following the Russian invasion and capture of Ganjeh, Persian ruler Fath Ali Shah orders the governor of Azerbaijan, his 15-yearold son and heir apparent Prince Abbas Mirza, to assemble an army and defeat the Russians. The result is a three-day battle near Echmiadzin, the capital of Armenia. The able Abbas Mirza with 20,000 men forces the Russian army of 5,000 men led by General Paul Tsitsianov (Sisianoff) to withdraw." -- Tucker, Spencer C., ed. (2010). "Overview of 1800-1850: Chronology". A Global Chronology of Conflict: From the Ancient World to the Modern Middle East. ABC-CLIO. p. 1036

• "After an inconclusive encounter at Uch Kelisa (Echmiadzin), the Russians laid siege to Iravan (...)" -- Cronin, Stephanie, ed. (2013). Iranian-Russian Encounters: Empires and Revolutions since 1800. Routledge. p. 56

• "Late in June 1804, Ttsitsianov led fewer than (...) His first objective was the Armenian religious center at Echmiadzin, where he encountered Abbas's army (...) The battle was an Iranian victory in that the Russians failed to take the monastery and had to withdraw." -- Atkin, Muriel (1980). Russia and Iran, 1780-1828. University of Minnesota Press. p. 120

@Yerevantsi: You have single-handedly brought this article to GA. Therefore, I thought the least thing I could do, is making you aware of the small corrections I want to make in that section. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:16, 10 December 2017 (UTC)

Sure. These sources do seem to suggest that Tsitsianov did not, in fact, capture Ejmiatsin. --Երևանցի ^talk 12:31, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

 Done - LouisAragon (talk) 15:21, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

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