Talk:The Golden Rule (ethics)

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This article was nominated for deletion on 31 August 2007. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents 1 criticisms? 2 Hinduism reference 3 Christianity section 4 Is the article misnamed? 4.1 Requested move 5 The Opening Statement 6 Merged Norm of reciprocity into this article? 7 Satanism's perspective... 8 Muddled writing 9 Archaic language 10 It should still be called "Golden Rule" 11 Golden Rule should redirect here 12 Does Islam really believe in Golden Rule (after considering abrogatation of versers in Quran)? 12.1 No, it is among the most tolerant of religions in the world 13 Golden rule is not the tit-for-tat rule 14 The Golden Alliance 15 Mixed Chrono/Alpha format

[edit] criticisms?

Are there any widely accepted faults with this idea? I would like to know not only because most large articles have at least a small section of these, and because I really would just like to know. So far my internet quests have yielded no fruit. 68.228.80.106 (talk) 09:41, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, there are a large number of criticisms of the Golden Rule. I've started a new section on it, and have provided two links, that should serve as a basis for starting to flesh it out. K. Sargent (talk) 19:27, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The introduction currently includes what seems a murky statement that: "While similar those forms are not strictly the same as they differ in what to do with what you would like to be done to you but the other party would not like to be done upon it. Negative form does directly not contain that while positive form can exclude it indirectly with that you would like from others to check if you really like it, what is an example of using the golden rule in a context which makes it self-correcting, as argued in the criticisms section."

I've changed it to what I hope is a clearer explication: "These forms are not not strictly the same, though they seem to resonate. The difference is the adverb 'not'. This difference means that a term is missing to resolve the parent statements. To demonstrate, there are two options: 1). "Do not do to others what you would like done to you"; and, 2). "Do to others what you would not like done to you." More on the dissonance between these derived statements may be found in the criticisms section of this article." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.174.107.159 (talk) 02:55, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

It would be interesting to see a deeper explication- maybe in the criticisms section?

[edit] Hinduism reference

I added a reference for this passage

That one I love who is incapable of ill will, And returns love for hatred. [1].

The quotation in the article appears to be a very liberal interpretation. I cannot copy the text from the reference page but [2] gives another translation as:

One who is equal to friends and enemies, who is equipoised in honor and dishonor, heat and cold, happiness and distress, fame and infamy, who is always free from contaminating association, always silent and satisfied with anything, who doesn't care for any residence, who is fixed in knowledge and who is engaged in devotional service — such a person is very dear to Me.

Unless I am looking at the wrong place the quoted translation is a little suspect. -- Q Chris (talk) 08:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Christianity section

I think the Christianity section is a bit too long. And too many verses referenced that say "Love your neighbor" with no mention of reciprocity. I propose only the most relevant verses be included (esp. duplicates from different scrolls) Happinessiseasy (talk) 21:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

All the quoted passages do seem relevant to me, however. Perhaps part of the first paragraph can be cut out, however, with a briefer note that some OT passages on the GR can be found under the Judaism section further down?--ScottForschler (talk) 16:30, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Is the article misnamed?

The Golden Rule "Do unto others what you would have them do to you." is not a reciprocal equation. It is a imperative commandment. It should be distinguished from ideas like "Don't hit others because it will give them reason to hit you." The Golden Rule is rather, "Don't hit others, even if they hit you." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.139.190.35 (talk) 13:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. The Golden Rule does not require a pattern of reciprocity, an act of reciprocation for previous actions done to you, or an expectation of reciprocity. The only sense in which it is "reciprocal" is that you should turn your hope or desire about what others should do to you, back to them. To call this the ethic of reciprocity is misleading. "Golden Rule (morality)" would seem more accurate.--ScottForschler (talk) 00:04, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

This article used to be called "Golden Rule". The name change was made without discussion. IMO, it should be reversed. Paul B (talk) 10:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I concur, with ethic of reciprocity redirecting to a more correct article. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 13:58, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd support the move if for no other than the reason that the Golden Rule is the most common title. Given that "Golden Rule" has become a disambiguation page, we would have to rename it something like "Golden Rule (ethics)". That said, I am happy with the status quo, because it allows us to cover more ground than simply the Golden Rule. There is more to reciprocity than the Golden Rule. --Adoniscik^{(t, c)} 01:52, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

This article is more about 'the Golden Rule' than the ethic or reciprocity and 'The Golden Rule' is a more commonly used term.86.141.242.76 (talk) 13:33, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

The current title of the article, "Ethic of Reciprocity," is explained in the first two sentences of the article. Given that explanation, it is very different than what is commonly accepted as "the golden rule." Thus, the name of the article, in my humble opinion, should not be changed, i.e. it is not misnamed.Nan43 (talk) 02:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

It's not explained very well; the first sentence is not grammatical (the quote doesn't quite fit the introductory material), and the second merely describes general duties of justice. It's fine to have an article on general duties of justice, but the rest of the article (98% of it or so) talks about, not general duties of justice, but about the *golden rule*. Which is much more specific. We need an article on the golden rule of ethics, and this article is essentially it. If someone wants to move the first two sentences out of it and make a new article on the topic they promise to discuss but which the rest of this article does not deliver on, that's fine of course...--ScottForschler (talk) 20:14, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

• Support move Apart from the good reasons given above, I find that the phrase Golden Rule is far more common in the scholarly context of ethics than the current title - thousands of sources rather than hundreds. Colonel Warden (talk) 20:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

We've been discussing this for sometime. I'm not familiar with the voting or renaming procedures here; can anyone more experienced set this up?--ScottForschler (talk) 22:07, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Requested move

[edit] The Opening Statement

The opening statement, which reads "The ethic of reciprocity or the Golden Rule is a fundamental moral value which simply means 'treat others as you would like to be treated.' It is arguably the most essential basis for the modern concept of human rights," seems to be Christian specific, and excludes the broader connotation. What I have learned regarding this concept, in regard to religions overall, is that it is closely linked to the idea of justice. To reciprocate means to give in return. Justice is the assurance each receives what is due them (in the positive or negative). In fact, The Golden Rule has no expectation of return, and seems to be more in line with the ethic of hospitality. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 16:02, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't quite see how the opening is "Christian specific," but I also don't see what the GR has to do with the "modern concept of human rights." A rights-based ethic may be defended using the GR, but it could equally well lead to a non-rights based concept of justice, or to simply being spontaneously kind or generous, without any concept of whether other people have the "right" to such behavior. Alan Gewirth argues that a GR-like principle would lead to a strict concept of moral rights, but Kant, Singer, and many other philosophers who use the GR or similiar principles focus on maxims, utility, or other concepts, and view "rights" as derivitive. So I think this is just one person's interpretation, and we aren't told who, or how the connection is made. I vote to simply excise this phrase.--ScottForschler (talk) 19:54, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merged Norm of reciprocity into this article?

I believe a more complete article would exist if these two articles were merged. At present, the article is little more then a list of quotes philosophers and sacred texts, and these quotes selected on the wrong assumption that the Golden Rule is a definitive expression of reciprocity. --151.201.149.209 (talk) 01:57, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

I take that back. Review the list of linked articles on the Reciprocity disambiguation page. I'm looking at least seven of those articles that would be merged into one, and at least one other included a more complete explanation of the Golden Rule (See: Reciprocity (social and political philosophy)). --151.201.149.209 (talk) 02:02, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Satanism's perspective...

I don't know if this maybe should be put into the "criticisms" or the main section, but Anton LaVey included a satanic "Law of Retrubution" ("Do unto others as they do unto you") when he founded Satanism. Seeing as LaVeyan satanism is, more or less, a mockery of Christianity from opposing perspective of common human behavior, I think this deserves some mention... Thoughts? 83.191.131.70 (talk) 14:27, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Muddled writing

I move this sentence to the talk page:

Many assign the imperative commandment of Golden Rule as instruction for a positive only form of reciprocity.

This article's writing style is overly and unnecessarily complex for such a simple idea. I attempted to simplify the article.Ikip (talk) 11:18, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Archaic language

Any reason for all the thees and thous? Would it not be more sensible to quote the various scriptures in modern English?

I'd be happy to dig out modern translations for the Biblical quotes. Perhaps people familiar with the other sources would like to do likewise? UrsusMaximus (talk) 13:06, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] It should still be called "Golden Rule"

Is there some way to propose that the vote on the name was biased and should be reevaluated? All the real-world evidence shows that "Golden Rule" is the commonly accepted name, and recasting it "The Ethic of Reciprocity" shows anti-Christian bias and elitism from the 3 Wikipedia admins who decided to overturn hundreds of years of history. Even using the "Find Sources" links provided at the top of this talk page, one finds only roughly 12,500 results for "Ethic of Reciprocity" but 2,480,000 results for "Golden Rule." Even in the article itself, "Golden Rule" shows up 45 times while "Ethic of Reciprocity" is only used 7 times.

To address the two points that came up in the vote:

First, no one is disputing that the concepts behind the Golden Rule do exist and have existed outside of Christianity, but the Christian version is by far the most well known. And yes, while I'm sure one could find a good sample of people in the world who have never heard of the term "Golden Rule," you can be damn sure the same sample has never heard of the "Ethic of Reciprocity." The contrast in prevalence is so significant that it's hardly worth discussing. The term "Ethic of Reciprocity" is fetal at best but "Golden Rule" is well-established and widespread. It is either naivety, anti-Christian bias, or some combination thereof to suggest that EoR is the dominant term.

Secondly, the fact that other, obscure definitions of the term exist is irrelevant, as none of the alternative definitions are well known except by specialists in the particular fields where the alternatives are defined. In short, the alternative definitions are utterly insignificant. The fact that these "homonym" concepts exist still doesn't change the fact that "Golden Rule" is still the dominant and most widely used term to refer to the Golden Rule/EoR.

Supplanting the common usage of the term is nothing more than a seemingly anti-Christian method of rewriting history by 3 elite Wikipedia admins. Put it to a truly democratic vote with more than such a puny sample size and the result will become immediately clear. 3 strange Wikipedia users should not be given the reins to slowly rewrite history. Soapergem (talk) 05:18, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I had no trouble finding this article using the term with which I was most familiar using my religious foreground and background: "Golden Rule." Once I read the first sentence, my disorientation evaporated immediately. (Although I expected to see the normal subtitle

redirected from "The Golden Rule"

The title seems to me to be not anti-Christian, but rather _____ (what's the word?) pan-religious and secular. I have no problem with the title because the article seems to survey many beliefs, both religious and secular. I'm very happy to give up my rights of ownership (as a member of my protestant Presbyterian culture) and share this ethic with my fellow human beings. Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 23:25, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

1. "Golden Rule" is not a Christian term, it can be be applied to all religions, and in fact has been on a famous poster http://www.victoriamultifaith.com/images/Golden-Rule.gif

2. I have never in my life heard of "the ethic of reciprocity" and I wouldn't even know what that means if I heard that term and hadn't read this article. In fact I don't think anyone of any religion knows what that term means unless they read this article, where as everyone knows what Golden Rule means regardless of their religion.

3. No religion has an official name for their ethic but the most widely used term in the english language for this ethic is unquestionably "The Golden Rule".

Clearly this article should be called Golden Rule. At the very least Golden Rule should redirect here instead of a list of things no one has ever heard of. -Words in sanskrit (talk) 05:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Reading this discussion leads me to believe there is a consensus to move the article. 1. The majority of registered users contributing to the talk page who took a position on either side since Sept. 2008 were in favor of the name The Golden Rule. This majority becomes more exaggerated in recent posts. 2. Wikipedia: Naming Conventions states that articles are normally titled using the most common English- language name of the person or thing that is the subject of the article. The first sentence of the article reads that the ethic of reciprocity is more commonly known as the Golden Rule. 3. Naming conventions also mentions that search engine testing sometimes helps decide which of alternative names is more common. The Golden Rule captures 1,670,000 results. Ethic of Reciprocity has only 576,000. If you only include Google Scholar the difference becomes 78,300 to 474. 4. Naming the article Golden Rule (Ethics) solves multiple issues pointed out during discussion concerning multiple uses of the phrase Golden Rule. Please, if there is significant opposition to the move, advertise in Wikipedia:RM. I do not want to start an edit war.Savetheted (talk) 23:39, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry didn't see this sooner, but do want to affirm I agree with this change and will defend it if necessary. :-) Maybe it's time to archive earlier discussions? CarolMooreDC (talk) 14:31, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Golden Rule should redirect here

The vast majority of people searching "Golden Rule" are looking for this page, not "Golden Rule savings rate", "Ronen's golden rule for cluster radioactivity", or even the ever popular "Samuel M. Jones, a.k.a. "Golden Rule" Jones, mayor of Toledo, Ohio, 1897". This page is far more sought after than all the disambiguation pages combined and redirecting people there is a joke.

Furthermore no one has ever heard the term "ethic of reciprocity" before this page was created. In addition, as Section #4 points out "reciprocity" does not properly describe one of the main concepts on this page. On top of this arbitrary title being a misleading hassle to most users it's also inacurate.

Make Golden Rule redirect here, it may cause a few peope looking for flights or insurance an extra hassle but most people will remain unharmed. Do unto others, right? -Words in sanskrit (talk) 05:43, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Until you made a point of it, I never bothered to read the disambiguation page. My mouse pointer clicked right on the page that I wanted without even bothering to look at the others. True, I had to go through the extra step of the disambiguation page, but like many things in life, it was a small price to pay. I don't mind sharing the phrase Golden Rule with these other things and I don't mind the title of "Ethic of Reciprocity." If anything, it adds to my understanding. Danglingdiagnosis (talk) 23:05, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Does Islam really believe in Golden Rule (after considering abrogatation of versers in Quran)?

Is it not true that Islam does not believe in Golden Rule as it looks at the world as "us & them", "believers & non-believers" and instructs believers to slay non-believers and says it is the sure way of reaching paradise? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.92.222.28 (talk) 16:23, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

[edit] No, it is among the most tolerant of religions in the world

History shows it is highly tolerant. It is only the extremists who have given itthis reputation. But there are extremists for all religions, just look at the history of Christianity, the Inquisitions, etc. Please don't spread such incoherent gossip among our pages. And what does abrogatation mean? TonyClarke (talk) 18:25, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

It is a controversial issue whether there is Golden Rule in islam or not. The main quote is from The Farewell Sermon. If read in context, it clearly is from a paragraph where Muhammad says how to treat other Muslims. The same applies to most other quotes. At least a section dealing with this controversy should be added. --82.181.82.81 (talk) 21:49, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe a sentence could be added - preferably from WP:RS and not from Muhammad. But then others also could look for evidence other people's golden rules only applied to those of their own religion. In fact, if two examples are found, that should be in the lead. Which certainly tarnishes the golden rule. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:40, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Golden rule is not the tit-for-tat rule

Reading the first paragraph of the article could give the impression that the Golden Rule is the same as the tit-for-tat rule. And I think the article out to be names the Golden Rule rather than its current obscure and technical name. 89.242.93.56 (talk) 13:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree that without a source saying they are the same that should be out. Also agree on name but new to article and have to research why that was done. CarolMooreDC (talk) 01:28, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] The Golden Alliance

I have created the web site: The Golden Alliance at http://www.TheGoldenAlliance.com which is dedicated to providing encouragement and solutions to people who choose to live by the golden rule. If you believe it adds value to this article, I would be thrilled to see it added as an external link. Thanks! --Lbeaumont (talk) 19:08, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Mixed Chrono/Alpha format

This starts with 2 historical listings, then goes to alphabetical. It should be one way or the other, preferably historical by rough time of start of each ethical/religious view. I'll do it, hearing no sensible objections. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:06, 8 November 2009 (UTC)