Talk:Eugène Terre'Blanche

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Reliable sources[edit]

On June 17, 2001, Terre'Blanche was sentenced to six years in prison, of which he served three years, for assaulting a petrol station worker and the attempted murder of a security guard in 1996.

This is not sourced, nor are the people named, nearly impossible to verify. Was he really sentenced on both counts ? Very badly written. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.217.180 (talk) 00:36, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Come back in 1-2 hours. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC) that took me less than a minute. Next time, please read WP:SOFIXIT. thanks. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:45, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pointing to newspaper articles is really not very professional, I don't think you quote the names either.

Use this instead, names victims:

http://www.justice.gov.za/trc/media/1999/9910/p991018b.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pandries (talk • contribs) 00:53, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

do it yourself Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 01:02, 8 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So polite. The answer is NO. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.143.217.180 (talk) 21:22, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Quality of this article[edit]

This is the most pathetic article that I have ever read in my life. It is completely biased. It's just... pathetic. No offence, person who wrote those crap. --Scotteh 16:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The above comment breaches civility. If you feel it is biased, then be bold and fix it. Just observe NPOV and other Wikipedia policies in your contributions.
I will also comment that the article is poorly organized and needs to be reworked. --Richard 18:47, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Ancestry[edit]

It is not clear which parts refer to Eugène (the one who fell off the horse) and which refer to Estienne, the progenitor. Also, should the horse incident be mentioned? --Lionelbrits 00:57, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed. Zaian 09:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hey all, just added a section on Louis Theroux. If this is erroneous, please edit =]

I was told that TB once said at a meeting that some of his ancestors had died at the Battle of Blood River. Since no whites perished at that battle, this can only mean that at least one of his ancestors was black. Tis a pity such a statement won't ever make it to the Wikipedia page about him. -- leuce (talk) 09:58, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It could only go in if there is a reliable source that states he said such a thing or which proves he had any non-white ancestry. Jim Michael (talk) 00:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It could also mean that he was lying.--Totorotroll (talk) 09:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Judging by the pictures I've seen of him, I wouldn't be surprised at all if it turns out he did have non-white ancestry. That would mean he'd have something in common with this guy. Stonemason89 (talk) 22:25, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Back in his heyday, it was hard to look at him and see a white man; he looked like a fair-skinned mulatto. At least from certain angles. He was certainly more African-looking than Mariah Carey for example.
It's not uncommon for racists to somehow belong to the groups they victimize: Reinhard Heydrich, Adolf Hitler. They belonged, or they were accused of belonging, or they secretly suspected they belonged, and they reacted by attacking the detested element within themselves. Varlaam (talk) 01:20, 8 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Supremacist?[edit]

Should he not be introduced as a white supremacist? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.213.86 (talk) 22:22, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He was a separatist rather than a supremacist. Jim Michael (talk) 21:55, 23 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then he should be introduced as that, instead of as a " South African Political leader" Well known newspapers such as the Wall Street Journal covered his death introducing him as a White Supremacist leader. The man tried to prevent the end of Apartheid, that in itself proves he was a White Supremacist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.11.169.212 (talk) 00:40, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I will take out "political leader" and rephrase it. It wasn't in the article until recently anyways. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:50, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
What his actions "prove" is irrelevant. I have attempted to give a summary of the controversial labels given him. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 01:08, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
He was a separatist; he wanted part of SA to be a separate state for Boers. Therefore the lead should describe him as a separatist. Many people called him a supremacist, but he didn't want whites to have black slaves; he wanted racial separation, not dominance within the same state. Jim Michael (talk) 17:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
(a) reliable sources refer to him as a white supremacist, and (b) of course he was. But the criteria here is (a). Zaian (talk) 20:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to be an American term, and therefore not applicable. TFD (talk) 00:17, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Chronology of Jani Allan affair[edit]

I'm just questioning here. The article states that the Jani Allan "affair" came to light in 1992, but it is mentioned in the Broomfield documentary which was released in 1991. Is there is confusion of years here? --Delsen 13:05, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Legally, it is still termed an 'alleged' affair. The reason that 1992 is cited is because that is when many details of the alleged affair came to light, many witnesses testified and gave details in Jani Allan's libel case against the broadcaster of Broomfield's film, Channel 4.

But the links with Allan were already causing trouble within the ANC well before the 92 libel case. For example, an extremist bomber from an offshoot AWB organisation, planted a bomb outside Allan's apartment in 1989. There were also some requests for his resignation between 1988 and 1992, with the alleged affair being cited as one of multiple reasons. Teatreez (talk) 15:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requesting confirmed editor edit article to reflect such —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahadjama (talk • contribs) 00:44, 24 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Bophuthatswana defeat?[edit]

The statement that the AWB was defeated in Bophuthatswana is not correct. This is also not what is written in the cited report of the Tebutt commission: http://www.polity.org.za/polity/govdocs/commissions/1998/tebbutt/tebbutt7.html#8 --41.17.107.132 (talk) 20:30, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Afrikaans independent community[edit]

I seem to remember that the AWB created some sort of white-only community in the mid to late 1980s. Way off? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.226.104.225 (talk) 18:03, 12 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you mean Orania? Stonemason89 (talk) 20:15, 21 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Conviction[edit]

His conviction was rather suspect. In the one case it was a criminal itself that accused him in the other he was actually helping an injured person getting to hospital that then turned against him. --41.18.179.200 (talk) 18:00, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Got a reliable source for that? Zaian (talk) 18:40, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Translation[edit]

I think "Weerstandsbeweging" translates to "resistance movement" but a Dutch speaker should check that. It's worth including a translation in the article. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, it's Afrikaans, not Dutch. Secondly, this article is about TerreBlanche. Explanation of name is given at the article about the AWB Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 20:17, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, the other article confirms the translation. I think it should be added to this article for clarity; doing so also makes the article more self-contained per WP:TPA. 66.127.52.47 (talk) 22:51, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead sentence[edit]

The lead sentence refers to Terre'Blanche "pushing for an Afrikaner secessionist state within South Africa". This is a very limited summary. In the 1980s and early 1990s he opposed all reforms to apartheid, and threatened to go to war to maintain white rule in South Africa. Anyone want to amend the lead paragraph? Zaian (talk) 07:06, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Easter Saturday[edit]

This man was killed on Easter Saturday. This day is becoming a traditional South African day to murder politicians. The date was either a coincidence or not a coincidence.

Jim Michael, is it disputed that 3 April 2010 was Easter Saturday? Does it have to be relevant for me to post that? Should I go and remove the statement that Chris Hani was killed on Easter Saturday in his bio? Chris_Hani#Assassination

I thought my posts would be improved, but it simply got reverted. This seems like relevant observation. Squiose (talk) 20:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Unless a reliable source says it isn't a coincidence, we must assume that it is. In any event, this is a global encyclopedia, albeit one written in the English language, and the concept of "Easter" may not be culturally relevant to some of our readers, so it's better, I feel, just to leave it as the date, which is neutral in that regard. Rodhullandemu 20:35, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
So you say that the Chris Hani article is wrong as well? I believe culturally relevant to the readers should take a back-seat to relevance to the case, as Easter is celebrated, and is indeed a national holiday in the country where the murder occurred. We could always link Easter Saturday for the culturally irrelevant folks, couldn't we? Squiose (talk) 21:16, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe it should mention Easter unless a reliable source has commented on the relevance of this. Meanwhile, trying to draw events together to explain what appear to be coincidences is not permitted here unless someone else has commented on it. "No original research" is not a negotiable policy. Rodhullandemu 21:22, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This is too early, and at this point speculation. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 21:29, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
To say it that Easter Sat is a traditional day to murder politicians is unsubstantiated; two cases that had nothing to do with religion do make a trend. I don't see any reason to mention Easter Sat on this article or Hani's, as there is no evidence, nor I believe any suggestion, that either murder was connected to Easter Sat or Christianity. Several murders happen every day in South Africa; the vast majority of murderers do not plan to kill in line with the Christian calendar. In the case of a non-Christian killing a Christian in a religious attack in which the killer planned it for Easter weekend for extra publicity, it would be relevant, but it seems almost certain that religion was not an issue in this murder. Jim Michael (talk) 23:49, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
BTW, if you want to get the terminology right, Easter Saturday is actually the Saturday after Easter. The Saturday between Good Friday and Easter Sunday is Holy Saturday. Zaian (talk) 06:06, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Link to South African farm attacks[edit]

Somebody is trying to link his death to the article on farm-attacks. I think that's a bit of a stretch... yes, he was killed on his farm, but no, linking to the article on the general issue is a coatrack and undue. Every report we have says it was a wage-dispute. Give me some evidence that this was a racially motivated hate-crime-style attack (or whatever you want to call it). Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:17, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian categorises it as a farm attack: [1]. So does the BBC[2]. So does opposition leader Mangosuthu Buthelezi[3]. 19:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jngt (talk • contribs)
It is relevant to link to the farm attack article. That article doesn't claim that all farm attacks are racially motivated hate crimes. Zaian (talk) 19:24, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
OK. Conceded. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 19:30, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Death notice[edit]

Is it really useful to give seven different sources for the death? It is not a contested fact, I suggest to take six of them out. --Pgallert (talk) 10:13, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not all of the info stated is in each one of the refs. Jim Michael (talk) 00:14, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Politician or political activist?[edit]

Both terms are used in this article to describe him. Did he receive a regular salary for his political position? If so, he was a politician; if not, he was an activist. Jim Michael (talk) 00:19, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

well, he was a member of the Herstigte Nasionale Party, ran for office, but never made it. I'm not sure but I think that counts as politician, albeit only for a short while. No? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 00:37, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do good sources call him a politician, activist or what? --hippo43 (talk) 09:36, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Birth year: 1941 or 1944?[edit]

AWB-leader - Eugène Ney Terre'Blanche. --Sukarnobhumibol (talk) 07:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The AWB sometimes creates modern myths and such. All sources say he was 69... do the math :) Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 07:17, 7 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I can calculate... :) --Sukarnobhumibol (talk) 03:31, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
WHEN DID HIS WIFE DIE? THE RUMOR SAYS SHE COMMITED SUICIDE, IS THAT TRUE??? CONFIRM PLEASE
a) we're not deaf, don't yell b) don't write into others' comments c) we'll find out, chill. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 01:26, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
???? --Sukarnobhumibol (talk) 05:25, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
wasn't you, was it? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:52, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I thought, you said that. --Sukarnobhumibol (talk) 08:36, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Terre'Blanche's widow Martie is alive. I'm not aware of him ever having been married to anyone else. Jim Michael (talk) 02:05, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Restore?[edit]

The following was removed on the basis that it was a copyvio and uncited:

Terre'Blanche and the AWB were seldom out of the media during the 1980s and first half of the 1990s. Terre'blanche's powerful oratory and apocalyptic images of race war often featured, with the image of heavily armed AWB members parading in uniform, sometimes hooded. However, this image of the rise of the far right was not the only image projected by the media, which increasingly ridiculed Terre'Blanche and his supporters. [citation needed]

I suspect it was actually a sentence from Wikipedia which was subsequently used in the media, not a sentence from the media which was copied by Wikipedia. I think this should be restored in full. Zaian (talk) 06:20, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling error[edit]

hello, in the section 'Death', 2 paragraphs from the last, it says:

ANC leaders later announced a temporary ban on the sining of the song[52].

I propose:

singing rather than sining. 81.96.176.14 (talk) 17:39, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Jim Michael (talk) 00:45, 10 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Incompleteness and serious omission[edit]

In the third paragraph an important alleged motivation for the murder was omitted:

Alleged motivations for the murder have included a pay dispute, sexual assault[2], and racist motives, triggered by the song "kill the boer" recently promoted by Julius Malema[33]of the ANCyouth organisation.

Please revise!!

I don't think the lead is the place to air the latest allegations. Speculation about pay disputes, assaults, Malema, etc. are covered in detail later in the article. I've removed them from the lead. Zaian (talk) 08:26, 13 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"allegedly"[edit]

The intro says "allegedly by two of his labourers over a wage dispute". Has there been a conviction? Was the motive determined? If so, "allegedly" should either be moved ("allegedly over a wage dispute") or taken out entirely. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 09:54, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Anti-Semitic?[edit]

Was he ever an anti-semite? If he was, it'd make it especially ironic that Pamela Geller was apparently a supporter of him. [4] Stonemason89 (talk) 22:28, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

He was not, Terre'Blanche was a passive supporter Israel due to Israel's extensive support of the South African apartheid government. By passive support I mean he never bothered to talk about Jews. 74.64.22.193 (talk) 20:28, 5 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Reversion of add to lead[edit]

I just read through the BBC article, and I agree with Seb az, that it doesn't say what Blue Danube claims. The article does say, "But the far-right movement's secretary general, Andre Visagie, said Mr Terreblanche's killing had political overtones." However, that's simply Visagie's opinion. Making the statement in Wikipedia's neutral voice makes it sound like the connection is widely accepted. Now, theoretically we could attribute the claim specifically to Visagie, but I don't think that would meet WP:DUE for the lead; it could, conceivably, go into the body of the article itself. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:05, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then check out this source, it is impossible to read this article and make any mistake about it: these are "criminally motivated" murders committed by black laborers against white landowners as revenge for abuse. We can all exclude the part about Kurt Helfer's claim to understanding the goal of the murders, because that's just his claim, but the rest of the article is clear. If I restore the information using this link, will it be blithely reverted again? Blue Danube (talk) 06:19, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(See also reply on my talkpage) Yes, I will revert again, and I will start issuing warnings for WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 06:53, 29 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(See also reply on your talkpage) No, not this time, because I rewrote it to be a foolproof representation of the new source. And if you revert now, it will be instantly clear to anyone that you are simply on a "revert spree" vendetta against my efforts to put verifiable facts on this page in a prominent place where they belong. This man's murder has gigantic political consequences and you are merely trying to divorce this article from that reality with any continued reversions. Blue Danube (talk) 01:26, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I tried rephrasing it to match the source. One thing I felt necessary was to move the "wage dispute" out of the sentence with the reference, since that article doesn't mention that at all. I also tried to keep a little of the context while still keeping it neutral. I'm not 100% satisfied (it still sounds a little "clunky" to me), but it seems better. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:28, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
There is no "agenda", quit spewing. Qwyrxian's edit makes it more or less acceptable, your edit, on the other hand, once again misrepresented the source. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 04:33, 30 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Homosexual not in article but in reports[edit]

How come there is no reference to this: Homosexual links?--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 10:05, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Articles normally only cover material based on some finding; that link contains only the reporting of someone's speculation. Johnuniq (talk) 10:12, 11 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Sexually molested" is not factual[edit]

The article mentions:"His body was found on the bed... naked below the waist and sexually molested.[53][54][55][56][57][58][59] Speculation that Terre'Blanche had sexually assaulted one or both of the accused was raised in certain publications.[60][61][62]"

There is no proof of this and so it cannot be used as fact. I ask this part be removed due to lack of facts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CreativelySpecialised (talk • contribs) 13:46, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're right.  Done Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 > haneʼ 14:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Great. Thanx. CreativelySpecialised (talk) 13:15, 31 October 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The defense at the trial made a case that the semen found on him was washed and the polcie work was botchesd...which was a pretty strong case that the judge took against the poor proscecution effort. Although it may be of note in this racial case that the prosecurot spokesman was black (probs the prosecurot to, i dont know)(Lihaas (talk) 19:15, 22 May 2012 (UTC)).[reply]

RfC[edit]

Light bulb iconBAn RfC: Which descriptor, if any, can be added in front of Southern Poverty Law Center when referenced in other articles? has been posted at the Southern Poverty Law Center talk page. Your participation is welcomed. – MrX 16:41, 22 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

rfc: founder[edit]

should this version be http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eug%C3%A8ne_Terre%27Blanche&oldid=608091158 (which describes him as the founder of awb) or this http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eug%C3%A8ne_Terre%27Blanche&oldid=608068081 (which declares him merely as a first executive? 27.96.33.235 (talk) 27.96.33.235 (talk) 19:23, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

discuss here 27.96.33.235 (talk) 19:24, 11 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Question What does the source say? Balaenoptera musculus (talk) 12:07, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

see http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eug%C3%A8ne_Terre%27Blanche&oldid=608091158 there is a source there, and it is reliable not like the sources of the second version 95.199.210.43 (talk) 14:18, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Copying something I wrote at an editor's talk page. Arthur Kemp's book is self-published (Ostara is his and he's also used lulu.com for it I believe) and IMHO shouldn't be used as a source unless you can convince people at WP:RSN. Other "Wikis" can be used to find sources but of course not as sources. This Guardian obituary says "When the imposing Terre'Blanche and six other diehard Afrikaner racists conceived the Afrikaner Weerstandsbeweging (AWB, Afrikaner resistance movement) in 1970," - that can definitely be used. Two more are [http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/south-africas-terreblanche-hacked-to-death-1935557.html and [5]. Dougweller (talk) 15:08, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Opening line[edit]

@Rockypedia: I noticed that you recently changed the description of Terre'Blanche in the opening sentence from "South African politician" to "white supremacist South African politician". I agree that a change is needed – "South African politician" isn't really that informative, and thus not really the greatest lead sentence. "White supremacist South African politician" is better, but I think it can be improved further. Terre'Blanche was certainly a white supremacist, but his white supremacy was secondary to (or a subset of) his Afrikaner nationalism. His white supremacy seems to be played up in UK and US media (probably because it makes for better headlines), but I think in the South African media and in academic circles his Afrikaner nationalism is what is emphasised. I think Wikipedia should strive to be more in line with academic sources, so I've changed the lead sentence accordingly (while still mentioning Terre'Blanche's white supremacy in the first paragraph). I've also changed "politician" to just "leader" (given he was never elected to political office), and removed a few of the references to avoid citation overkill (one source is sufficient for statements that aren't likely to be challenged). IgnorantArmies (talk) 05:02, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I disagree, and not for the reason you might think. Focusing on what South African media thinks of him is a pretty clear violation of Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias - if you read that project page, the goal here is to strive for a worldwide view of the subject, not just the South African view. It's been established that secondary sources around the world viewed Terre'Blanche as a white supremacist first - the sources that you removed as being overkill. I also don't think those should've been removed, but that's another discussion waiting to happen.
Anyway, it seems that he's got to be described as a "white supremacist" in the opening line, as that's his defining trait the world over - the last sentence of that first paragraph should be where it's mentioned that "in the South African media and in academic circles his Afrikaner nationalism is what is emphasised" - if you can find a source for that statement. If you can't, then it's WP:OR and it has to go. I certainly didn't see anything like that when I was looking for sources on him. I'm going to adjust the lead accordingly; see what you think. Rockypedia (talk) 07:49, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Further to that, [http://www.amren.com/features/2013/05/when-patriotism-meets-conservatism/ The American Renaissance article] used as a source in the article makes for interesting reading (I'm aware that AmRen is a white nationalist site). The article's author seems to think Terre'Blanche was fighting for "all whites" in South Africa against "all blacks", when in reality he hated English-speaking whites just as much as (if not more than) blacks. It's very naive (and Anglocentric) of the author to characterise the ethnic situation in South Africa as just "blacks vs. whites", and more evidence (IMHO) that "Afrikaner nationalist" is the best description for Terre'Blanche. IgnorantArmies (talk) 05:14, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I hadn't seen that article, or even that AmRen was used as a source. I don't believe that a majority of editors would consider it a reliable source, though, so any inferences drawn from that "evidence", besides being WP:OR to begin with, are pretty much out the window when the source is considered. Rockypedia (talk) 07:49, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I also added back in the two newspaper citations - as you said, citation overkill should be avoided for statements that aren't likely to be challenged, but the description as a white supremacist (prominently featured in both those sources) has been challenged just in the last 48 hours, so I don't see removing them as a good move. Rockypedia (talk) 08:01, 3 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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