Talk:Euro-Trance

Producers

I was wondering... why do producers/project initiators need to be in the list? They can be on the bands' pages, if any... I also recommend we use the artists' stage names instead of their real names, those can also be on their personal page. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems a better choice.Byeee 16:27, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Prominent Artists

While most of the artists mentioned sertainly deserve their place in the "main" artist list, i question why some are on the list? For instance "Future Trance United", a collaboration between a lot of the other artists listed there with only one release. Also, Floorfilla, which i would consider an italodance artist, Baracuda, who is not really that prominent either, DJ Dean who as far as i know produces hard trance, and SveN-R-G who is already on the list on his more "main" alias. Artists i've never heard of includes DJ Toxic and "Caater".

I removed some of them. Hasbone 19:10, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

References

Please, find at least some reliable sources stating that this style even exists. 62.78.153.171 20:06, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

- It doesn't exist as a music style, but unfortunatelly do exist as a term. Is a fake UK term, to describe various non UK trance-like (commercial) hits. Poland and Italy also use it. In a way is like the situation with the made-up term "eurodance". In the USA they named all the eurohouse and new beat hits of the early 90s as "eurodance" and they start selling them there. UK the last decade has a problem with dance music, so they import stuff from Europe. They named various music styles as "euro-trance" and that's how the term appeared.

Please someone that knows, do a revert back to the article and let's have a discussion. (Labrokratis 14:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC))

This is just bullshit..

This article is just terrible.. Markus Schulz, Deepsky, Gabriel & Dresden etc. has NOTHING to do with "euro-trance" in any way.. Euro-trance = Euro-dance, so just delete this article (or link it to "euro-dance") and list Pulsedriver, Cascada, Groove Coverage etc.. in the article about euro-dance.. to mention names like those (cascada etc.) together with the word trance is just a disgrace..

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Answer: Like it or not, the term exists. My description is not far from yours:

"Euro-Trance" is a retrospective term that first used on the UK, during the spring of 2002, by UK's MTV Dance. It was used to describe all the "trance" - like European imports for the UK market, especially those recorded in Germany, Nederlands and Belgium. The term was never accepted by the rest Europeans, with the exception of Poland and parts of Italy (because of the popularity of MTV Italy).

At the same time, I, a European, don't accept the term "Eurodance". It's as fake and generic as "Eurotrance".

So, if the term "Eurodance" has a place on wikipedia, then so the term "Eurotrance". (Labrokratis 11:00, 30 May 2007 (UTC))

Both Eurodance and Eurotrance terms, are retrospective made up terms!

As a European, I can't agree on this description: "Euro-Trance is a hybrid of Eurodance and Hard Trance music incorporating hardstyle bass drums and trance elements"

It is silly from many parameters: I'll try to analyse it:

1 - What is that "Euro Trance" term? I never heard of British Trance, American Trance, Australian Trance. So, why "Euro Trance"? Why a so "generic" name? What that represents?

I explain that later.

2 - "hybrid of Eurodance and Hard Trance": First of all, why you have it for granted that the term "Eurodance" exists and everybody knows about it? Because they have marketed this term in the U.S.A.? We, the Europeans, never used this term to describe one music style. Only recently we start using it to describe the overall existance of European Dance Music the last 40 years...

Example of the european use of the term: "What is this kind of music? It is Eurodance (European Dance music). It is called Euro - House.

For the Americans, "Eurodance" was/is the term to describe the early 90s Eurohouse and New Beat imports years later, in the mid 90s, to the USA markets, in a form of compilation CDs. It's a made up term, a fake term.

Personally I can testify the first use of term "eurodance", back in the late 1988. From what I recall, MTV Europe back in 1988, aired "Braun European top 20". VJ Christiana Backer use to be the presenter. The show also aired on MTV US at the time. They use to broadcast charts from all over Europe. Beyond that, they had "rock charts", "dance charts", "pop charts". Christiana Backer frequently said: "Let's see now the eurodance charts". The title of the charts was: "European Dance Charts". Why she said "Eurodance"? Probably because at the time, in the UK, there was also a music style called "Eurobeat". It was the SWA productions, marketed as Hi-NRG in USA. Eurobeat was british and it was dance. So the rest commercial dance productions at the time, was "eurodance". So, what the Americans say and stand for the term "Eurodance" is simply only their side of the story. And every time a European tries to add their point of view regarding the term "eurodance", an american pops up and say something like "you are an idiot" and revert the article.

Regarding "Hard Trance", yeap that exists as a term. But it is a GENERAL term again. Also, "Euro Trance" is not a dark music style. Hard Trance has a Dark Side. So, how it is possible "Euro Trance" to be a crossover of what the Americans describe as "Eurodance" and "Hard Trance"? If you know about those music styles, you lough with such "descriptions"!

3 "incorporating hardstyle bass drums and trance elements"

Say what????? "Hardstyle"? "Bass Drums"? Those are generic terms, used to describe music elements present on many music styles! The wide term of "Euro Trance" include hits with such elements, but also other elements like melody and vocals! So, the description is not correct without adding those elements!

ANYWAY: THE POINT IS THAT:

Both terms (Eurodance / Eurotrance) are fake and made up. Regarding the "term" EUROTRANCE, I can testify that MTV UK/IRE used it back in 2002 to describe all the commercial "trance-like" non UK hits , that imported on UK back then.

They made up a "TOP 100 of EUROTRANCE TRACKS". That "countdown" had plenty progressive trance/house, uplifting trance/house, vocal trance, epic trance, even pumping house hits.

Since that was the first and ONLY official use of this term, and some people since then use it, we have to point it out here in Wikipedia.org

Like it or not, this is the situation with this term.

"Euro-trance" is a made up term by VIACOM UK, to market the - non UK produced- european imports of the commercial trance-like hits on the UK. The source of those hits and videos? MTV2POP (a german channel), TMF Nederland and VIVA germany. All those channels became related with Viacom UK at the time.

There is a "legend", very popular among the Viacom UK stuffers: When TMF UK appeared on the UK market, they used the German MTV2POP graphics, titles, etc. Accidently, the full playlist of ODC40 from MTV2POP end up on TMF UK as well. ODC40 was a very popular dance countdown show on the German MTV2POP channel at the time. MTV UK, decided to make MTV DANCE a 24Hour channel, but they didn't have current material to broadcast. People hated to see R'N'B' and Rap on MTV Dance. So, they used the playlist of ODC40 plus some trance like hits that had some success or even appearance on the British market, and they made up the "Top 100 of eurotrance" which became VERY popular and broadcasted at leat 10 times the next year! That is how groups like Milk Inc, Ian Van Dahl, Lasgo, Paffendorf, Brooklyn Bounce and Kernkraft 400 became part of "Euro Trance".

Like it or not, the term exists. If you have a better description of the term than mine, then post it.

Eurotrance is a TERM not a music style. The same we can say for Eurodance

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Eurotrance is a name that is generaly applied to music when people have no idea what it is due to ignorance. It is a term used like techno is used by people who dont know what goes into a genre to name anything that has a synthesizer in it.

It is also used by people who listen to eurodance to name the the trance equivelent of eurodance. That is incorrect however because the trance version of eurodance is handz up.

also Eurodance is the alternative name to euro house. yeah it originated in the the us but it makes more sence to use it then it does to use eurohouse because it can have so many characteristics that house has and yet falls into several other genres and can abandon 100% of houses characteristics and still be eurodance. Eurodance is more a type of hi-nrg disco then it is house. So I think eurodance is a more fitting name than eurohouse.

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—Preceding unsigned comment added by Zenithsonzai (talk • contribs) 00:09, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Hands Up

hi !

i just wanted to say that in germany the style "Euro trance" doesnt exist ! that style of music is called "Hands Up" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.177.34.126 (talk) 15:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

(Labrokratis 10:49, 30 May 2007 (UTC))

Yea, i think Hands Up needs to be pulled out into its own page Rgs258 (talk) 03:35, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Like there is said. Hands Up is the only REAL term for this kind of music. In Europe there is no that kind of term like Euro-Trance. Guest 01:13, 13 October 2009 (UTC+2) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.114.144.195 (talk)

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BetacommandBot 04:41, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Needs attention

Alright, this article needs a lot of attention from an expert, as there is too much of a mixup, especially between the european genres of trance (epic trance, prog trance, etc) and the european genres of dance ("hands up", i.e most of the artists under notable artists).

anyone add the tag? I don't know the code for it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.27.234.9 (talk) 21:33, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Progressive Trance

There's a kind of contradiction in that Progressive Trance can be considered a Euro-Trance genre...but clearly has no relation with the Euro-Trance described in this article. In fact....pretty much all prominent Trance genre's (except maybe hard or Psy) can be thought of as Euro-Trance since they were all developed in Europe. Shinpah1 (talk) 22:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Genre or Term

Okay, this article now describes euro-trance as a marketing term made up by the British media. Not a music genre. So why does it still have an Artist category? IF this isn't a genre, I say we really need to remove that section and just mention examples of artists considered euro-trance (that section already exists). Or do some people still believe this is a real genre of music? Bootini (talk) 22:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Music genres are generally are created by the media. --neonwhite user page talk 23:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

That's not what I meant. Basically I meant that eurotrance is just a redundant marketing term. However, are there really any sources that define eurotrance anyway? I mean, it's kind of impossible to do anything with this article without any sources anyway. Even I don't really understand what the point with 'eurotrance' really is. For me personally it's basically just "modern" eurodance, i.e. commercial (broadly marketed) cheesy dance music. And the artists here are basically just eurodance artists and progressive trance artists.

I checked some eurotrance tag on Last.FM and the artists tagged with that was mostly commercial (progressive) trance DJs and groups. Which really just proves how undefined this genre is I think. Bootini (talk) 18:09, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Edited Heavily

For a start, Prog. Trance cannot, I repeat, cannot be classified alongside Euro-Trance/Dance. A lot of Europeans may argue that this genre was simply made up, could be true, but the fact is that it is a recognised genre by many dance radio stations now. It is generally accepted as the cheesy, vocal commercial dance and I'd say it has very little to do with the original trance sound these days. Also, why was Scouse House linked as Bouncy Techno? Both genres are totally different to each other. It makes you wonder if the people that actually wrote these pages know what they are talking about!? I was horrified to find Markus Schulz linked here as Euro-Trance!!

- - - - - - - -

They have deleted Scouse House article. This is not a fault of this article.

The late 90s / early 00s european Progressive Trance productions, imported in UK under the term "Euro-Trance". The British do that all the time: Euro - Disco, Euro - House and now Euro - Trance. It is easy like that. That's how that "gentre" started. Then, it spread in Europe, because of the local MTV Versions: MTV Polska, MTV Romania, MTV Andria and MTV Turkey use the term when a presenter talks about older Trance Music overall. So, some weak markets, adapt the term just for the trendy sound of and that creates conflicts. They are countless bootleg compilations on those countries, with older Trance songs, under the title "Best of Eurotrance", "Eurotrance Hits", "Hot and Euro Trance", etc.

The bigger problem is that the Americans got the term Eurotrance and try to market it there as the continuation of Eurodance. Here in Europe, Eurodance is all the commercial dance acts produced in Europe, including what Eurotrance is about.

The people who wrote this article probably didn't know what they were talking about, and I doubt no one does, since there are no sources.

However, as of now I don't really see any difference between eurodance and euro-trance, and most people agree euro-trance is just used to market the commercial music as a continuation of eurodance. As I see it, euro-trance is more or less "modern" eurodance, since eurodance in it's original form doesn't really exist anymore anyway.

So how about we merge this with eurodance then, what do you think? Bootini (talk) 13:47, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I have the source you need. Can you handle Viacom so to upload it? I have on tape the famous "Top 100 of Eurotrance" from MTV Dance. I can upload the whole show if you like. I can also post covers from compilations under the term "Eurotrance". Can you handle the copyrights?

You have to realize that this is commercial dance music we are talking here. You won't find "reliable' sources, only fan sites. And most of them of local interest. Almost all the articles related with terms from Dance music the last 30 years, have the same exactly problem: "Bad" or "No" sources. You won't find books about dance music! Show me one! You gonna find thousand books about rock music, even some pop stars. But for dance music, no. Try to find a book about Italo Disco, Euro Disco, Euro House, etc. You won't, nobody interests about those music styles, since the big ones won't get any money by selling those "old fashion dance hits".

The problem is that the sources are the music shows from back then. Most of them are from MTV'S "Dance" show and "MTV's Party Zone". For example, I have former VJ Simone Angel explaining on "Dance", a 90s MTV Europe show, about the term "Eurohouse" with Italian and German dance producers. "Eurohouse" is the term of what the Americans label those days as "Eurodance". If I'll upload the show on youtube and create an article based on this source, which has the musicians themselves talking about their music, can you cover me against Viacom and Youtube? Or I'll have a banned account in 12 hours and my IP on RIAA or whatever?

Things can be easy for Nirvana, The Doors or the Beatles. Well that is rock music. Dance music is a different story. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.130.205.215 (talk) 22:30, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

My point was that even if you probably have more clue than some other people who have added to this article, there is no way to prove that without sources. And ironically all the "sources" about this subject are highly inconsistent with each other anyway. After all, Wikipedia is not about truthiness (however true it might be :P). Wikipedia echoes what the public thinks, however wrong or corrupt that may be.

As you say I've come to realize that it's kind of futile to try to define this to be honest, since people use current fan sites etc as their sources. I agree that old shows (and magazines, such as DJ Mag) would probably make the "best" sources since they at least describe the music from when it started. But then again you can always find another magazine or whatever that tells you otherwise.

Makes me wonder if there's a tag to be permanently attached to an article to tell people it's... uhm... undefinable or something. There probably aren't though, since it's better to contain everything there is to know about the subject, including disputes, different uses etc. That is not going to happen with this article considering it's popularity though.

And by the way, since this article currently contains zero sources, anyone reading this should NOT in any way ever take it too seriously. Bootini (talk) 10:32, 7 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree that there must be a sign that says that "this article can't be prooven, 'cause the sources are all copyrighted and blame the "big ones" for this". Unfortunatelly, there are no magazines for Dance music. Whatever exists in Europe is British and limited for pop music. The other local european markets, simply translate some articles and add them in their own magazines if something became too successfull in their local market. On the other hand, there are some promotional magazines that covers dance music, but those cases try to connect the music with something that they own. A perfect example today, is tecktonik. So, those magazines actually could be a worst source. There is also the terminology problem in Dance music between USA, Britain, Central Europe and the rest Europe. A music style is called different in different areas. A perfect example: French House

Personally, I know about Dance music because I'm related with a local music television station and I did some search for those subjects so to determine the thematic music shows. My search covered all the areas of dance music, from 1976 to today. Can I proove something? Upsolutely no. Come to my house to show you my tapes. Is the best I can do. Everytime I tried to upload that material in the web, end up with a banned account.

I can't even post a jpeg PIC that would explain instantly things. And there are no public domain sources for those subjects yet. Just imagine that for pure Disco music (the 70s productions) good public domain sources gonna exist in about 8 years from now. If they forget to extend the copyrthings that is. For the 90s stuff, we have to wait for a long - long time... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.38.195.250 (talk) 09:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)

Another fairly extensive edit

While I was cleaning this article up I realized how deeply ingrained some of its problems are, along with some other issues:

• A lot of the "known" artists in the section "Handz Up!" do not have individual Wikipedia pages, or their pages were deleted, suggesting a lack of notability
• I'm not sure whether the "known" artists in the section "Handz Up!" are in fact artists producing music of the Handz Up! style or if they are artists of the Euro-trance style in general. It is ambiguous. Would the editor(s) who added them (or someone who knows the subject better than I do) please figure it out and change the page if necessary?
• Music styles are often subjective, especially if a song or artist spans several styles in the electronic music genre. That is why we try to reach consensus. Insulting people/organizations/countries does not help Wikipedia, so try to assume good faith.

Looking at some of the emotive comments on this talk page, I can see there might be some people who may be upset about me changing such a large portion of it (it was, after all, a pretty big cleanup). I'd just like to restate that what I changed it to was already in the article, I just rephrased it so that it's clearer. They don't necessarily reflect my own views. If you still don't like it, you can contact me via my talk page. Phlyght (talk) 18:14, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

I think that Hands Up is its own genre. Not only do I think this, I have a German article to back it up: [1] (use Google Translate: [2]). Other than Hands Up, all of the styles listed here have their own pages. As well, it has been disputed that Euro-Trance is not a very good description and is not a real genre. I wont go into that, i'll just propose that we rename this to Hands Up and get rid of (or re-word) the sections describing other music styles (which i agree are related). ...and vocal trance has surely become something much larger than just European. Rgs258 (talk) 03:56, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

With no substantial objection, I will execute this move on or before 20090104 (jan4). Rgs258 (talk) 05:27, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

This article does not appear to have any information in it about the "Hands Up" genre. Perhaps it would be best to create a new article for it at something like Hands Up (genre) or similar. There is already a dab page at Hands Up that should not be moved from its current location, as there doesn't seem to be a primary topic. Parsecboy (talk) 20:42, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

I see that the Hands Up section was removed in change 262466140. I have re-added it temporarily until i am able to commit the time to create a new genre. Rgs258 (talk) 22:03, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Music Examples

I'd like to add, that music examples of "eurotrance" are not correct. They are about dancecore aka hands up style, but not about eurotrance. I tried to delete them, but someone restored them. Examples are mistake, eurotrance is another music (what is written in article correct). Please delete them, or replace with something correct (like armin van buuren - communication 3). —Preceding unsigned comment added by SpaceManW (talk • contribs) 12:35, 7 March 2009 (UTC)