Talk:Eurovision Song Contest

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Why Germany shown as winner only once?[edit]

The map is wrong, showing Germany not having won twice. And please let's not hear the 'that was West Germany' argument that was soundly defeated on wikipedia at the time of Lena's victory 4 years ago. Germany is Germany... the country in 82 is the same state as it was in 2010 Vauxhall1964 (talk) 13:59, 25 July 2014 (UTC)

I totally agree. Yeah, so Germany reunited after the fall of the Berlin Wall... but that doesn't invalidate their previous win. The same German TV companies retained their EBU membership, and competed under the same national banner. Germany have been entering the Contest since 1956: not since 1990! That map needs to be changed. Sure, keep the footnote with the caveat. But I don't know a single person who would claim that "Germany has only won once". Rubbish. EuroSong talk 16:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Capital C for Contest[edit]

When the word "Contest" is used within this article, in most occurrences it is being used as a short form of "Eurovision Song Contest". For example, if you say "Switzerland won the first Contest", that could really be written "Switzerland won the first Eurovision Song Contest". The only reason why the whole ESC title is not repeated throughout the article is that it would be superfluous and repetitious. Therefore "the Contest" is simply used in order to replace "the ESC". However because it is a short form of "the ESC", it remains a proper noun. Therefore it must be capitalised.

The word should only be written in lower case when talking about "a contest". For example: "The EBU decided to create a contest in which their member countries would participate".

The simple rule is: if you can replace "Contest" in the sentence with "Eurovision Song Contest", then it is a proper name and needs to be capitalised. If you can't replace it as such, then it's just an ordinary word and does not require a capital. EuroSong talk 17:09, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

Loving the explanation, well done. I'll like to add that detail as a FAQ which will be added to the talk page header. Wes Mouse 19:31, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
I'm afraid I partially disagree. While the arguments being made are logical , English grammar rules on the subject are actually quite complicated and there isn't universal agreement on the subject – as the article on proper nouns alludes to. In practice, I found it common practice that only actual proper nouns are capitalized, with the common nouns always being uncapitalized even when they are being used as a substitute for a proper noun with a definite article. In other words, while "the 2015 Contest" and "the 2015 Eurovision Song Contest" should be capitalized, "the contest" shouldn't be. I haven't found anything in the WP:MOS that specifically addresses this for all topics, but the spirit of MOS:GEOUNITS is that generic words (i.e. common nouns) like the "the city", "the university", and "the contest", shouldn't take capitals, while the actual names (i.e. proper nouns) like "the University of Southampton", the "City of London", and "the Eurovision Song Contest" should, and I think we should stick to this unless there is something else more relevant in the MOS which says differently. For the moment, I have partially reverted the change as per WP:BRD. CT Cooper · talk 19:45, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Hmm, looking at both sides now I'm 50/50; as both make perfect sense. I'll hide the FAQ tag for now then. Wes Mouse 19:48, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Looking at other what other articles do might help this. I've quickly looked at today's featured article, Hurricane Esther, and it uses "the hurricane", though there are other articles that follow different rules, such as Eton College, which consistently uses "the College" – though B-class articles haven't had their grammar scrutinized to the same degree that featured ones have.
It should also be noted that we need to be realistic about the standards we set here. People are always going to make grammar errors, but going with common practices that are acceptable in English grammar rules will save us a lot of time and effort against going with less common practices, even if they are arguably "more correct" or logical. Other good examples of this dilemma would be spokespersons and debut against spokespeople and début respectively. CT Cooper · talk 20:25, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Debut/début is a good one. Spellcheckers do not recognise the word without the e-acute, especially Google Chrome, Comodo Dragon, and Internet Explorer (as I've tested those). However, online dictionaries show both variants as being correct. As I have a habit of spellchecking whenever I see that red wiggly line, I tend to go with what the spellchecker advises. Plus I've got use to how to type acute letters using a standard Qwerty keyboard, by keeping hold of Alt Gr and the vowel letter of choice. Wes Mouse 20:47, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
"Debut" is indeed fine - however as both début and debut are acceptable, then we should stick with the original... which was actually written by ME when I revamped the article way back in 2006, in its current format. Of course I recognise that no-one "owns" the article - however since I was the original author, and début is acceptable, then there was no good reason for someone to have changed it. When I put the é in recently, this was not a change but actually a revert to the original - which is acceptable. CT Cooper, you're quite correct about the distinction between proper and generic nouns - and indeed, as per MOS:GEOUNITS, generic nouns do not take capitals. However it appears that you comprehend the usage differently to me when it pops up through the article. When one talks about "The 1956 Contest" (as a short form of "the 1956 Eurovision Song Contest") then it is indeed the same as when one talks about "the rules of the Contest" (as a short form of "the rules of the Eurovision Song Contest"). You have not justified how you think that talking about a specific year's edition of the Song Contest differs from talking about the institution of the (Eurovision) Song Contest. Both are used as proper nouns. They DO differ from the generic "this is not the only song contest in the world". Perhaps you will better understand it from the sentence: "The EBU proposed the idea of a song contest - and therefore the Song Contest was born". Oh, and by the way... I was also the original author of all these uses of "Contest", which someone else then changed without proper justification. EuroSong talk 12:02, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
Thank you for explaining the situation with the term debut, though a brief explanation on this in the edit summary would have been appreciated. I don't actually have a strong opinion on this, though I would prefer if we could use consistent spellings in all Eurovision articles and only defer to MOS:ENGVAR as a last resort. I note that {{Infobox Eurovision}} has used "debut" since its creation which is probably one reason that "debut" seems to have been favoured in articles that use that infobox. If consensus cannot be reached on this issue, it won't matter too much as it is a trivial matter, but we should at least be being consistent within articles and under MOS:RETAIN I actually believe "debut" is the established spelling for this article as this style has been used since 2005. An editor revamping the article does not override the establishment of a particular spelling.
On the noun issue, I'm confused on where the term generic noun has come from here as neither MOS:GEOUNITS or my earlier comments reference this term and it has a specific meaning which isn't very relevant to this discussion. When it comes to capitalization of words in English the appropriate distinction is between common nouns and proper nouns.
Overall I believe you are misreading both what I have said and what MOS:GEOUNITS states. My position and that of MOS:GEOUNITS is that generic words should not take capitals, whether they are referring to a unique entity or not. "The city has a population of 55,000." is clearly referring to a unique entity, yet MOS:GEOUNITS state that this should not be capitalized, though if one replaced "city" with the actual proper noun, then it would be capitalized as in the example given of "The City of Smithville has a population of 55,000". Logically, when extending this to Eurovision the correct formats are "The Eurovision Song Contest [proper noun] is the most popular event on Earth", "The 2011 Contest [proper noun] was the most popular event on Earth", "The contest [common noun substituting for a proper noun] is the most popular event on Earth", and "A song contest [common noun] could be the most popular event on Earth." CT Cooper · talk 14:21, 15 September 2014 (UTC)