Talk:Evil twin

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Uses for Hercules[edit]

The appearances section needs expanding most; there are lots and lots of uses (Superman, Star Trek, Hercules, Xena) but I don't have adequate references for any of them. I'd also like to know if we can find any definite place of origin for the evil twin, at least the modern stereotype. --82.92.184.196 12:25, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC) (I'm User:JRM who can't log in right now, sorry.)

Bizarro Bart[edit]

Hugo Simpson is not the evil twin; Bart is. Hugo could be said to be the "'Bizarro' Bart", but to call Hugo the evil twin would be a misnomer since Bart is in fact the evil one.

The Strange Omission of BlackWarGreymon[edit]

One of the appearances that needs to be added is BlackWarGreymon in the anime/manga section...

Trials and Tribulations of Dahlia Hawthorne[edit]

Another that ought to be here is Dahlia Hawthorne from the game Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney - Trials and Tribulations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wbuehling (talkcontribs) 05:07, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Scourge, Nemesis and Cybertron[edit]

Also, Scourge is only Optimus Prime's evil twin in one Transformers show, Robots in Disguise. In Armada, there is a different evil twin, Nemesis Prime. After his short lifespan's through with, the next evil twin surfaces in Cybertron. He is a clone of Leobreaker named Nemesis Breaker, and is made by Megatron.

Antagonist having a "good" twin[edit]

Should their be any mention on this page of examples of decidedly evil characters in fiction having characters who greatly resemble themselves physically, but are not nessicarily portrayed as evil, or even antagonistic? (such as Kagewaki Hitomi from Inuyasha.) 66.24.229.233 22:27, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see neither any mention of William Wilson, where the doppelgänger was the moral conscience of the character. However I have found it in "Doppelgänger". --80.88.167.6 (talk) 08:58, 23 February 2008 (UTC)(Anonimous)
A good example of that might be Zeniba from Spirited Away who, despite her menacing initial appearance against Haku, is actually Yubaba's good twin. Sincerely, SamBlob (talk) 03:39, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Mislabeling Twins as Evil[edit]

The article mentions Tom Riker of Star Trekas an evil Twin of Will Riker, but Tom Riker isn't really *evil* so much. I mean, he's a bit darker and more conflicted than Will, but he's still trying to be the good guy (even when he joins the Maquis). Traegorn 15:53, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, some normal Twins (like Ursula and Pheobe of Mad About You and Friends respectively - who were actually just two different, independent characters played by the same actress who were later made twins by the two shows writers) are mislabeled as "Evil Twins" when, frankly, neither twin is "Evil" Traegorn 16:03, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Ursula did some evil things- didn't she know who their real mother was and she "never bothered" to tell Pheobe? I wouldn't call Tom Riker evil, but Ursula was the evil twin- even if she didn't twirl her moustache and plan global domination. --TheTruthiness 00:56, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Examples[edit]

This whole section seems quite excessive, in addition to being uncited. I think that the whole list should be pruned back to just a handfull. Any objections?Chunky Rice 22:24, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Prune away. This list is chock full of OR and uncited opinion. Doczilla 00:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, I took out the entire section. I wanted to leave a couple, but when it came down to it, not a single one of them actually said that the character was referred to as an evil twin in the fictional work or cited to a source that did. I even tried to find a citation for a couple, but couldn't find any good ones. I think that the best thing to do is to delete the entire list (which I did) and to add examples back in as sources are found.Chunky Rice 21:39, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

"Twin Peaks" (1990-1991) television show featured the "show within a show" entitled "Invitation to Love," a soap opera watched by characters that often mirrored events on the TV show itself. ITL featured identical twins Jade and Emerald Lancaster, (played by Erika Anderson,) one good (Jade) and the other evil (Emerald). The twins were thought by some critics to mirror the cousins Laura Palmer (evil) and Maddie Ferguson (good) although the two actual characters were not twins but closely-resembled cousins.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.224.107.100 (talkcontribs)

I would argue that, as 'evil twin' is simply description of a type of fictional character, you do not need an explicit reference to 'evil twin' in an example. It should be enough that the character referenced meets the definition. You wouldn't require an author to explicitly declare their main character to be 'the protagonist' to use such a character as an example (see Foil (literature)). I believe that lists of examples are helpful to an article as examples can do a better job of illustrating a concept than explanation. Often I go to an article seeking just such a list.Ryojin314159 03:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

I disagree (obviously). Unless the criteria is purely factual, OR/POV issues are inevitable without citation to a reliable source. Those examples in the Foil article are also OR/POV and should probably be removed unless cited.Chunky Rice 02:06, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Apparently the only notable evil twin in the entirety of fiction is from some dumb webcomic

As much as I'm a fan of Order of the Stick, it is sort of ridiculous for it to be the sole example, espectially as the creator was directly parodying other Evil Twin cliches. I added the reference to South Park, because that episode specifically refers to them as "evil twins". BadIdea 11:08, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Real life examples?[edit]

Are there any documented real life instances of twins having a different enough sense of morality, or different enough morals, to the point of fitting the good twin/evil twin archetype? --87.19.32.136 18:57, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I have a problem with the statement in the article: "Though examples of truly evil, biological twins exist..." because anyone with a drop of common sense knows that real people can never be "truly good", much less "truly evil". That hogwash only exists in Hollywood movies (good guy vs. bad guy). Show me a truly evil person, just one. One single person who never showed a single shred of goodness towards anyone. Even the basest serial killer once picked up some other little boy's dropped pencil for him. Or gave directions to a lost couple for getting back to their hotel safely. It's stupid, it's uncited, it's logical to assume it will never be cited, and I'm removing it. Succubus MacAstaroth (talk) 21:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
There is this rather brilliant news story: [1] MultipleTom (talk) 21:22, 11 July 2009 (UTC)
Fun and fascinating, but two bones to pick: 1) Nothing in this story points to the guy being evil. Committing a crime does not automatically make you evil, even if it involved beating someone up badly. 2) Both twins committed a crime in pulling the old switcheroo, so they are both law-breakers. I imagine the ploy was to get the accused twin out of jail so he could run away, and then the twin who took his place could go up to the guards and be like, "Look at me closely - I'm not the guy! Don't believe me? Check my fingerprints!" Half-baked idea, since aiding escape carries a similar sentence to aggravated assault as far as I know... if not more... LOL, I guess IQ does run in families... Succubus MacAstaroth (talk) 20:40, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Origin[edit]

This article would greatly benefit from any verifiable source speaking to the first appearance of the evil twin. Why, indeed, is it called "twin" when the earliest version I can thik of—Serena on Bewitched—wasn't a twin at all, but a cousin? If we're going to have an "Origin" section, we need to try to actually find the origin of the term. The mentions of Cain and Abel and doppelgangers are helpful, but they're a bit far off from the modern usage. CzechOut | 07:19, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Why are Cain and Abel even mentioned? They were not twins. Unless the article is about sibling rivalry their inclusion doesn't make sense here. HansLechner 18:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Evil Twins in Fiction[edit]

I'd like to propose a separate page for the fictional evil twins to enable people to post as many as they want. Any thoughts? - IamMcLovin 09:51, 26 August 2007 (UTC)

Oppose. Separation doesn't release editors from the burden to establish notability. The list shouldn't be continued on another page, but rather combed for its most salient examples, which should then be included in the body of the article's text. CzechOut | 18:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Support. Separation does not release editors from having to establish notability, but it does clean up an otherwise bloated page. I say that the content of the Evil Twins in Fiction section should be entirely relocated to the Dopplegangers in Fiction page, and then editors can go over the list and remove the crap. Brash (talk) 17:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Does the clone army in Pokemon: The First Movie count as evil twins? PRhyu 11:11, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

No. Brash (talk) 17:58, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Merge with doppelgänger?[edit]

Well, I've been working pretty intently at this article for two days now and I'm starting to wonder whether this whole article couldn't be chopped in half and merged with doppelgänger. Is it wrong to think of an evil twin as merely a specific type of doppelgänger? Of particular interest to me is the fact that the doppelgänger article has a linked List of fictional doppelgängers. What's the difference between a fictional doppelgänger and an evil twin?

Alternately, do you think it would be appropriate to give a brief version of this article at doppelgänger and keep this as the main article for evil twin?CzechOut | 03:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I think you've done a great job on the Evil Twin article, it has really improved! :-) I think doppelgänger and evil twin are very similar, although there are some aspects that aren't similar like real life examples there really hasn't been any proof that evil twins are possible, and it's more of a fictional thing. I think your proposal in the second paragraph is a good idea, giving a brief version in the doppelgänger article instead. For the List of fictional doppelgängers, most are evil twins but their is a couple examples in the list where the doppelgänger in question is not evil. Once again, great work on the article! - IamMcLovin 04:23, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks very much :) I think what's troubling me about the article is that there seems to be no real "origin" point for the term "evil twin", almost as if it's simply an anglicization of the German loanword. And then there are articles like this, which begin by speaking about the primary, supernatural meaning for doppelgangers, and then suddenly switch to the vernacular meaning and end on a pithy note about Spock's goatee.
The other thing that worries me is what to do about the non-evil twin. For instance, what do you call the Mirror, Mirror version of Miles O'Brien—or for that matter the entirety of the Mirror, Mirror-verse. Strictly speaking, the Mirror, Mirror verse isn't comprised of "evil" people, but anti-people. Bizzaro-like versions of the characters whose moralities might tend towards one side or the other, but who are not, if you'll excuse the mixed trope, "goatee twirlers". Even the definitional Mirror-Spock shows a complexity of characterization that makes it hard to label him "evil". He's still like "normal Spock" in that he uses logic creatively to broker new realities. There's not that much difference between Mirror-Spock's liberalization policies and normal-Spock's Romulan-Vulcan or Klingon-Federation negotations. They're both massive paradigm shifts, done for "good of the many, not the one" reasons. CzechOut | 05:08, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Oppose. Not all doppelgangers are evil twins. But there should be a link to the evil twin page on the doppelganger page, and vice versa. PRhyu 11:15, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Biblical example[edit]

Why is the biblical example Cain and Able who were not twins, rather than Jacob and Esau who were? May I add them? Basejumper2 01:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC) 01:24, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Tuvok[edit]

His mirror universe self may not have had a goatee, but Tulok, the character in the Doctor's holo-novel (who was an evil counterpart of sorts to Tuvok) did have a goatee. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.33.9.99 (talk) 21:24, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Ernst Theodor Amadeus Hoffmann[edit]

I do not see any citation of this important German author. He influenced Poe, Gogol and Siegmund Freud. In his "Die Elixire des Teufels" (1815) he set an evil twin; in "Prinzessin Brambilla" (1820) we see a rare example of demented twin.

By the way, the theme of the "double" is parodiated by Gogol in "The Nose".Anonimous, --80.88.167.6 (talk) 09:08, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

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Redundant list[edit]

It really is redundant to have a huge list of evil twins in this article when there's an article List of fictional doppelgängers. - Jason A. Quest (talk) 21:21, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed Friends reference[edit]

I removed the following text, since it is irrelevant to the Origins section, i.e., it has nothing to do with the origins of the term "evil twin":

In several episodes of the TV sitcom Friends, Phoebe's evil twin sister Ursula is mentioned, and is also a source of conflict in some episodes. Phoebe makes many references to how Ursula ruined parts of her childhood and caused her grief over the years. In one episode, Phoebe is stalked by a man who thought she was Ursula. She eventually dates the stalker for a short period of time. Also in one episode of Even Stevens, Louis gets tormented, by his evil twin.

Loadmaster (talk) 20:11, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

Good cut. Dr.Who (talk) 01:31, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

eVIL tWIN{?}[edit]

  • Was Mozenrath supposed to be a Evil twin brother of Aladdin {Disney Cartoon Series? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.83.72.154 (talk) 12:18, 21 May 2011 (UTC) Possible-he doesn't appear in the followup movie Aladdin and the King of Thieves; although a later episode "Two to Tangle" # 83 shows him losing a battle to take over Aladdin body-an out of place in the chronology of the series a earlier episode "The Secret of Dagger Rock" Mozenrath was trapped forever in the Crystal of Ix. Likewise Jassmine's rival Sadira who appears in both the series and the last movie-was she supposed to be lost half evil/half hero twin sister of Aladdin?