Talk:Ex-gay movement

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Recent changes...[edit]

Given that we've got an editor who's recently a) made a lot of serious changes to the article, and b) edit-warred to keep in some scare quotes and POV language, does it make more sense to go through all their edits with a fine-toothed comb, or simply revert to the version prior to their large batch of edits and ask them to start again? I haven't looked in detail at the edits--just popped up on my watchlist as a probable edit war, and it's pretty clear that Scientimom could use some policy-based guidance here. Jclemens (talk) 23:56, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I thought the exact same thing when I looked over his edits over the last few days to this article. There's so much that's been changed and most of it violates our NPOV policy. Since there's so much then I think a revert to this edit [1] on the 28th of February is required to salvage this article before too many readers dismiss this article as POV filled. Govgovgov (talk) 00:10, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Revert. I should warn everyone that according to Alison, for the past several months Scientom was socking and logging out/in to make "controversial" edits. I can only assume the reason was to evade scrutiny.   little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer
 
17:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Reverted. Can you link to where Alison said this, for the record? Jclemens (talk) 05:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Lede problems[edit]

I have just moved a large body of text from the lede which was independent from the article itself. It appears that Scientiom is trying to make sure that the Ex-gay articles are flooded with the information that it is a psudo-science. Now I have no problem with that information being there, but creating walls of text detailing those arguments is a violation of WP:WEIGHT even when we take into consideration that the scientific point of view has a privileged spot on wikipedia. Additionally Scientiom has been briefed on WP:LEDE several times and now it appears that they are just ignoring those conversations.Coffeepusher (talk) 13:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Erm, that was the version which you yourself mostly proposed. --Scientiom (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

please address the concerns on the talk page. That version was created with the understanding that you were trying to improve the encyclopedia, your recent edit made it clear that you were not interested in improving the encyclopedia or follow the rules but rather to push an extreme WP:POV.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:06, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
That allegation doesn't hold water considering that the version that was posted was mostly what you proposed yourself, and I've already briefed you on WP:PSCI, WP:WEIGHT, WP:VALID, and WP:FRINGE. --Scientiom (talk) 17:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
You were briefed on what was supposed to be in the lede, we both went over the policy that the lede can only contain information contained within the article, you had the exact same conversation on another page for the exact same reason, and then you went back to the ex gay movement page and inserted effectively the same edit that you and I had talked about when it didn't reference anything within the article. It's not an allegation.
I'm reposing this conversation on Talk:Ex-gay movement.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:45, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Frankly, I'd like to know the problem with the edit - is all the text not properly and well sourced with high quality citations according to WP:V? Is it not in line with WP:PSCI, WP:WEIGHT, WP:VALID, and WP:FRINGE? --Scientiom (talk) 17:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
This edit adds 3921 charicters to the lede which doesn't summarize anything within the article. The article contains nothing about DOMA, or the Pan American health orgonization yet your addition almost doubles the size of the lede, overpowering the summary with detailed information regarding not only stuff not covered in the article, but detailed information which is critical of the topic of the article. This edit doesn't summarize the Pan American Health orgonization's statement, and makes that look like that event was a key moment in the ex-gay movement. We should note that you added that material after we worked on a summary together, I let it slide, and other editors removed it for the same reasons I have set up this talk discussion.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:59, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
We might note that this isn't the only time you have had this conversation. Talk:justice#Lede problem, and Talk:LGBT rights at the United Nations#The lead and opposition section, both pointed out the exact same policies about the lede sections that you and I discussed (I don't care if it was a banned editor, the policy quoted still stands). This shows that you already knew the problems with this edit. My only recourse is to assume that your WP:POV overrides your consideration of wikipedia policy, or that we are dealing with a WP:COMPETENCE issue.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:19, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Seriously Scientiom. WTF? You seem to have a grasp of various policies (when it suits your needs). You are heading towards a topic ban if you keep going down this path.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer
 
22:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

OneByOne[edit]

The merging-as-a-result-of-AfD has dumped a whole lot of detail about OneByOne into this article. That group does not seem to have been a significant player in the field, and does not merit this depth of coverage, under WP:BALASPS. Can we come to consensus that most of it can be stripped out? --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I rather think so. The whole reason the group wasn't able to sustain an article was because they're completely non-notable; it's obvious that the weight given to their self-published claims is vastly undue. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 17:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I merged any relevant information in, and I have no opinion as to how much or little is appropriate. My goal was solely to move the information per the AfD result. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:49, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I see no harm in including it in the "other ex-gay organizations", as Roscelese revised it, but the organization does not merit anything beyond that. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 17:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I encourage those who are undeleting material to join in this discussion. Material introduced by merge does not automatically protect it form consensus editing, and currently there are more editors who have indicated that this material should be deleted than there were who !voted in the AfD for merging. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:25, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Having just reverted back to Roscelese's version, I would like to weigh in. The OneByOne article was deleted because it was not notable. Coatracking it on to a different article does not change the fact that it is not notable. Giving a not notable organization three paragraphs while the notable organization that started the ex-gay movement gets only one paragraph is giving it undue weight. If we allow the three paragraphs to stand -- or even just give it a single paragraph all its own -- we open the doors for proponents of every other non-notable self-described ex-gay ministry to add their own paragraph. I believe that we should stay focused on the movement itself and not irrelevant components: let it be mentioned in the "other groups" paragraph, and leave it at that. If other such groups start clamoring for a mention, we can select only those that are notable enough to have Wiki articles and exclude OneByOne and other non-notable organizations from that paragraph. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 23:14, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
While WP:NOTABILITY is not a guideline for inclusion of material in an article, I think WP:BALASPS very much applies. Inclusion of extensive material about a group that shows no sign of having significant impact on the subject would seem at odds with that guideline. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:26, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Notability doesn't limit content within articlees per se, but the same guidelines that help us determine notability also help us determine due weight. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 23:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

In addition to the claim of consensus even in the AfD being dubious, it was based on false information. An editor claimed that that article had spun out of this one. That article was started in March of 2007. For all of that month, this article was a redirect. Before being switched to a redirect, this article had no reference to OneByOne in it. -Nat Gertler (talk) 02:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

1) If this was NOT one of the organizations spun out of this article in the past, I apologize for so mishcharacterizing it. Still, that does not override AfD consensus, as determined by an impartial administrator, which was to merge the content. If you want to argue that, you can talk to the closing admin or go to DRV. Likewise, characterizing the AfD outcome as deleting the content for lack of notability is an inaccurate characterization: the outcome was 'merge' not 'delete', and anything which has the de facto effect of deleting the to-be-merged material without an appropriate discussion is disruptive editing.
2) The deletion is only one way to meet WP:DUE, and of the possible ways, the most disruptive to our consensus process. The two alternatives would have been to a) add more sourced content about other Ex-gay movement organizations, or b) do an appropriate trim job, rather than a reduction from multiple paragraphs to one sentence. There's no hard and fast rule on that, but I'd say anything more than a 50% reduction would require a consensus discussion.
3) The big deal here was Roscelese's misconduct in both voting to delete the material, and then deleting it himself in defiance of the AfD outcome, which I notified him about here. I wouldn't normally feel compelled to bring this up, but that editor has chosen to both delete the warning from his talk page and participate in the discussion above without disclosing his misconduct. Jclemens (talk) 01:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
The content was merged, and now it is subject to consensus editing just like any other content in the article. You appear to be the only editor who objects to trimming it. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 01:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Please retract your personal attack. At least one IP editor has disputed the trimming here, and for you to insinuate that I am editing while logged out to obfuscate consensus is entirely inappropriate. Jclemens (talk) 01:22, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
They can join the discussion like anyone else. I don't consider a drive-by edit while there's a discussion going on to be a participating editor. Calm down and stick to the subject. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 01:30, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Regardless of what happened in the AfD, we have to ask whether there is consensus among editors at this article to include that content. It doesn't appear that any such consensus exists (I agree with the other editors who have removed the material). NB Jclemens, Roscelese is a her, not a him. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Responding to Jclemens's numbered items:
  1. WP:Consensus can change. We are having a discussion here, and with four of the five participating editors in this discussion calling for removal of the material, it's pretty clear how this consensus is going.
  2. WP:DUE in no way applies to this material, as that guideline is discussing inclusion of minority viewpoints. OneByOne is not a viewpoint, and the viewpoint that they espouse seems to be basically the one covered in the article.
  3. Discussion of another user's handling of his talk page is not appropriate to this talk page. --Nat Gertler (talk) 02:19, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
It took Roscelese (split, not hung) all of 12 minutes to do her de facto deletion of the OneByOne material after Thargor merged it here, per AfD. Why waste everybody's time discussing it? Right, Roscelese? Just delete it if you don't like it. Sort of reminds me of her unilateral deletion of Virginia Society for Human Life back on 23 July. Her behavior in both cases is misconduct of a high-handed sort. I am not Jclemens, and I agree with everything he has said here (he knows more about it than you do). --72.66.30.115 (talk) 05:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC) (Please feel free to call me Mr. IP—I'm hung, not split.)
Oh, it's just my latest harasser again. That makes things so much more clear. Hi there! –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 05:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── As the closing admin, I was asked if I wanted to comment. There's nothing within the merging guidelines that says everything has to be kept. Moving it all over first and then agreeing the right amount for the receiving article seems the most sensible way to approach this. Someone above commented that as part of the AfD there was comment that OneByOne had come out of this and should go back. Whether that was true or not was not relevant to my decision; there's no reason that a merge should only come from a split, so that is neither here nor there. If you want my personal view, a quick line or mention, such as it it as the moment seems reasonable, but I'm not an expert on the subject, just a casual reader. GedUK  12:08, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Added paragraph[edit]

Recently, a user added the following paragraph:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ex-gay_movement&diff=prev&oldid=608750153

The ex-gay movement is dead. Every major national and international ex-gay ministry with 4 decades of experience has shut down or become gay-affirming. The claim that a person chooses his sexual orientation is disputed by science, medical associations and even the major ex-gay leaders in the final years of the ex-gay movement. "99.9%" of Christians seeking sexual orientation did not experience a change from homosexual to heterosexual" explained Alan Chambers, long-time president of the only worldwide ex-gay ministry, Exodus International, in January, 2012 at the Gay Christian Network conference (search "Exodus admits gays can't change). John Smid, long-time executive director of the original ex-gay ministry founded in 1973, Love in Action, confirmed this, stating on his blog, "I have never met a man who changed from homosexual to heterosexual." Both Chambers and Smid include themselves in this assessment though Chambers chose to stay wed to a woman while Smid has ended his marriage and moved in with a man. Love in Action and Exodus International no longer exist. Other ex-gay ministries have shut down since 2012, most notably Evergreen International, which was the largest and oldest Mormon-affiliated ex-gay ministry. Evergreen and Love in Action each gave their membership lists to new, small organizations hoping to restart the ex-gay ministries using the same claims and techniques that had been used in the past.

This was quickly reverted as unsourced. I'd like to know if there is any baby in this bathwater (if there is any information worth salvaging here.

Here are each of the assertions:

  • The ex-gay movement is dead.
  • Every major national and international ex-gay ministry with 4 decades of experience has shut down or become gay-affirming.
  • The claim that a person chooses his sexual orientation is disputed by science, medical associations and even the major ex-gay leaders in the final years of the ex-gay movement.
  • "99.9%" of Christians seeking sexual orientation did not experience a change from homosexual to heterosexual" explained Alan Chambers, long-time president of the only worldwide ex-gay ministry, Exodus International, in January, 2012 at the Gay Christian Network conference (search "Exodus admits gays can't change).
  • John Smid, long-time executive director of the original ex-gay ministry founded in 1973, Love in Action, confirmed this, stating on his blog, "I have never met a man who changed from homosexual to heterosexual."
  • Both Chambers and Smid include themselves in this assessment though Chambers chose to stay wed to a woman while Smid has ended his marriage and moved in with a man.
  • Love in Action and Exodus International no longer exist.
  • Other ex-gay ministries have shut down since 2012, most notably Evergreen International, which was the largest and oldest Mormon-affiliated ex-gay ministry.
  • Evergreen and Love in Action each gave their membership lists to new, small organizations hoping to restart the ex-gay ministries using the same claims and techniques that had been used in the past.

I would like to invite the editors to verify and source these assertions and add them to the article if appropriate. Just Tidying Up (talk) 14:11, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Ex-ex-gay merge proposal.[edit]

So It seems like there was support over there to merge. What does everyone here think?-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 07:51, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I think it is its own movement, certainly a person who has left that movement is not still part of the movement. Indeed these "ex-ex-gays" often speak out against the ex-gay movement. Just Tidying Up (talk) 16:30, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
But that doesn't mean that it isn't most efficiently covered within this article, as a reaction to this movement. It doesn't exist separate from this, and neither article is long enough that it requires full article space to itself. --Nat Gertler (talk) 17:10, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Scientific consensus on conversion therapy[edit]

Cutterx2202 is a new single purpose account trying to insert the following into the body of the article. The direct citations within this section are

  1. [2]
  2. [3]

The subarticle tied to this part of the lede is Sexual orientation change efforts

Right now every citation supports that there is "A large body of research and global scientific consensus indicates that being gay, lesbian, or bisexual is compatible with normal mental health and social adjustment" rather than "there is an ongoing research effort that tries to show that being gay, lesbian, or bisexual is compatible..."

As per wikipedia's varifiability principle that we must accurately reflect the reliable sources, the proposed change introduces an expression of doubt when there isn't any doubt in the citations or scientific community. The idea that homosexuality is somehow not normal mental health has been a fringe argument since the 1970's. I have therefore reverted the change.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:27, 18 November 2014 (UTC) I have also removed the "citation needed" label that they added to the lede in accordance to wikipedia's lede citation policies. The section that Cutterx2202 is asking for citations accurately reflects well referenced claims within the body of the article so no additional citations in the lede are necessary according to wikipedia's lede policies.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:08, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

In reference to the requesting citation - yes, they are included later in the article, which is the wrong place for them. The first instance they are used, especially here where it is a bold claim, is where they should be cited. I'm not doubting the validity of the citation, only that by placing them later, it is making it appear as if the claim does not need cited, but it does.
In reference to the slight wording change - the original wording is ambiguous ("Because of this") because of what? Is it referencing the "scientific consensus", which there is not, and cannot be on such a topic where there is still hot debate on it's origins? Is it referencing the content of research that's been done? It's ambiguous. My wording was not changing the meaning, nor the strength of the research, and wasn't even debating the particular research, just taking away the ambiguousness, and giving it a more accurate, unbiased representation of the current state of affairs. The insistence that "scientific consensus" remain also gives it a biased tinge because of the dubious nature of the statement. Let the raw amount and content of the research speak for itself; no need for projection.
Also, please don't make up arguments ("The idea that homosexuality is somehow not normal mental health has been a fringe argument since the 1970's."). Considering the scientific issue itself is still unsettled, and hotly debated even among scientists, and to a greater extent the public at large, that statement has no place.Cutterx2202 (talk) 03:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but this is completely off-base. The fact that we're not yet entirely sure what causes homosexuality does not translate to any kind of medical or scientific uncertainty about whether or not it is harmful. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 05:41, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
please provide reliable sources which show that "the scientific issue itself is still unsettled, and hotly debated even among scientists" to back up your claim, and please pay attention to what a reliable source is before you start posting articles that we simply cannot use. Right now the sources themselves state that there is a scientific consensus, the APA states that there is a scientific consensus, and that argument appears to be a fringe argument. Take note of wikipedia's due weight policy, even if you do find sources you will need to show that they are somehow equally represented in the scientific literature before we can give them equal time in the article. Cheers! Coffeepusher (talk) 15:20, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
as for the citation in the beginning of the article, according to wikipedia's lede rules a citation in the lede is not needed provided that it is represented by cited sources in the body of the article.Coffeepusher (talk) 15:21, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
as a side note, I didn't make up the argument that "the idea that homosexuality is somehow not normal mental health has been a fringe argument since the 1970's." The year was actually 1975, and it was the year that the APA actively sought to break the stigma on Homosexuality and classified it as normal mental health. [4]. Coffeepusher (talk) 20:58, 29 November 2014 (UTC)