Talk:Ex-gay movement

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Bias and Inaccurate Information[edit]

After going over the supposed medical research that claims that homosexuality is genetic or inborn and "unchangeable", I have discovered that much of it is inconsistent and based on faulty medical data and incomplete evidence. Moreover, there is quite a bit of medical evidence where people, who deal with same-sex attraction, is not physiologically fixed and that one can actually have their "preferences" revert back to heterosexual orientation. As such, I believe that this article is heavily misleading the public by not providing the links that show the alternative medical/scientific evidence. Not only that, but judging by the writing of this article, it is heavily biased against those who have decided to leave the homosexual lifestyle. ----- {User:EmilyGreene1984|EmilyGreene1984]] (talk)) 12:05, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Let's see your medical license. Partyclams (talk) 17:57, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I'm more interested in seeing his/her peer-reviewed sources. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 19:58, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
I am inclined to agree with EmilyGreene. For the record, I believe the vast variety of human sexual orientation is placed there by a loving creator to make life more interesting, so any attempt to homogenise us will fail. This article still seems a bit preachy. It does not present evidence for the opposite POV, which must surely exist. Or does it? Rumiton (talk) 03:01, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

You do realize that all scientific fields these days are politically charged? You cannot swim against the river.

Lede edits[edit]

Roscelese, I don't understand your opposition to my edits to the lede. Can you elaborate? — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 00:40, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

While I think I've made it clear in my edit summaries and really asked you to start this section so you could explain your edits, here again: there's an issue with stating as fact that someone is ex-gay, has departed homosexuality, etc. Preferable is to state that someone identifies as ex-gay. In terms of this article specifically, it is also normal to begin the article with an explanation of what the topic is, so "'Ex-gay' is a term that..." is not a bad start. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 00:47, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Generally, articles are about things/concepts, not terms, and saying "X is a term that" implies the latter (it's also bad writing since "X is" usually accomplishes the same effect of establishing a definition).
I still don't see a difference in how the term is defined between the version you've reverted to and the one with my edits. All I've added is that the movement actually includes ex-gay individuals, which seems pretty obvious. You aren't saying that the existence of actual ex-gay people is controversial/fringe, are you? — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 00:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm saying that "so-and-so is ex-gay" is undesirable in a way that "so-and-so identifies as ex-gay" or "so-and-so is gay" are not, due to the fringe-y nature of efforts to change sexual orientation. Perhaps, for clarity, we should resolve this issue before dealing with "X is a term." –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 01:16, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
If the definition of an ex-gay person is someone who no longer identifies as gay, doesn't saying "so and so identifies as ex gay" mean you're implicitly saying "so and so identifies as no longer identifying as gay." There's a redundant redundancy going on in that sort of overhedging. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 02:05, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
We generally require affirmative identification rather than a failure to identify. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 02:26, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Huh? — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 02:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia requires that we need someone (a living person, in particular) to have self-identified with a sexual orientation in order to describe or categorize them as such. "Publicly states that they have become ex-gay" and "no longer states that they are gay" are not the same. Possibly more to the point, though, "ex-gay" doesn't mean "no longer identifying as gay"; people who use it intend "no longer gay." (The current lede wording seems to be a way to try to convey this neutrally.)
But enough about me. You want to make a change; why is it important to you to declare that people have been successful in changing their sexual orientation? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 02:36, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure I see a difference between identifying as having a certain sexual orientation and simply having said sexual orientation. I'm not claiming that someone was "successful" in changing who they are attracted to as much as it seems that the definition of "ex-gay" (as it's presented in the article), is about someone's self-identification, which is a bit more malleable than the sex/gender they find attractive.
Also, While I'm pretty sure I've seen members of this movement identify as "ex-gay" on television (though I'm not trying to identify any individual, just make a generality), it doesn't take an expert to see the definition of ex-gay (no longer identifying as gay), see it occur with someone ("I'm no longer gay, guys") and apply the term to what you see, even if the person doesn't explicitly say "I am ex-gay"). Am I missing something here? — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 02:52, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I'd disagree with that. Some people, for instance, find that their sexual orientation is fluid and that a way they identify at one time might not be the way they identify at another time. This isn't the same thing as what "ex-gay" groups promote and that "ex-gay" figures say has happened, which is the idea that sexual orientation can be changed on compulsion. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 04:20, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm going off the definition provided in the article. The definition, people who "once considered themselves to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual but no longer assert that identity" is purely about self-identification. Even the other definition provided, that ex-gays are people who have had a "basic change in sexual orientation" is not incompatible with sexual orientation, which states that sexual orientation is broken down into categories that "are aspects of the more nuanced nature of sexual identity" and that sexual orientation is a self-identification based on several factors, only one of which is their actual sexual attraction to a particular sex. The articles homosexuality, heterosexuality, and Heterosexual–homosexual continuum also give credence to this notion that sexual orientation is sexual identity. I hesitate to advocate changing the definition to fit your desired wording of "identifies as ex-gay" because I've seen the same definition elsewhere, and changing it to fit a particular POV would be a bit too OR.
If your concern is that we not give undue support of the idea that people can change their sexual orientation/attractions just by willing it, perhaps we can add more to the lede. I think that the lede itself addresses your concern sufficiently, but maybe we can think of something to add. — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 12:56, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Again, given the fringe-y-ness of what these individuals claim has occurred, I don't think that we can just state in Wikipedia's voice that they have changed their sexual orientation. Maybe we can compromise (your wanting to say it's made of people, my concern about fringe) - how about we use your wording ("relies on the involvement of" and so on) but phrase it as "involvement of individuals who formerly..." rather than "involvement of ex-gay individuals, who..." and add "and state that they have caused their sexual orientation to change" or something similar? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 19:11, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
Yeah, I like that idea. Maybe something like: "The ex-gay movement relies on the involvement of individuals who formerly considered themselves to be gay, lesbian, or bisexual but no longer assert that identity; these individuals may either claim that they have eliminated their attraction to the same sex altogether or simply that they abstain from acting on such attraction." — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 19:33, 4 October 2012 (UTC)
I like it! Do you want to implement it or shall I? –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 23:27, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Recent changes...[edit]

Given that we've got an editor who's recently a) made a lot of serious changes to the article, and b) edit-warred to keep in some scare quotes and POV language, does it make more sense to go through all their edits with a fine-toothed comb, or simply revert to the version prior to their large batch of edits and ask them to start again? I haven't looked in detail at the edits--just popped up on my watchlist as a probable edit war, and it's pretty clear that Scientimom could use some policy-based guidance here. Jclemens (talk) 23:56, 17 March 2013 (UTC)

I thought the exact same thing when I looked over his edits over the last few days to this article. There's so much that's been changed and most of it violates our NPOV policy. Since there's so much then I think a revert to this edit [1] on the 28th of February is required to salvage this article before too many readers dismiss this article as POV filled. Govgovgov (talk) 00:10, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Revert. I should warn everyone that according to Alison, for the past several months Scientom was socking and logging out/in to make "controversial" edits. I can only assume the reason was to evade scrutiny.   little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer
17:39, 18 March 2013 (UTC)
Reverted. Can you link to where Alison said this, for the record? Jclemens (talk) 05:30, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Lede problems[edit]

I have just moved a large body of text from the lede which was independent from the article itself. It appears that Scientiom is trying to make sure that the Ex-gay articles are flooded with the information that it is a psudo-science. Now I have no problem with that information being there, but creating walls of text detailing those arguments is a violation of WP:WEIGHT even when we take into consideration that the scientific point of view has a privileged spot on wikipedia. Additionally Scientiom has been briefed on WP:LEDE several times and now it appears that they are just ignoring those conversations.Coffeepusher (talk) 13:44, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Erm, that was the version which you yourself mostly proposed. --Scientiom (talk) 16:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

please address the concerns on the talk page. That version was created with the understanding that you were trying to improve the encyclopedia, your recent edit made it clear that you were not interested in improving the encyclopedia or follow the rules but rather to push an extreme WP:POV.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:06, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
That allegation doesn't hold water considering that the version that was posted was mostly what you proposed yourself, and I've already briefed you on WP:PSCI, WP:WEIGHT, WP:VALID, and WP:FRINGE. --Scientiom (talk) 17:36, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
You were briefed on what was supposed to be in the lede, we both went over the policy that the lede can only contain information contained within the article, you had the exact same conversation on another page for the exact same reason, and then you went back to the ex gay movement page and inserted effectively the same edit that you and I had talked about when it didn't reference anything within the article. It's not an allegation.
I'm reposing this conversation on Talk:Ex-gay movement.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:45, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
Frankly, I'd like to know the problem with the edit - is all the text not properly and well sourced with high quality citations according to WP:V? Is it not in line with WP:PSCI, WP:WEIGHT, WP:VALID, and WP:FRINGE? --Scientiom (talk) 17:48, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
This edit adds 3921 charicters to the lede which doesn't summarize anything within the article. The article contains nothing about DOMA, or the Pan American health orgonization yet your addition almost doubles the size of the lede, overpowering the summary with detailed information regarding not only stuff not covered in the article, but detailed information which is critical of the topic of the article. This edit doesn't summarize the Pan American Health orgonization's statement, and makes that look like that event was a key moment in the ex-gay movement. We should note that you added that material after we worked on a summary together, I let it slide, and other editors removed it for the same reasons I have set up this talk discussion.Coffeepusher (talk) 17:59, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
We might note that this isn't the only time you have had this conversation. Talk:justice#Lede problem, and Talk:LGBT rights at the United Nations#The lead and opposition section, both pointed out the exact same policies about the lede sections that you and I discussed (I don't care if it was a banned editor, the policy quoted still stands). This shows that you already knew the problems with this edit. My only recourse is to assume that your WP:POV overrides your consideration of wikipedia policy, or that we are dealing with a WP:COMPETENCE issue.Coffeepusher (talk) 18:19, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Seriously Scientiom. WTF? You seem to have a grasp of various policies (when it suits your needs). You are heading towards a topic ban if you keep going down this path.  little green rosetta(talk)
central scrutinizer
22:57, 19 March 2013 (UTC)


The merging-as-a-result-of-AfD has dumped a whole lot of detail about OneByOne into this article. That group does not seem to have been a significant player in the field, and does not merit this depth of coverage, under WP:BALASPS. Can we come to consensus that most of it can be stripped out? --Nat Gertler (talk) 16:43, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I rather think so. The whole reason the group wasn't able to sustain an article was because they're completely non-notable; it's obvious that the weight given to their self-published claims is vastly undue. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 17:34, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I merged any relevant information in, and I have no opinion as to how much or little is appropriate. My goal was solely to move the information per the AfD result. Thargor Orlando (talk) 17:49, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
I see no harm in including it in the "other ex-gay organizations", as Roscelese revised it, but the organization does not merit anything beyond that. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 17:51, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

I encourage those who are undeleting material to join in this discussion. Material introduced by merge does not automatically protect it form consensus editing, and currently there are more editors who have indicated that this material should be deleted than there were who !voted in the AfD for merging. --Nat Gertler (talk) 22:25, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Having just reverted back to Roscelese's version, I would like to weigh in. The OneByOne article was deleted because it was not notable. Coatracking it on to a different article does not change the fact that it is not notable. Giving a not notable organization three paragraphs while the notable organization that started the ex-gay movement gets only one paragraph is giving it undue weight. If we allow the three paragraphs to stand -- or even just give it a single paragraph all its own -- we open the doors for proponents of every other non-notable self-described ex-gay ministry to add their own paragraph. I believe that we should stay focused on the movement itself and not irrelevant components: let it be mentioned in the "other groups" paragraph, and leave it at that. If other such groups start clamoring for a mention, we can select only those that are notable enough to have Wiki articles and exclude OneByOne and other non-notable organizations from that paragraph. TechBear | Talk | Contributions 23:14, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
While WP:NOTABILITY is not a guideline for inclusion of material in an article, I think WP:BALASPS very much applies. Inclusion of extensive material about a group that shows no sign of having significant impact on the subject would seem at odds with that guideline. --Nat Gertler (talk) 23:26, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Notability doesn't limit content within articlees per se, but the same guidelines that help us determine notability also help us determine due weight. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 23:28, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

In addition to the claim of consensus even in the AfD being dubious, it was based on false information. An editor claimed that that article had spun out of this one. That article was started in March of 2007. For all of that month, this article was a redirect. Before being switched to a redirect, this article had no reference to OneByOne in it. -Nat Gertler (talk) 02:27, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

1) If this was NOT one of the organizations spun out of this article in the past, I apologize for so mishcharacterizing it. Still, that does not override AfD consensus, as determined by an impartial administrator, which was to merge the content. If you want to argue that, you can talk to the closing admin or go to DRV. Likewise, characterizing the AfD outcome as deleting the content for lack of notability is an inaccurate characterization: the outcome was 'merge' not 'delete', and anything which has the de facto effect of deleting the to-be-merged material without an appropriate discussion is disruptive editing.
2) The deletion is only one way to meet WP:DUE, and of the possible ways, the most disruptive to our consensus process. The two alternatives would have been to a) add more sourced content about other Ex-gay movement organizations, or b) do an appropriate trim job, rather than a reduction from multiple paragraphs to one sentence. There's no hard and fast rule on that, but I'd say anything more than a 50% reduction would require a consensus discussion.
3) The big deal here was Roscelese's misconduct in both voting to delete the material, and then deleting it himself in defiance of the AfD outcome, which I notified him about here. I wouldn't normally feel compelled to bring this up, but that editor has chosen to both delete the warning from his talk page and participate in the discussion above without disclosing his misconduct. Jclemens (talk) 01:07, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
The content was merged, and now it is subject to consensus editing just like any other content in the article. You appear to be the only editor who objects to trimming it. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 01:14, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
Please retract your personal attack. At least one IP editor has disputed the trimming here, and for you to insinuate that I am editing while logged out to obfuscate consensus is entirely inappropriate. Jclemens (talk) 01:22, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
They can join the discussion like anyone else. I don't consider a drive-by edit while there's a discussion going on to be a participating editor. Calm down and stick to the subject. –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 01:30, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Regardless of what happened in the AfD, we have to ask whether there is consensus among editors at this article to include that content. It doesn't appear that any such consensus exists (I agree with the other editors who have removed the material). NB Jclemens, Roscelese is a her, not a him. FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 02:09, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Responding to Jclemens's numbered items:
  1. WP:Consensus can change. We are having a discussion here, and with four of the five participating editors in this discussion calling for removal of the material, it's pretty clear how this consensus is going.
  2. WP:DUE in no way applies to this material, as that guideline is discussing inclusion of minority viewpoints. OneByOne is not a viewpoint, and the viewpoint that they espouse seems to be basically the one covered in the article.
  3. Discussion of another user's handling of his talk page is not appropriate to this talk page. --Nat Gertler (talk) 02:19, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
It took Roscelese (split, not hung) all of 12 minutes to do her de facto deletion of the OneByOne material after Thargor merged it here, per AfD. Why waste everybody's time discussing it? Right, Roscelese? Just delete it if you don't like it. Sort of reminds me of her unilateral deletion of Virginia Society for Human Life back on 23 July. Her behavior in both cases is misconduct of a high-handed sort. I am not Jclemens, and I agree with everything he has said here (he knows more about it than you do). -- (talk) 05:34, 19 September 2013 (UTC) (Please feel free to call me Mr. IP—I'm hung, not split.)
Oh, it's just my latest harasser again. That makes things so much more clear. Hi there! –Roscelese (talkcontribs) 05:43, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── As the closing admin, I was asked if I wanted to comment. There's nothing within the merging guidelines that says everything has to be kept. Moving it all over first and then agreeing the right amount for the receiving article seems the most sensible way to approach this. Someone above commented that as part of the AfD there was comment that OneByOne had come out of this and should go back. Whether that was true or not was not relevant to my decision; there's no reason that a merge should only come from a split, so that is neither here nor there. If you want my personal view, a quick line or mention, such as it it as the moment seems reasonable, but I'm not an expert on the subject, just a casual reader. GedUK  12:08, 19 September 2013 (UTC)