Talk:Extreme weather events of 535–536
|WikiProject Meteorology||(Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)|
- 1 Simon Winchester
- 2 CE
- 3 References
- 4 New text moved here
- 5 Causes...
- 6 Weirdness!
- 7 El Nino
- 8 Steven Baxter
- 9 Hopewell
- 10 Article name
- 11 dates--CE
- 12 New Evidence
- 13 Name: Freak to Unusual
- 14 Some of what Procopius wrote, in context
- 15 Something on National Geographic you might want to check out
- 16 Further Reading
- 17 Removing Reference to the Plague of Justinian
- 18 "two-sigma age range"
- 19 Sources
The idea that Krakatau was responsible for these climate changes is also purported in Simon Winchesters book "Krakatoa".
Why, oh why, do some editors insist on imposing their own biased point of view? There were no CEs in this article. There is no need for them. All they do is to distract any display a bias on an unrelated issue. What is the point of "1816 CE"?--ClemMcGann 08:55, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
- Remember that Wikipedia is used by the whole world and many non-Christians prefer to use "C. E." ("Christian Era") rather than ("A. D."- "Anno Domini": "In the Year of the Lord"). CFLeon 23:05, 9 May 2006 (UTC)
- BCE may be necessary, but writing 1816 CE seems redundant. Isnt the entire world (save a miniscule minority) on the same calendar now? Writing "In 1816" should mean the same to everyone. -Runningonbrains 16:13, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
Through google print I found some more useful information about this alleged event. I added the references but haven't added anything to the article itself yet (there's certainly material to do so). However, I don't know how to get a "good" link to a particular page in google print. Whatever I do gives a link that highlights the search terms. Jdorje 01:10, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
New text moved here
This text was originally entered at Dark Ages, but belongs here. Im not sure how to integrate it Im not familiar with this topic. Please add this or parts as needed. Stbalbach 05:32, 19 September 2005 (UTC)
- Some recent theories suggest that the term "Dark Ages" was originally more literal than previously thought. Evidence suggests a gigantic volcanic eruption near Indonesia in about 535 AD. Presumably, the pyroclastic material expunged from the volcano, mixed with a large amount of seawater, rose into the atmosphere and formed a thick cloud-like layer; nearly 150 meters thick. This layer could have lasted nearly 15 years, and is predicted to have only 50% sunlight transmission. Thus the world would have, quite literally, been dark. The effects of reduced sunlight is great on crops, weather, and even mental well-being. Concievably, there would be a long period of suffering and recovery due to this phenomenon.
- Samples of ice cores in both Greenland and Antarctica suggest 6th century volcanic activity, and tree ring samples from around the world show about 15 years of improper growth around this time period. This not only suggests volcanic activity around this time, but also shows how widespread its effects were. A volcano between the islands of Sumatra and Java with a diameter of nearly 50 kilometers could have erupted and created modern day Krakatoa. The land connecting the two islands would have been part of the volcano caldera, totalling nearly 200 cubic kilometers. From typical volcano eruptions, it can be assumed that approximately 40% of this material was shot upwards in a giant plume of ash and dirt, taking with it a large amount of water. Upon reaching the higher levels of the atmosphere, this material would form tiny ice crystals and form a cloud layer well above typical clouds, thus being resistant to most weather changes. Ken Wohletz is to be credited with most of this theory.
Can anyone say why Keys and Wohletz' idea is not widely accepted? Are there any other suggestions as to why it happened? Are any of them widely accepted? The absense of any other proposals strikes me as a bit non-neutral, or at the very least incomplete... —Felix the Cassowary (ɑe hɪː jɐ) 04:34, 5 October 2005 (UTC)
- They are not widely accepted because they have no evidence whatsoever. However if you read through the Mike Baile book (in google print, though the link seems broken), there is a very interesting discussion of the possibilities. — jdorje (talk) 04:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
According to Gibbon and others the Mongolian migration occurred almost 150 years earlier than the so-called event. Atilla died around 460 and the Hun tribes lost their power. This error makes me doubt some of Keys' other findings. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kaleida (talk • contribs) .
- Well, Gibbon is an 18th century author and there has been a lot of research done about the Huns since - we don't even know who they are, there is so little evidence, I'm not sure how anyone can put a date to it. -- Stbalbach 14:39, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Volcanic eruption and cometary dust veil are not mutually exclusive. Both could have occurred at the same time.
This article is the endpath for a redirective article... with the exact, character-for-charcter, same name. I pasted both titles into a text document, and they are the same. What happened? HOW did it happen? Those interested should tell me on my user page; I don't think I'll be back this way again. -Litefantastic 00:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- A little late, but I asked Psychonaut (who created the redirect) and it was a change from a hyphen to an en-dash. He answers here. badmonkey 14:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not disputing the volcanic eruption theory, but I know that the demise of the Moche in South America has been attributed to some particularly bad "El Nino" events. Does anyone know if El Nino could explain the weather patterns at this time--Quarkstorm 11:32, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
The Steven Baxter connection seems tenuous and the whole reference feels out of place - I am sure one could find far more novelists who appear to allude to a similar event. Even so, what does this snippet add to the article besides fan-fare for Baxter?
I have also read (can't find the source right now, sorry) that the Native Americans of the Hopewell culture (100 B.C. - 500 or so A.D.) were possibly wiped out by this 535-536 A.D. climate event. I recall reading that the cold weather would have affected the fruit and nut trees on which the Hopewell depended and could have ended their culture. Would make an interesting addition to the page if anybody can confirm. Doppelbock 20:25, 16 June 2006 (UTC)
That most likely was my own book "Man and Impact in the Americas". As it was self published, it can not be cited following to wiki rules E.P. Grondine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.108.40.206 (talk) 19:01, 12 August 2010 (UTC)
There is a difference between climate and weather. Unusual weather in 2 consecutive years may be a symptom of a longer-term climate change, but to imply that all the change occurred in those two years is just plain wrong. The article itself suggests a variety of one-off causes. I suggest renaming to Freak weather events of 535-536 jnestorius(talk) 01:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)
I changed a bit in the first sentence to "535-536 CE". The reader needs some indication of whether we're talking about BCE or CE dates. I used CE rather than AD because the earliest version of the article to note the era used CE rather than AD (see here). For the applicable guideline see WP:DATE. --Akhilleus (talk) 03:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
- No need for CE in the title. Wikipedia Manual of Style, Dates, which you reference, says that when the AD/CE are omitted, then the default is clearly AD/CE. Hu 00:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
On 9/11/07 History Channel's Mega Disasters series featured the Krakatoa eruptions, including evidence from ice core samples that there was an eruption in 535. Searching terms 535 ice core samples krakatoa I got these three top links. I'm sure interested parties could find more info and put it in article.
- KRAKATOA VOLCANO ERUPTION: Super Volcano! History's Greatest Secret!
- Ancient climate change? Text - Physics Forums Library
- ScienceZ: Science Articles » Volcanoes
Name: Freak to Unusual
I suggest moving the article name to "Unusual weather events of 535-536". I'm sorry I did not see the original proposal, but "Freak" is much more colloquial a term, more common in North America than in world English. Though "freak" would probably be understood generally, it is less encyclopediac and less formal than "unusual". Hu 23:57, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
- "Unusual" weather seems inadequate to me. I think "extreme weather" sounds more, well, extreme. And there's even an article! jnestorius(talk) 14:21, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that "Extreme weather events of 535-536" is an excellent suggestion. Hu 02:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Some of what Procopius wrote, in context
[4-10] and Solomon in Carthage. And it came about during this year that a most dread portent took place. For the sun gave forth its light without brightness, like the moon, during this whole year, and it seemed exceedingly like the sun in eclipse, for the beams it shed were not clear nor such as it is accustomed to shed. And from the time when this thing happened men were free neither from war nor pestilence nor any other thing leading to death. And it was the time when Justinian was in the tenth year of his reign (536-537 A.D.)
At the opening of spring (536 A.D.), when the Christians were celebrating the feast which they call Easter, there arose a mutiny among the soldiers in Libya. I shall now tell how it arose and to what end it came.
After the Vandals had been defeated in the battle, as I have told previously, the Roman soldiers took their daughters and wives and made them their own by lawful marriage. And each one of these women kept urging her husband to lay claim to the possession of the lands which she had owned previously, saying that it was not right or fitting if, while living with the Vandals, they had enjoyed these lands, but after entering into marriage with the conquerors of the Vandals they were then to be deprived of their possessions. And having these things in mind, the soldiers did not think that they were bound to yield the lands of the Vandals to Solomon, who wished to register them as belonging to the commonwealth and to the emperor's house and said that while it was not unreasonable that the slaves and all other things of value should go as booty to the soldiers, the land itself belonged to the emperor and [10-17] the empire of the Romans, which had nourished them and caused them to be called soldiers and to be such, not in order to win for themselves such land as they should wrest from the barbarians who were trespassing on the Roman empire, but that this land might come to the commonwealth, from which both they and all others secured their maintenance. This was one cause of the mutiny. And there was a second, concurrent, cause also, which was no less, perhaps even more, effective in throwing all Libya into confusion. It was as follows: In the Roman army there were, as it happened, not less than one. thousand soldiers of the Arian faith; and the most of these were barbarians, some of these being of the Erulian nation. Now these men were urged on to the mutiny by the priests of the Vandals with the greatest zeal. For it was not possible for them to worship God in their accustomed way, but they were excluded both from all sacraments and from all sacred rites. For the Emperor Justinian did not allow any Christian who did not espouse the orthodox faith to receive baptism or any other sacrament. But most of all they were agitated by the feast of Easter, during which they found themselves unable to baptize their own children with the sacred water, or do anything else pertaining to this feast. And as if these things were not sufficient for Heaven, in its eagerness to ruin the fortunes of the Romans, it so fell out that still another thing provided an occasion for those who were planning the mutiny. For the Vandals whom Belisarius took to Byzantium were [17-23] placed by the emperor in five cavalry squadrons, in order that they might be settled permanently in the cities of the East; he also called them the "Vandals of Justinian," and ordered them to betake themselves in ships to the East. Now the majority of these Vandal soldiers reached the East, and, filling up the squadrons to which they had been assigned, they have been fighting against the Persians up to the present time; but the remainder, about four hundred in number, after reaching Lesbos, waiting until the sails were bellied with the wind, forced the sailors to submission and sailed on till they reached the Peloponnesus. And setting sail from there, they came to land in Libya at a desert place, where they abandoned the ships, and, after equipping themselves, went up to Mt. Aurasium and Mauretania. Elated by their accession, the soldiers who were planning the mutiny formed a still closer conspiracy among themselves. And there was much talk about this in the camp and oaths were already being taken. And when the rest were about to celebrate the Easter festival, the Arians, being vexed by their exclusion from the sacred rites, purposed to attack them vigorously. - Books 3 and 4, the wars with the Vandals, on Gutenberg project's server —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rickyrab (talk • contribs) 05:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Something on National Geographic you might want to check out
Hey everybody, I'm an unregistered user, sorry if I'm breaking some etiquette rules.
Here is something you might want to take a look at concerning this event:
I am interested in the article by Arjava, Antti (2006). "The Mystery Cloud of 536 CE in the Mediterranean Sources" However, it is not located in the book mentioned, "Thresholds of the Sacred." edited by Sharon Gerstel. Could you please update the Further Reading Section with where the article can be found. Ksh314 (talk) 21:01, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
Removing Reference to the Plague of Justinian
I am removing the bullet: "'An extraordinary plague throughout the world, which swept away the noblest third of the human race; 543 AD' - The Annals of the Four Masters", because it refers to the plague of Justinian, which is not a weather event, though it may have been influenced by the weather events discussed in this article. Paramecium13 (talk) 00:25, 20 September 2011 (UTC)
"two-sigma age range"
- It means two standard deviations on the normal curve, but how to translate it into a concrete percentage could depend on certain assumptions (95.45% probability if two-sided or symmetric)... AnonMoos (talk) 01:38, 11 June 2012 (UTC)