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Re: Inclusion Criteria[edit]

Mychele and I are at odds regarding whether or not this article needs to include the following information:

Fárbauti is grandfather of wolf Fenrir, serpent Jörmungandr, goddess Hel and god Narfi.

Mychele's argument is, as "this statement is true", it should be included. My argument is, as (a) there are no kennings or mythical references (to the best of my knowledge) linking any of these beings directly to Fárbauti, and (b) all of these relationships follow over Fárbauti's son, Loki, and are really thus notable in reference to the latter rather than the former, the information, while factually correct, is simply superfluous trivia in this article.

In order to prevent an unnecessary squabble from arising here, I'd like to get some feedback from other interested editors. --Aryaman (talk) 17:31, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Agreed, while it is correct, it is not relevant for this particular article. –Holt (TC) 21:35, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, I must agree, but Hel, Midgard serpent and other Loki's children are very interesting and important figures in myths, so, when we wrote that they are linked to Farbauti he also became more important in some way (grandpa of monsters!). But it's true that this is maybe not so important. I mention that because I wanna describe who are figures in Farbauti's family, and they are like him, monsters (well, Hel is goddess).--Mychele (talk) 16:34, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

I've rewritten most of the article to reflect the actual attestations for the figure. Please remember to keep in mind that we have to stick to precisely what the sources say. Sometimes they conflict and sometimes they're outright confusing. When we start putting together family trees without noting exactly which source says what, this can lead to a big, confused mess very easily. :bloodofox: (talk) 17:21, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for putting in the time needed to look up the attestations, bloodofox. I added headers and did some minor tweaking for style, etc. I doubt much more needs to be done here, really. Good job everyone. Cheers, --Aryaman (talk) 17:46, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Not a problem at all. One step closer to getting all Germanic mythology articles to B-class or greater! :bloodofox: (talk) 18:11, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
Farbauti and Laufey are only known attested parents of Loki, so naturally, they are grandparents of Loki's children. I think you agree with that statement.--Mychele (talk) 08:47, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Mychele, no one is doubting the verity of the assertion. The question for us as editors is whether this information belongs in the article. Does the statement "Fárbauti is the grandfather of Hél" tell us anything about Fárbauti that we don't already learn through the statement "Fárbauti is the father of Loki"? No. Other than the fact that they are related through Loki, there is nothing connecting Fárbauti and Hel. Thus, in this article, mentioning it is unnecessary and doing so becomes superfluous. --Aryaman (talk) 09:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, off course. I don't know why, but it seems that someone conecct Farbauti with Bergelmir - Farbauti. Is there any proper source for that?--Mychele (talk) 09:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

If you're referring to the Theosophical Dictionary, please note that the TS is not a reliable, scholarly source for anything other than the beliefs of the TS.
Regarding the inclusion of Helblindi and Byleistr in this article, I'm undecided: the Gylfaginning mentions all these characters in one breath, though it does not make explicit that Helblindi and Byleistr are also sons of Fárbauti. I'll look up Kock (1899) and see if there's anything there to help decide that one way or the other. --Aryaman (talk) 09:44, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Rydberg (2003:24) thought that Helblindi and Byleistr were also sons of Fárbauti:

Loki and his brothers, Helblindi and Byleist, are the sons of the hurricane and thunder-giant Farbauti ("harmful striker").

However, Rydberg also had no qualms equating Loki and Loge/Logi, and thus equated the triad Loki-Helblindi-Byleistr with the triad Loge-Hlér-Kari as an elemental triad representing "Fire" (Loki/Loge), "Water" (Hlér/Helblindi), and "Air" (Kari/Byleistr). As Hlér is sometimes used as a name for Aegir, Rydberg equates these as well.
There's also an entry in Sykes (2002:85):

Helblindi: In Nordic myth the son of Farbauti and brother of Loki.

There seems to be no explicit attestation in any source literature of Loki's brothers also being sons of Fárbauti. However, the claim is not exactly unfounded speculation, and sources - though on the thin side - can be cited to support it. Thus, we could make an argument for mentioning them as sons of Fárbauti in this article (though with the caveat that this is scholarly speculation, and not attested in any source literature). What do others think? --Aryaman (talk) 10:22, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, we can at least make one mention of them.--Mychele (talk) 10:31, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I think that this is exactly how we should go about it. :bloodofox: (talk) 10:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I've added the relevant information and tweaked the text accordingly - hopefully to everyone's satisfaction. If anything else in the way of sources can be found, please don't hesitate to mention them. Cheers, --Aryaman (talk) 11:29, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Fine work as always, Aryaman. Thanks! :bloodofox: (talk) 11:50, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, ineed! Look this - we started this talkpage about his grandchildren, and now we have greate page! :)--Mychele (talk) 14:45, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Agreed, it's always good to see article improvement come out of disagreement. :) :bloodofox: (talk) 17:50, 13 July 2010 (UTC)