Talk:Fasces

Untitled

Blessed, or injured? (blessé = injured in French) -phma

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I am not sure about the triumph thing -- Davidme

Cincinnatus

I've added the image of Cincinnatus, but I'm not sure if it is too much for the page -- some people don't like multiple pictures in a small article. I thought it was a good illustration of the object; what do you think? Rdikeman 23:02, Apr 16, 2004 (UTC)

Cincinnatus is important.

I think the inclusion of Cincinnatus is important. What about including a link to or information about the Society of the Cincinnati ?

Some text about the occasion in Cincinnatus' career and the significance of the portrayed gesture is essential. Anyone want to give this a paragraph? The connection between Roman Cincinnatus and the Society of the Cincinnati should be explained at Society of the Cincinnati, but not here at Fasces: too peripheral. --Wetman 18:34, 11 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Two superfluous images

File:HouseofRepresentatives.jpg

Two fasces on either side of the Flag of the United States and the Speaker of the House of Representatives in the United States House of Representatives represent the power of the lower house and the country

[[Image:colorado_seal.jpg|thumb|right|The fasces appears on the state seal of Colorado, USA. It is beneath the All-seeing eye and above the mountains and mines.]] In trying to format this article, I moved these two images here, at the risk of offending some US patriots. The fasces in them are almost impossible to see and they add no additional information. When there's more text, these could find space again, perhaps. --Wetman 06:08, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

Offense be damned. The one on the seal of Colorado is quite visible. Alphax ^τεχ 06:06, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

The "Mercury Dime" one is silly. Alphax ^τεχ 23:36, 8 August 2005 (UTC)

Fasces on the reverse of a US "Mercury" dime ((1916– 1945)

The colorado seal one is visible, the US House is visible enough but less so. They should be added in that order as the article is expanded. Thanks for moving them here instead of deleting them. savidan^{(talk) (e@)} 20:27, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Someone removed the Lincoln Statue... [ælfəks] 11:03, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

French Coat of Arms

Just a question: there is a fasces in the French Coat of Arms? Look! --Nkcs 04:59, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

A fasces in the French Coat of Arms?

Alternative Fasces

I remember seeing an illustration of a fasces used as a papal symbol. It was from a book on the history of Christianity, whose name I have forgotten, but it was part of a frieze. The interesting this about this fasces was that it used a candle in place of an axe... Anyone know anything else about this?

List of Symbols Containing the Fasces

In the interest of keeping the main un-cluttered would it be a good idea to make a seperate article called "List of Symbols Containing Fasces"? I think it would be immensely helpful for resaerchers of symbolism to have a list of images containing the fascses (or any symbol for that matter), as a reference and also to be able to compare and contrast different usages. 24.18.35.120 01:52, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Clarification

Could you clarify this sentence?

"The following cases all involve the adoption of the fasces as a symbol or icon; no actual physical re-introduction as a (highly symbolic) implement."

I understand the first part-- the examples given involve the adoption of the fasces as a symbol-- however I don't understand the second part. Maybe the sentence could be clarified by someone who ascertains the intended meaning? Thanks. --24.18.35.120 01:59, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

OK, I read the whole article and now it makes more sense. I take it the meaning is that although the symbol has been used in modern times, modern organizations have not physically re-introduced actual axes bundled in sticks. So, I changed the sentence to read "The following cases all involve the adoption of the fasces as a symbol or icon; no actual physical re-introduction has occured." It was the "as a (highly symbolic) implement" part that I didn't understand. --24.18.35.120 02:07, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

United States Senate

Where on this seal is a fasces? The article states a pair of fasces is on the Seal of the United States Senate. Arx Fortis 19:03, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Italian Aircraft Insignia During WWII

I don't have the time at the moment to do a proper write-up, but I suggest the use of the fasces in Italian aircraft insignia during WWII should be added.

For example, a quick search found this page with these images: [1], [2], and [3].

--Shawn D. 15:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Two questions about fasces

1. When and why were the two gold fasces placed on the wall behind the Speaker's rostrum in the U.S. House of Representatives?

2. Why do the fasces carved on the arms of Abraham Lincoln's seat in the Lincoln Memorial not include the traditional axe? 76.105.60.93 22:57, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

The axe bundled among the fasces is the emblem of authority over life-or-death, which is not in the President's power, only the Justices. The axe was sometimes omitted in Roman iconography too. In an imperial funeral relief the deceased might stand in a two-horse chariot, preceded or followed by two or three lictors carrying fasces without the axe. --Wetman 00:13, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Wow, snap. I'm impressed. --mordicai. 00:18, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

A further answer to your question about the axe:

In Ancient Rome, no weapons were allowed inside the Pomerium, the sacred borders of the city center. Thus, the Lictors were allowed to carry fasces, but without the axes. Only the Lictors assigned to guard a Dictator were allowed to carry fasces with axes attached inside the Pomerium, and the Lictors for all other officials (even including Consuls) were not allowed the axe because of the legal/religious law against weaponry inside what were thought to be the boundaries of the original Rome as founded by Romulus. --(I'm not a registered user...I edit Wikipedia in my spare time to help make sure that there are no blatant mistatements of facts, and to contribute minute details about this and that). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.131.16.176 (talk) 06:33, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Presence of Fasces found elsewhere in America

Fasces can be found behind Moses Ezekiel's statue representing Religious Liberty. It was erected in 1876 in Fairmount Park by the Order B'nai B'rith and Israelites of America in commemoration of the centennial of American Independence.

Nefertiti, the bronze Statue of Freedom by Thomas Crawford is the crowning feature of the dome of the United States Capitol. The lower part of the statue's base is decorated with fasces and wreaths.

I am nearly positive that there are representations of axe-less fasces above the matching doors in the Eastern and Western walls of the Oval Office--I have seen them in photos. I thought you may want to know this because I added a note about it to the actual article, and you may want to remove it to here until this can be verified, because it's just my own speculation, and I haven't done the appropriate research to state that they are fasces for sure. (this is the same anonymous editor as before, the one who wrote about why the fasces are sometimes depicted without axes.)

(from the same guy as the preceding statement. How do you register as an editor, by the way?) Look at the reverse of the old (non-state quarter series) quarter. It looks as if the Eagle is clutching either a bundle of arrows, or an axe-less fasces.

SO why not register and NOT be an annon editor? It's somehow easier to have these discussions with a name than a number, even f there is no real identity involved. Carptrash 14:18, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Oh yes. What's with the Neffertiti name above? Statue of Freedom has a lot of discussion about the name of the work, feel free to jump in. There are pretty good shots of thatwork's fasces too. Carptrash 14:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

The Seal of the USA has been an Eagle clutching arrows in one claw for a long time. I suspect that's what's on your quarter. When you get here [4] or any other wikipedia entry point you have an option in the top right to Sing in or Create an Account. Click on it an try it. I've never suspected that there are any negative effects from doing it and I've been registered for years, Carptrash 14:22, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Italy

I don't have the sources or time at my disposal at the moment, but there must absolutely be a more developed section on the use of the fasces as a political symbol in Fascist Italy. With regards to France, mention of the Francisque (a fasces of sorts based on the Frankish axe) - a symbol of, and medal awarded by, the Vichy government - should also be included.99.240.139.189 (talk) 23:54, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Article is way too focused on American usage

This article shows an excess amount of pictures and information of American usage. The fasces is used in France. Also it gives little information about the political use of the fasces by Fascist Italy. This article needs serious work. User:R-41

I see no excess of American content here, but I do agree that there is a dearth of information from Europe. Since I have been tracking fasces in architecture in the United States for 20 years or so I will continue adding it as seems appropriate. Fly me to France and/or Italy and I will do the same there. I did spend a chunk of one trip to Rome looking for (among things) vestiges of fascist remains there and found very little. Carptrash 19:28, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

I am attempting to add to French content to the article. I would not be surprised if someone shows up pointing out that whatever content I have extrapolated from these images is opinion, bordering on original research and that even though the publications date from 1910 and 1912 they are still not okay to use because French copyright law is based on the Napoleonic Code, etc. Still, it is a good faith attempt on my part to add more non-American content to the article. Carptrash 14:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

What is the pronunciation of Fasces? English pronunciation: /ˈfɑːˌʃez/, English pronunciation: /ˌfæˈʃez/, English pronunciation: /ˈfæsˌkez/, other? --The Chairman (Shout me · Stalk me) 06:59, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

The c is silent. The a is as in fat.--Wetman 09:08, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

In other words FASS-ease, English pronunciation: /'fæsi:z/. Flapdragon 18:52, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

"Bundle of Sticks" Lou Sander 01:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

A red ribbon?

"...a bundle of birch rods tied together with a red ribbon..." A red ribbon? Where would this idea have come from? --Wetman (talk) 07:47, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Who the hell...

Is Joe Mita? What is the relevance? Where is the source? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot? Somebody unfuck this, I'm away for a bit.

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KomradeDave160.133.1.228 (talk) 21:21, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

this article has taken a major hit

and while the editor involved might have a point, cutting out huge sections of the article rather than demanding sources, for example, seems heavy handed and excessive. Almost, fascist in his/her use of unilateral force. Or not? What do others here thing/feel? Carptrash (talk) 18:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

If it was unsourced, see: WP:PROVEIT. :bloodofox: (talk) 20:23, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:Knights of Columbus color enhanced vector kam.svg

The image Image:Knights of Columbus color enhanced vector kam.svg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --04:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Rods = switches?

I read somewhere (possibly Are We Rome, admittedly not a scholarly work of history) that as the axe symbolized the states's right to execute criminals, the rods may have originally represented switches - lesser punishments. IIRC, the source even suggested that the fasces was originally practical, and would be unbundled from time to time so as to use its components to flog or decapitate guilty parties. Was this idle speculation, or has any historian ever seriously suggested this? Fishal (talk) 05:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

There's a recent discussion of this idea, along with citations, in this Language Log entry. Brennen (talk) 22:27, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

i cut this out and moved it here

, which features two fasces flanking the rostrum in the House of Congress.

because there is no " House of Congress " and the section on the USA probably coveres what this editor might have intended. Carptrash (talk) 14:09, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

On old Mercury head US Dimes reverses Fasces

erhaps mentioned in article? Didnt see it .On the old Mercury(think its actually called Winged Freedom) Dimes of late 1900s There are Fasces . I suppose because of the federal Goverments "Power"? never heard why they were there . Thnaks Merci'(datedEvePMWed.Sept16th2009,21stcent, By Dr. Edson Andre' Johnson D.D.ULC."X") ANDREMOI (talk) 03:17, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

The Mercury dime is mentioned in the The fasces in the United States section. Carptrash (talk) 16:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Origin and Symbolism

The description, as well as the accompanying picture, don't seem right to me. First, I've never heard of a fasces with two axes. A double-headed axe is relatively common but it is always described as such, not as two separate axes. Second, the image, which is a nice picture someone took the time to create, assumedly for this article, shows the axe tied to the outside of the bundle where the traditional description and depictions in heraldry show the axe handle being surrounded by the bundle of rods, the primary reason for its symbolism of strength (edit) Digging a little deeper, I see that this version seems most often associated with fascism and Mussolini and that the creator of the original artwork is Italian. It makes sense that his version is that which is most familiar to him. I wonder now if that particular version of the fasces placed the axe on the outside of the bundle for a reason. --SEWalk (talk) 03:34, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

A contentious alternative interpretation

I have for years taken this object as symbolizing "unifying authority". On the other hand "Strength (or victory) through unity", to my way of thinking, far more communitarian / communalistic.

Note the etymology in fess: "In heraldry, a fess or fesse (from Middle English fesse, from Old French, from Latin fascia, "band")" This article calls out "bundle", viz.: "the Latin word fascis, meaning "bundle". I'll suggest as alternative, "That which is banded together." In fascine, for example, the phenomenological efficacy of the thing arises from the fact that the items are banded together rather than loose.

I bring this up for a single reason: Hitler inspired his co-conspirators with an elemental notion, that "banding" is the primordial operator i.e. a "bundle" can be empowered by the "band" of group hatred, the in-group / out-group dynamic. This was core to Italian Fascism, but see where the empahsis gets placed: "The fasces was a prominent symbol of Mussolini's Fascist Party and the movement was named for the axe and rods." Was it really? According to who's words? And would you accept Mussolini or Hitler or Goebbel's word for it? Would they actually share their core inspiration? Part of their method is systematic deceit! Individualism who find themselves (quite properly) inspired by communalistic ideals should bear this in mind.

So I bring it up here to bring it to the attention of the "Fascism" project on Wikipedia.

(Rambling because I am rushing!)

ATTN: WikiProject Fascism

--BenTremblay (talk) 20:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)