Talk:Fasting

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Youtube spam links?[edit]

How were my links to two You Tube videos "spam links"?

Biblequiz/Aaron 1~1~2012 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biblequiz (talkcontribs) 23:47, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

These appear to be your own videos - per WP:SPAM, you should be careful about promoting your own material in this way. But a layperson's self-published personal YouTube videos are problematic sources regardless, and simply cannot be regarded as reliable sources for any claims they might make about the effectiveness or safety of fasting. --McGeddon (talk) 00:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
But no claims are made about the effectiveness or safety of fasting, and virtually every day is documented. Biblequiz (talk) 00:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
The woman's own YouTube video is not a reliable source for the fact that her appearance is the result of a 40-day fast consuming only water. The article might well benefit from a better illustration of the visible effects of fasting, but we should use images from a reliable source. --McGeddon (talk) 00:42, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure there could be a more reliable source than a daily documentation. Also, what doctor or professional 'reliable source' is going to sanction an official study on the effects of 3 consecutive forty day water fasts, necessary to achieve that level of proof. So this footage is virtually the only source of this information in the world, possibly ever. Biblequiz (talk) 00:57, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
I have no idea what medical research has been done in this area, but WP:SPS very clearly rules out the use of a self-published source here. If someone's made a personal YouTube diary of exceptional scientific interest, they should take it to a newspaper or a medical journal, not to Wikipedia. --McGeddon (talk) 01:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Aaron. I've watched ALL of his videos and there are no "claims" being made; his wife simply notes the symptoms and feelings that SHE is experiencing. The photo should be included here. Especially with the depiction of the emaciated figure of the stone statue that is included because it shows that the practice of extreme fasting is still taking place. That in itself, is relevant to anthropology, something a viable encyclopedia wouldn't exclude. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.51.126.185 (talkcontribs) 21:14, January 14, 2012

Wikipedia policy is clear on this, regarldess of if claims are being made are not, self-published sources cannot be used in Wikipedia. A consensus of users above also state it so please refrain from adding the material to the page again. Regards, -- Jeff3000 (talk) 03:32, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but "Self-published or questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves"74.192.11.70 (talk) 18:31, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and the next few sentences of WP:SELFPUB go on to say that such material may be used in this manner only if "the material is neither unduly self-serving nor an exceptional claim" (it appears to be both, as it was originally added by the husband of the woman in the video, and by his own admission it is a very rare claim). I have removed the images and links again. --McGeddon (talk) 20:27, 16 August 2012 (UTC)
I've just reverted User:173.11.184.65 adding this in again. To add to my last comment - this article has no other reason to write about Olivia Cohen, so we do not need to reach for self-published sources. If newspapers and journals had written about her, we could possibly use these videos to pick out some additional details, but as it stands it's simple original research to include their claims here. It would be original research to add "Olivia Cohen survived three 40-day fasts consuming only water and looked a lot thinner" as a sentence in the article, with only her YouTube diary as a reference; it's the same when added in the form of a captioned image. --McGeddon (talk) 13:49, 22 October 2012 (UTC)

O.K., I read this whole thing and you are starting to sound obsessed with this woman. I work for a news station, and you're telling me that if I decide to write a package (TV segment) about this woman or interview her it automatically becomes Wikipedia eligible? I put this under "Complications", which are visible with the naked eye, regardless of any claims. And if you think that there is some way she attained that physical appearance without fasting, or that it is faked somehow, you are out of your mind. This is the internet age. Video is how our generation documents or proves things. Even my doctor friends view internet videos at their conferences. I guarantee this will never happen again, and to leave it off of Wikipedia is a loss to Wikipedia. What does it benefit the world not to have accesss to this on Wikipedia, the premier destination of knowledge because of other internet users? I put this under Fasting: Health Efects: Complications; which is where it belongs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fasting1! (talkcontribs) 12:28, 21 July 2013 (UTC) Fasting1! (talk) 12:33, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

I can't speak for McGeddon, but I'm not concerned that it was faked. I am concerned, however, that Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information and that mentioning this specific case puts undue weight on it in the article. It would be much better if we had some third party citation, so we know that the media at large or the medical community took notice of this. - MrOllie (talk) 13:04, 21 July 2013 (UTC)
I'm not concerned that it's fake, I'm simply making sure that Wikipedia does not give medical advice to its readers without very, very strong sources: "it is vital that the biomedical information in all types of articles be based on reliable, third-party, published sources and accurately reflect current medical knowledge". A woman saying "I fasted for 40 days, and look at me!" on YouTube is not a reliable, third-party, published source. --McGeddon (talk) 09:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

"ramadan" health benefits do not seem probable[edit]

they avoid eating in the daytime, but they eat all they wish after the sun sets, until dawn. frankly, this does not even appear to be fasting, but merely a "reversed time" eating system. the effects on the body should be similar to daytime eating, or worse due to the sudden consumption of large meals.

http://news.yahoo.com/skipping-breakfast-may-increase-heart-attack-risk-210037837.html

1. This is not a forum 2. The study above is epidemiological, correlational (i.e. unusable garbage). 3. There have been quite a few Ramadan studies, the bulk of them pointing at improved blood lipid profiles and other measurements, although the quality of most of these studies is questionable, of course. There was a meta-study of Ramadan studies - if anyone can recall the title or the author's name, perhaps we could incorporate it into the article instead of dealing with numerous Ramadan studies separately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.124.196.115 (talk) 03:23, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

The study on habitually skipping breakfast (scientific journal cite in a later section) is not directly applicable to fasting in general, and is of very doubtful applicability to the Ramadan fast, since in Ramadan one commonly arises well before dawn so as to pray, then to eat a substantial breakfast, all before sunrise, and from there to either continue with the day or go back to bed for some additional sleep. Nonetheless, a number of studies have found that the Ramadan daylight fast does indeed improve cholesterol profiles.Ocdnctx (talk) 17:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)
Added clarification of nature of Ramadan fast into article, lest some soul think it means a 40-day and 40-night fast would be safe, based on a misunderstanding of Ramadan. Ocdnctx (talk) 16:53, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Article is too long. Carve out new separate article on fasting in various religions[edit]

The comparative religion stuff is fascinating, but of limited use to one interested in the other parts of the article (e.g., recent reliable research on what fasting practices are safe and beneficial).

The medical part of the article seems seriously underdeveloped.

New general "Fasting" article should include a short summary section to the effect that fasting has long been a part of many religious traditions, with a pointer to the separate comparative religion, article with a title such as, e.g.,

Fasting for religious purposes

Eating breakfast was associated with significantly lower CHD risk in a cohort of male health professionals.[edit]

A medical citation for the above breakfast-eating article is

Cahill et al.

Prospective Study of Breakfast Eating and Incident Coronary Heart Disease in a Cohort of Male US Health Professionals

Circulation. 2013; 128: 337-343

doi: 10.1161/​CIRCULATIONAHA.113.001474

Full free text

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/128/4/337.full

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/128/4/337.short?rss=1

Complications[edit]

The article begins with some general definitions of fasts taken from a physiological perspective. Each definition includes a time frame that helps distinguish one from another (e.g. overnight, 3-5 hours, 8-12 hours, 8-72 hours.) The next part of the article under the subtitle 'complications' is referencing a kind of prolonged fasting that isn't covered in the introduction. This kind of fasting is being called 'fast-induced starvation', which, according to the reference cited to substantiate that cardiac arrhythmias can occur during 'fast-induced starvation', takes place over an interval 20 times longer than the longest lapse mentioned in the introduction. The discrepancy between the initial definitions and the subsequent section are significant enough to cause confusion in the reader, as they are addressing two different things entirely. I am suggesting that either the term 'fast-induced starvation' be placed in the introduction with an explanation of what it is, with an appropriate time frame associated with it (the only cited study suggests 2-8 months) and be given its own list of 'complications' or that the leading paragraph of the section 'complications' be removed from the article entirely.

This section is confusing fasting with malnutrition. The cited reference is a study of a diet. The following are the opening sentences of the wikipedia article on malnutrition,

'Malnutrition is the condition that results from eating a diet in which certain nutrients are lacking, in excess (too high in intake), or in the wrong proportions.[1][2] The verb form is "malnourish"; "malnourishment" is sometimes used instead of "malnutrition". A number of different nutrition disorders may arise, depending on which nutrients are under- or over-abundant in the diet....In wealthier nations it is more likely to be caused by unhealthy diets with excess energy, fats, and refined carbohydrates. A growing trend of obesity is now a major public health concern in lower socio-economic levels and in developing countries as well.[5]'

The opening paragraph in 'complications' could serve better in the general article of 'malnutrition'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Iamshoe (talkcontribs) 06:48, 23 April 2014 (UTC)