Talk:Father Christmas

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Is Santa real?

What is Father Christmas's name in other languages?

Chloe age 6

Chloe, look at the page for Santa Claus and Christmas worldwide. Those pages should help you out. Cheers, Rowlan 15:19, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

- The equivalent in French is Pere Noel, in Spanish Papa Noel. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:04, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

==

Someone has added a whole bunch of Irish/Santa Claus links. I'm not sure I see the relevance of these links apart from someone attempting to push their own political agenda. The page already has a link the Santa Claus page. Any Santa Claus references should be added to that page. I dread to think that someone has added these links to introduce the Ireland/UK debate/argument onto the page. Anyone object to me removing the Irish Santa Claus links? Dbnull 15:11, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

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Suggestion to add a link to the Green Man, there are legends that claim Father Christmas derives from the Green Man. Hence, his original apparel being Green robes. Dbnull 15:43, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

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Wow, for such a prominent article, this needs work. Can anybody provide any sources on this pagan origin? Like, for example, whether it was Anglo-Saxon or Celtic? --Saforrest 22:10, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

==

I read the article and it did not make sense as written. What it says was Father X, Santa & St. Nicolas are the same thing - but they are completely different. I hope the addition makes sense. I was tempted to put in the Danish for father Christmas as Julman (I think that's how its spelt) - however I don't know the history.

==

I think it makes perfect sense. Father Christmas and Santa Claus perform the same role, but have different origins.

[edit] Should we just merge this with Santa Claus?

And this Image is on both pages!

--Greasysteve13 09:50, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

No, there are very distinct differences between the 2 figures. Santa Claus has origins from a religious context, Father Christmas has origins from a pagan context. They may have many similarities as their roles have merged through cultural merging over time, but they are distinct figures. As an encyclopedia it would be misleading to join the articles; people searching for information on either figure would be presented with a single article trying to differentiate the two. Maybe, a separate article (disambiguation) could be written that tackles precisely the differences between the two. Each article for Santa Claus and Father Christmas deserves to link to each other, but I would vote against merging the two articles into one. Dbnull 15:02, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay... my mistake... I guess. I'm from Australia where the two terms are synonymous.--Greasysteve13 06:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

'Father Christmas' is rarely used in Australia, as far as I know (and I've lived in that country since birth in 1953). He's 'Santa Claus' except, in the main, to some very old people. Even Australian author and poet Henry Lawson, writing in the 19th Century, referred to Santa Claus. I would suggest the text of this article be reconsidered. 203.220.141.36 07:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Okay. But in Australia the two terms are still synonymous--Greasysteve13 14:19, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

As someone else who lived in Australia for many, many years, I disagree strongly: Father Christmas is very common and just as normal as Santa Claus. Possibly this is not true among young (i.e. very American-influenced) people so much any more, but I wouldn't know how you could count that. As far as I'm concerned they're simple synonyms.

[edit] Father Christmas is a name used in the United Kingdom (although not in Scotland), Australia, New Zealand and several other Commonwealth Countries, as well as Ireland...

What do they say in Scotland then?--Greasysteve13 06:06, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

from my experiance on scotland they call him father christmas. This is the first I've heard of people in scotland not referring to him as father christmas Ydam 23:29, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought it was rubbish--Greasysteve13 14:22, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

I live in Scotland and most people I know refer to him as Santa (Claus), not Father Christmas. I'm in Ayrshire. Maybe a regional thing? Duncan McAlister 00:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I am Irish (republic) and I have never heard an Irish child call him Father Christmas. The usual term used among English-speakers in Ireland is Santa Claus, Santa or Santy. This is the standard in the mass media here, too. Of course, many Irish children know that "Father Christmas" is what the English call Santa, because they hear that term on British television channels, but it is not well established in popular usage. Mind you, it may well be that children and media in Northern Ireland use the traditional English term. As stated elsewhere, the name "Daidí na Nollag", meaning literally "Daddy of Christmas", is used in Irish Gaelic. I wonder what he's called in Scots Gaelic? And what do the Welsh call him, in English or Welsh? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Julemand (talk • contribs) 11:22, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

The difference is that Christmas wasn't a big thing in Scotland, except for Catholic families, until the Sixties. So by the time the figure was really on the cultural radar, the American name "Santa Claus" was already increasingly popular even in England. I grew up in Scotland and Santa was the more popular name, certainly by the Eighties (though I was aware that he was also called Father Christmas, and I never thought of it in those days as a specifically English name for him). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.18.21 (talk • contribs)

Yet another sign of the overwhelming Americanization of the culture of English-speaking Ireland, or just a manifestation of "if that's what the English say, we'd better be different"? As much as I sympathize with the latter sentiment, Daidí na Nollag is, surely, Father Christmas -- not that Hollywoodized "Santa" figure? Don't throw the baby of our common European culture away with the anti-English bathwater, say I (with apologies for the POV-ness, but season's greetings to you all). -- Picapica (talk) 13:33, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Apology accepted. I understand your point, but we are not the guardian of culture, any more than we are here to provide a highlight to the ills and injustices of the world. Our task is to document those parts of it that someone else has chosen to guard or illuminate, remaining neutral in the process. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 16:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

By way of further apology, Arcayne, I fully understand your point too: I wasn't really proposing any change to the article as it stands; just airing one of my pet grievances to no practical purpose – as I know one is not supposed to do on a Talk page. (Excess of Christmas spirit..!) -- Picapica (talk) 19:32, 28 December 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I live in England, and "Santa Claus" is used a lot now. 80.41.116.173 (talk) 11:48, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Father XMas image change

Please change the picture - use the Father Christmas from The LIon, the Witch, and the Wardrobe instead, I beseech! Das Baz 15:58, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Image is of Santa Claus

The image on the page at the moment is the traditional American one of Santa, not that of Father Christmas. Can we find a more appropriate one?--MichaelMaggs 17:33, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, that image is labelled as 'a classic American image of Santa Claun' on the Santa Article. I've replaced it with the woodcut; it may not look much like people picture Father Christmas nowadays but at least it is him. Mon Vier 19:10, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Pagan Origins' poorly documented

Multiple links to that Dawn Coperman web article are hardly adequate citation for a claim of pagan origins. Coperman gives no references at all for her claims of a Saxon 'King Winter' or 'King Frost' figure. And a link to a Google Book search with the word 'pagan' highlighted is likewise hardly adequate. Cavalorn 19:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

previous claims within the history section that evidence of father christmas having pagan origins are scarce, and unlikely are unsourced and not backed up by its citations and personally motivated seeing that this article only had two contrary citations. i have researched and changed this section so as not to be a POV rant. and have specified all pagan origins as just "characteristic" influences to father christmas. which is worthy of the history section.Some thing 19:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Australia?

The page says that "Father Christmas" is used in Australia. I was born in Australia, and have lived here all my life, and have very rarely heard people call him "Father Christmas". We call him "Santa" in Australia. Both names are understood to mean the same 'person' but "Father Christmas" is rarely used. It is similar to the American "Flashlight" and Australian "Torch". Both are the same thing, and we understand both to mean the same thing, but we use "Torch". So back to the point, why does this page say that Australia uses "Father Christmas", and where is the 'evidence' for it? --- 60.240.5.123 01:04, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Well like you just said people do use the term father christmas in Australia. It may not be the predominant term but the article doesnt claim that it is. YDAM TALK 08:02, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

I'd actually have to disagree. I have lived in Australia my entire life and the only person I have ever heard call him "Father Christmas," and that is my own mother, who was brought up in England. In that sense you could name just about every country, because there's always bound to be a small population of people who call him "Father Christmas" - whichever country you're talking about. 97198 05:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm a third generation Australian. As a child in the 60s and 70s he was always referred to as "Father Christmas" during local events. Even now the local CFA refer to bringing "Santa" in on the Fire truck as a "Father Christmas run". I'd say we used to call him Father Christmas but with the glut of US based TV on the screens Santa has become the name he is known by.~ Brother William 13:12, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Names in various countries

The term 'Father Christmas' is used in translation in many countries
I don't understand what this sentence is supposed to mean ? And maybe these names should be ordered to depict their meaning, like this, for exemple:
Father Christmas: Brazil ("Papai Noel"), Bulgaria ("Dyado Koleda"), France and French Canada ("le Père Noël"),
Saint Nicholas: Hungary ("Mikulás"), Malta ("San Niklaw"),Poland ("Święty Mikołaj"),
Old man of Christmas: Latvia ("Ziemassvētku vecītis"), Lithuania ("Kalėdų Senelis"),
Child Jesus: Mexico ("El Niñito Dios" ("Child God", meaning Jesus)).
Father Frost: Russia ("Ded Moroz"), Serbia and Bosnia and Herzegovina ("Deda Mraz"); Removed the Father Frost from the Czech Republic info, as it is clearly a Russian tradition. Many Czechs are aware of the existence of the Father Frost, but this is mainly because they are fond of this Russian fairy-tale film "Mrazik" which is on the TV every Christmas. Arguably, there will be merely an insignificant minority of children in the Czech Republic, who actually receive their gifts from this character.
Multiple names used: Spain and some of Spanish-speaking Latin America ("Papá Noel" or "San Nicolás" or "Santa Claus" ), Germany ("Weihnachtsmann" or "Nikolaus"), 'Father Christmas' (and in some cases baby Jesus) is used in preference to 'Santa' in Afghanistan ("Baba Chaghaloo")
Futhermore, althought this information is very interesting, I doubt it should be here - it lists every gift bringing character like Child Jesus, but article is on Father Christmas, maybe it should be in seperate article ? -- Xil/talk 14:44, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

The Danish name, "Julemanden", could be translated literally as "the Yule man" or "the Christmas man". No reference to "father".

[edit] Names in other Countries

Some of the names for other countries/ Languages provided do not translate to "father Christmas" or "baby jesus". Some of these figures are not even connected with Christmas, but with other dates, like new year's eve, instead. The last paragraph should be modified to reflect this.

[edit] Holly King

The only source for this is an about.com article which gives no sources or indeed any attempts to back up its assertions. It looks suspiciously like a retrospective creation, along the lines of Margaret Murray or Gerald Gardner. Is there a better source for this? Mon Vier 12:26, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Illustration

Thank you so very much for getting rid of that stupid illustration and putting in a much better one! A trillion blessings on whoever did it! Erudil 20:49, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gladman's Insurrection

I've removed the reference to Gladman's Insurrection, because Gladman was crowned as the Lord of Misrule, not as any equivalent of 'Father Christmas':

"The subsequent defence alleged that the procession was but a Shrovetide sporting, and that Gladman was merely 'crowned as Kyng of Crestemesse'; the riot, however, took place at the end of January, six weeks before any Shrovetide mummery was due; possibly Gladman, who seems to have played the part of 'King of Misrule' annually at the Shrovetide carnival, put on his 'property robes' in a spirit of semijesting riotousness, and was then carried by the temper of the mob further than he had intended." (From britishhistory.ac.uk)

The Lord_of_Misrule is a completely different figure from Father Christmas, and has his own Wikipedia entry. Cavalorn (talk) 14:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Father Christmas vs. ...

Father Christmas vs. Weihnachtsmann (Santa) vs. Nikolaus vs. Babbo Natale ...

at the part "Names in various countries" there ist listet in Germany "Weihnachtsmann" or "Nikolaus". thats def. wrong! the nikolaus (english: Saint Nicholas) is not the weihnachtsmann (english: Santa Claus) - (i will change this later on. perhaps there are also mistakes in other languages ...???). also the polish, russian and other entries of this list are doubtful. (and the inter-wiki-links too). a merging of "Santa Claus" and "Father Christmas" perhaps would be the better way ... hmm. ? thanx, 80.89.110.48 (talk) 16:40, 6 December 2007 (UTC) (this edit was done by Enlarge (talk) 10:45, 7 December 2007 (UTC), resigned)

Yes there is ongoing confusion as to the distinction between Santa Claus and Father Christmas which could maybe be better explored in a combined article. Citizensmith (talk) 13:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Yup, definitely wrong in teh article. Nikolaus comes on December 6th (or rather in the night between December 5th and 6th), while the Weihnachtsmann comes on the evening of December 24th. Nikolaus puts sweets and sometimes also small presents into the shoes of the children, provided the kids cleaned them and put 'em in front of their door. The kids would then find their Nikolaus gifts in the morning. --Klaws (talk) 11:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lewis and Tolkien

This seems somewhat irrelevant to me. It would be interesting if the works were comparable, but The Father Christmas Letters were never meant for publication. The fact that a character used by Lewis in fiction designed for public consumption appears in writings which Tolkien produced purely for his family's benefit is surely neither here nor there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.221.148 (talk) 00:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC) It is here and it is there, Sam I am. He wrote those letters for his children, but they were published as a book for everybody eventually. Das Baz, aka Erudil 20:07, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

DBachmann was making a few edits and drew my attention to the fact that there is another article for Santa Claus. The two are interchangeable terms for the same person, and a lot of the information from one article is duplicated in the other. I think that both articles would be better served by merging the two and contrasting the differences of interpretation. Any merger of course would have the appropriate redirects. Because we are moving into that season, this should probably be acted upon after a moderate amount of discussion. I've initiated this same discussion over at the Santa Claus article. Thoughts? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 14:40, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Let's keep the discussion at one place to avoid two simultaneous discussions on the same subject. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 01:02, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Same character?

"The same figure with the same name exists in other countries (in that country's language), such as France, Spain, Portugal, Italy and Romania (Romance countries)."

The above paragraph is someone's point of view...yes they do have names with similar meanings however to claim they are the same character is heavily biased as Father Christmas is as much like the Italian version as he is like the American Santa Claus. The above should be changed to something more easily sourced and less biased. Merry Yule! Sigurd Dragon Slayer (talk) 16:28, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Appearance

"Father Christmas often appears as a large elderly aged male often around 60 to 70 years old. He is dressed in either a red or green snowsuit trimmed with white fur, a matching hat and dark boots. Often he carries a large brown sack filled with toys on his back"

I'd agree with the elderly man, and the sack of toys, but my childhood (only 30-odd years ago) memory of Father Christmas is that he typically wore a long red gown, and a hooded riding-cloak trimmed with white fur. The jaunty bobble-cap, and the two-piece jacket-and-trousers suit (which is what I assume is meant by "snow suit") is, to me, typical of the modern hybridisation with the (essentially, in British culture) American Santa Claus. Green I don't remember at all - possibly a reference to Dickens' "Spirit of Christmas Present" in "A Christmas Carol", who wears a green cloak? But I can't find sources, not even a snap of me sitting on the knee of a department store "Father Christmas" in the mid-seventies, which I'm sure would prove my point about the appearance of Father Christmas back then being (apart from colour scheme) different to that of the modern Santa. Ghughesarch (talk) 23:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Isn't it a Red James Bond suit? and a hat with a bobble on it? And no, no green, in Recess (TV series) he's black though and shaves [1]. ←Kala jan→ 22:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion

Listen if a little kid reads this he'll burst out crying (followed by a possible suicide =]) No I really mean it. ←Kala jan→ 22:31, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). iMatthew // talk // 23:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, I agree - this article's condition makes me want to swallow a bottle of pills myself. Joking aside, Wikipedia is not censored. Not my rule; its all Wikipedia. We don't sugar-coat it for the minors, any more than we shy away from showing a pee-pee or hoo-hoo, We just do it in a responsible way. Hiding the truth about Santa/Father Christmas/etc. is both unencyclopedic and irresponsible. If your guardians aren't willing to tell you the truth, they should also block Wikipedia, like China does. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 02:11, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Why does China do that? ←Kala jan→ 16:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Because they ~~like~~ need coal in their stocking? ;) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:02, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Former Communist countries

I noticed that Russia and at least one other member of the USSR have the communist Father Winter or Father Frost associated with New Years Day. This is quite interesting and should be explained. I would expect that Christmas itself is making a comeback in those nations. Kitfoxxe (talk) 19:04, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] contradiction

'Father Christmas typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, but was neither a gift bringer, nor particularly associated with children. The pre-modern representations of the gift-giver from church history namely Saint Nicholas, Sinterklaas and folklore, merged with the British character Father Christmas, to create the character known to Americans as Santa Claus. Like Santa Claus, Father Christmas has been identified with the old belief in Woden (Odin to the Norse)[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11].'

'Father Christmas dates back at least as far as the 17th century in Britain, and pictures of him survive from that era, portraying him as a well-nourished bearded man dressed in a long green fur-lined robe. He typified the spirit of good cheer at Christmas, and was reflected as the "Ghost of Christmas Present" in the Charles Dickens's classic A Christmas Carol, a great genial man in a green coat lined with fur, who takes Ebenezer Scrooge through the bustling streets of London on Christmas morning, sprinkling the essence of Christmas onto the happy populace.' —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sweetie candykim (talk • contribs) 13:05, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Then

'Appearance

"Father Christmas" is often synonymous with Santa Claus.Father Christmas often appears as a large man, often around 70 years old. He is dressed in a red or green snowsuit trimmed with white fur, a matching hat and dark boots. Often he carries a large brown sack filled with toys on his back.'

If he wasn't a gift bringer why did he have toys on his back? Sweetie candykim (talk) 12:59, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Who is 15th century carols' "Sire Christësmas" ?

I have doubts on the interpretations this article is giving about the 15th century carols. Rather than "personnifications" of some abstract notion, could not these "sire Christësmas" be alternative names for Child Jesus ?

"My lord" and "our king" are traditional titles for Jesus, aren't they ?

Doesn't "your coming" refer to the coming of Jesus, celebrated on Christmas ?

If so, I do not think we can use these carols as evidence of the existence of a "Father Christmas" who is a character distinct from Jesus.

Teofilo talk 18:00, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Any other films you can think of?

I did a new section on this article about where he appears on Films. So far I got Elf and The Polar Express. Those are my 2 favourites with Santa Claus--Father Christmas95 (talk) 18:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC)