Talk:The Federalist Papers

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Miscellaneous questions[edit]

Im looking to add a brief summary of each essay, I can start contributing on 28+ soon. If anyone else is in the process of reading them please help.

±I'm rather curious to know why there is no mention to the Anti-Federalist Papers, not even a wikipedia entry on them. These papers were written in response to the Federalists Papers (along with other pro-ratification speeches) and were just as important to the adoption of the Constitution for the United States of America and the Bill of Rights. [Constitution.org] has some of the Anti-Federalist Papers for reference. KeoniPhoenix 15:05, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Does anyone else find it odd that the german version of this article is about twice as long as the english one?--64.80.226.186 17:04, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

this article needs to emphasize that these men wrote the Federalist papers under a pseudonym. also, please explain why they were written under a pseudonym, and how they chose the false name. Also, the story needs to be told about how these men designed it so their names would be revealed after their deaths. Kingturtle 16:48, 19 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Hi; I'm not registered with wikipedia, but I noticed that the picture of the cover of the Federalist Papers seems to say that the author is "Philo-Publis" not "Publis." I do know a bit of Latin, and "philo" means "lover" and "publis" means "people." Philosopher means "lover of wisdom," hemopheliac (sic?) means "lover of blood" (as in, the person's body seems to love bleeding so much that it can't stop once it starts) and so on. ("Publis" is used in words like publicity and public.) So Philo-Publis would mean "Lover of the People", which would make sense, since obviously the authors of the Federalist Papers (whether one agrees with them or not) were putting forth their opinions because they thought that it would be to the great benefit of America. If the pseudonym was simply "Publis" that would mean "people" and sort of imply that they thought they were speaking for all Americans in the Federalist Papers. Its pretty clear to me that the Federalist Papers are not some testiment of what all or most Americans necessarily believed; rather they were meant to convince Americans that the Constitution should be adopted and the Articles of Confederation should be left to the historians. In summation; I think the pseudonym is "Philo-Publis," not Publis, and that the article should be changed to reflect that when/if you agree with me. Thanks!

  • Actually Philo-Publius was a different guy (William Duer) who wrote in support of the Federalist (the name is intended to mean "Friend of Publius"). Christopher Parham (talk) 06:08, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Table of Contents[edit]

There is a large table in the middle of this article: in the external links section there are two links to a similar table but also with links to each paper. I would suggest that this table takes up a lot of space, maybe should be made it's own article with each line formign a link to a stub. What do you think?--68.121.144.176 03:04, 10 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The TOC for this was listed under VfD. I moved it here in case anyone wants to do anything with it (such as link it to a series of articles) in the future.

This is a listing of the Federalist Papers.

1 General Introduction
2-7 Concerning Dangers from Foreign Force and Influence
8 The Consequences of Hostilities Between the States
9-10 The Union as a Safeguard Against Domestic Faction and Insurrection
11 The Utility of the Union in Respect to Commercial Relations and a Navy
12 The Utility of the Union in Respect to Revenue
13 Advantage of the Union in Respect to Economy in Government
14 Objections to the Proposed Constitution from Extent of Territory Answered
15-20 The Insufficiency of the Present Confederation to Preserve the Union
21-22 Other Defects of the Present Confederation
23 The Necessity of a Government as Energetic as the One Proposed to the Preservation of the Union
24-25 The Powers Necessary to the Common Defense Further Considered
26-28 The Idea of Restraining the Legislative Authority in Regard to the Common Defense Considered
29 Concerning the Militia
30-36 Concerning the General Power of Taxation
37 Concerning the Difficulties of the Convention in Devising a Proper Form of Government
38 The Same Subject Continued, and the Incoherence of the Objections to the New Plan Exposed
39 The Conformity of the Plan to Republican Principles
40 The Powers of the Convention to Form a Mixed Government Examined and Sustained
41-43 General View of the Powers Conferred by the Constitution
44 Restrictions on the Authority of the Several States
45 The Alleged Danger From the Powers of the Union to the State Governments Considered
46 The Influence of the State and Federal Governments Compared
47 The Particular Structure of the New Government and the Distribution of Power Among Its Different Parts
48 These Departments Should Not Be So Far Separated as to Have No Constitutional Control Over Each Other
49 Method of Guarding Against the Encroachments of Any One Department of Government by Appealing to the People Through a Convention
50 Periodic Appeals to the People Considered
51 The Structure of the Government Must Furnish the Proper Checks and Balances Between the Different Departments
52-53 The House of Representatives
54 The Apportionment of Members Among the States
55-56 The Total Number of the House of Representatives
57 The Alleged Tendency of the Plan to Elevate the Few at the Expense of the Many Considered in Connection with Representation
58 Objection that the Number of Members Will Not Be Augmented as the Progress of Population Demands Considered
59-61 Concerning the Power of Congress to Regulate the Election of Members
62-63 The Senate
64-65 The Powers of the Senate
66 Objections to the Power of the Senate To Set as a Court for Impeachments Further Considered
67-77 The Executive Department
78-83 The Judiciary Department
84 Certain General and Miscellaneous Objections to the Constitution Considered and Answered
85 Concluding Remarks

Proposed Expansion[edit]

I would like to see this article expanded significantly, with excerpts and analysis of each of the Federalist Papers, and how they have been cited over the years (e.g., in Supreme Court decisions). Or, a separate article could be created for each one, linked together with a template (like the one for the Constitution). Anyone else think this is a good idea?--JW1805 20:00, 13 August 2005 (UTC)

  • I actually have an article on Federalist No. 10 that I started working on but took a break from, looking at Publius's arguments, the Anti-Federalist arguments it was responding to, etc. If someone else is interested in working on this stuff I'll upload it tonight in its semi-finished state, I just have to get it off my other comp. Overall, I like the idea of having more detailed commentary on this stuff; I'm not sure that organizing by the Federalist Papers is the best way to go. Ultimately, we may want an article on each of the major issues of contention (e.g. Debates over the ideal size of the union, Debates over the structure of the judiciary) that can present the Fed. and Anti-Fed. views in contrast. But the Federalist Papers are a good place to start. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:25, 2005 August 13 (UTC)

Analysis[edit]

Are there any online works that discuss and/or analyze the Federalist Papers? Is there any way they could be added as links to the article?

References[edit]

Personally, I strongly prefer the reference system {{ref}}/{{note}}, although it would be nice if this system too was hard-coded into wikimedia. Christopher Parham (talk) 01:34, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Influence on the Ratification Debate?[edit]

It would be nice to see a discussion on the Papers influence on the ratification debate.


Authorship[edit]

It would be helpful if the two authorship lists were covered here. Septentrionalis 23:09, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

  • Federalist_Papers#Disputed_essays is intended to cover taht issue...what in particular would you like to see added? Christopher Parham (talk) 02:07, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
    • Four sets of numbers: Jay's contributions, Madison's contributions, which of them were claimed by Hamilton, and Hamilton's consensus contributions. (I suppose the last is redundant.) Not a matter of deep import, but it is what I came looking for. Septentrionalis 04:50, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
      • List of Federalist Papers has most of this information, except identifying the disputed papers, which I will add shortly. In any case, they are 49-58 and 62 and 63. Christopher Parham (talk) 06:51, 26 October 2006 (UTC) (This list is now updated to that effect)

I believe that essays 18-20 can be fully attributed to Madison. The source you site in note 1, The Encyclopedia of New York City, albeit on page 394, not 194, credits Madison with no mention of being in dispute. While I have not read the Adair essay you cite, in Meyerson's Liberty's Blueprint, he says that "Adair reviewed the content of the essays and decided that Madison's list better reflected the different policy orientations of the two. Later, Jacob Cooke reviewed the reliability of the different lists and the people who claimed to have seen them. He came to the same conclusion as Adair, namely that Madison's list was correct." Meyerson goes on to say that while others disagreed with Adair and Cooke, numerous studies based on stylometry (the science of using statistics to measure literary style) indicate that Madison was likely the author of the disputed essays. Histowi (talk) 22:18, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Your request for GA status has passed[edit]

I have passed your request for this article to be listed as one of Wikipedia's Good Articles. The article clearly explains its idea, and purpose. The only thing I see wrong with it is its loose references system. In order to advance this above GA, I suggest you try to incorporate the references and notes sections into one (using the <ref> tag over one of the refrences), so it is easier to find out what the related notes mean. There should also be more citations in the lead. --LBMixPro <Speak|on|it!> 19:34, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I added citations for some the fact tags you placed. However, the reference setup is fairly standard and I don't see any compelling reason to change it. It also makes the citations shorter and easier to add and maintain. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:49, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
In general, leads should not have footnotes; they should summarize article text, which should be sourced. However, since the (quite reasonable) claim that 10 and 51 are the most influential occurs only in the lead, it could use a source. Septentrionalis 06:22, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

I added a Socsci tag. Should it be History instead? JoelleJ 19:46, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Portrayed false[edit]

The federalist paper's with Hamilton was for a royalist governship. And the Anti-federalist paper as wacky as it seems was for a republican with sovereign people. But as the name "federalist" was already taken for a paper they had to choose another name. So this article makes me very confused regarding what this. Lord Metroid 16:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Frankly I'm confused regarding your comment, could you be clearer? Christopher Parham (talk) 19:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Maybe after he reads them he can correct himself. 70.146.15.172 01:30, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Links to text[edit]

The External Links section has several links to copies of the Papers, including a link to Wikisource copies. Are any of the linked materials very different from the others? (SEWilco 02:53, 22 April 2007 (UTC))

The following sentence is unclear. I would like to see someone knowledgable about this subject rewrite this sentence to include who "it" is and explain who the "opponents" of the constitution were. This statement begs the question of whether or not anti-federalists were opponents of the constitution.

Immediately, it was the target of numerous articles and public letters written by Anti-Federalists and other opponents of the Constitution.

71.146.106.81 20:39, 2 September 2007 (UTC)chime

I would think it's obvious that "it" is the Constitution, the subject of the previous sentence and the only reasonable antecedent mentioned in the paragraph to that point. The Anti-Federalist movement did oppose the ratification of the constitution, as I think the sentence makes clear by lumping them with "other opponents of the Constitution." I'm not attached to the current language but it's not apparent to me how these ideas could be made clearer. Christopher Parham (talk) 21:12, 2 September 2007 (UTC)


I think a great addition to the Federalist Papers page would be (http://www.thefinalclub.org/work-overview.php?work_id=93) which directs to TheFinalClub.org a new site that among other things includes full texts of public domain texts with hypertext commentary on works ranging from Macbeth to the Federalist Papers. The texts are cleanly formatted and the commentary is unique, interesting, and authoritative. Check out the site. Andrewmagliozzi (talk) 19:41, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Automatic addition of "class=GA"[edit]

A bot has added class=GA to the WikiProject banners on this page, as it's listed as a good article. If you see a mistake, please revert, and leave a note on the bot's talk page. Thanks, BOT Giggabot (talk) 05:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

GA Sweeps Review: Pass[edit]

As part of the WikiProject Good Articles, we're doing sweeps to go over all of the current GAs and see if they still meet the GA criteria. I'm specifically going over all of the "World History-Americas" articles. I believe the article currently meets the criteria and should remain listed as a Good article. I have made minor corrections throughout the article and added two sources for several quotes. Altogether the article is well-written and is still in great shape after its passing in 2006, although it could be expanded further. The statement "As of the year 2000, The Federalist had been quoted 291 times in Supreme Court decisions.[26]", should be updated if possible. Continue to improve the article making sure all new information is properly sourced and neutral. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. I have updated the article history to reflect this review. --Nehrams2020 (talk) 01:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Madison's quote[edit]

This edit added text to a referenced quotation. The added text seemed plausible but didn't reference a source, so I reverted it until it could be confirmed. If it can be it seemed like a decent addition to me though I'm not highly familiar with the topic. - Taxman Talk 03:38, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Here is a source, found by googling the original part of the quote. Tedickey (talk) 10:31, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

==================[edit]

This page says that Federalist 10 talks about preventing faction. Not at all. It talks about how the Founding Fathers could thwart the power of the Majority by increasing the number of factions in each voting district by increasing the size of the district. By increasing the number of factions, Madison and the other founding fathers planned to make it harder for the majority to unite and discover their common interest and thereby use the power of the government to tax away the wealth of Madison and the other Founding Fathers. So Fed 10 is NOT about preventing faction. It is about how Madison and the other wealthy founding fathers should be USING factions by increasing the number of factions in the voting district and thereby making it harder for us commoners to organize, unite and use the power of govt to take the wealth of the "minority of the opulent" (to quote madison). -cryofan

==================[edit]

Title[edit]

I move that since the TRUE title of the work is "The Federalist" and NOT "The Federalist Papers" the title of this article should be changed to "The Federalist" with searches for "(The) Federalist Papers" redirected to it. "The Federalist Papers" is a later title: Hamilton, Madison, and Jay very specifically wanted the work to be called "The Federalist" because a federalist was the type of man whose virtues they wanted to promote, a man like Publius--The title "The Federalist" refers to a type of PERSON, not a collection of papers. Calling them "The Federalist Papers" very much changes the authors' intent.

Translations[edit]

Does anyone know if the federalist papers has been translated into Arabic? I would like to think that people forming a completely new government (Egypt) could have access to the concepts contained in the federalist. This could be a valuable resource to improve our world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.250.99.163 (talk) 21:40, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

linking to free Federalist Papers audio[edit]

Hi,

I've been providing an audio narration of the Federalist Papers for free on my website for about four years. It seems like a useful resource for people wanting to learn more about the Federalist Papers. Would you consider adding this recording to the External Links section of this article?

Thanks,

Mike

173.79.183.23 (talk) 16:03, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Individual articles[edit]

Is it really neccessary to have an article for every single essay? It seems that at least 74 of these are pretty weak stubs and don't give any more information than what is already on the list page. I would suggest that somebody with subject expertise cleans up and picks out the most notable for thier own articles and merges the rest into the main article.

If you want an argument from policy I'd argue that the individual essays are either non-notable or they fail to establish independant notability. Just because 'the federalist papers' are notable, does not mean that every federalist paper is also notable, WP:BK Bob House 884 (talk) 16:46, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Intro[edit]

The Introduction (before the table of contents) is disconcertingly long and full of text which seems like it should go into the body. Ideally I would like to see the intro just outline the main idea of the papers (ie The Constitution should be adopted) and a bit about their authors and the context in which they were written. In keeping with other similar articles, the intro should be one to two paragraphs. Since there seems to be a lot of relevant information in the introduction, I would like to see it moved into the body.

I don't have time to make these edits right now as I am working on a class project at the moment. This is probably for the best as it will give anyone with a contrary (or supporting) opinion a chance to chime in. I'm all for being Wikipedia:Bold, but this is a good class article and I am a somewhat erratic editor. As such I would appreciate any commentary below. Regards, --Mortosthegodly (talk) 08:22, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

Anonymity[edit]

Why did the authors publish anonymously? What would have been the downside of publishing with attribution? The Federalist Papers are often cited as a reason to support anonymity of free speech in modern times, so this issue seems important. -- Beland (talk) 17:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

A Collection: Infobox date for publication[edit]

The source for the date of this collection was not provided. The Roman Numeral date on the cover translates to 1783 - this can't be correct. Another source here: http://www.loc.gov/rr/program/bib/ourdocs/federalist.html - this gives the publishing date as 1799. I'll remove the date "1783" (or "1788") from infobox until confirmed. 36hourblock (talk) 20:05, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

The numerals pretty clearly show 1788... your link also gives 1788 ("A bound edition of the essays was first published in 1788"), and the source linked from the image page looks good. I've restored the text. Christopher Parham (talk) 22:53, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Change of title to The Federalist Papers[edit]

I agree with with the anom author of the section above entitled "Title" - the title of this page, if Wikipedia is to be historically correct, should be The Federalist papers (or The Federalist Papers if capitalizing Papers makes it more familiar). The authors of the papers called the overall project The Federalist, indicating that they were articles being written by one man but actually going under a shared alias of three of America's Founding Fathers - Hamilton, Madison, and Jay. This change feels appropriate to me, and might to readers and historians, so I'm seconding anom's idea, above, in favor of a name change. If so, we can set off fireworks and sign this change with a virtual pen from the Syng inkstand (I really like that page and artifact!) Randy Kryn 21:08 19 September, 2014 (UTC)

Marcus Junius or Lucius Junius Brutus?[edit]

We need someone with access to Furtwangler book to check, but I am surprised to see the hyperlink for "Brutus" lead to Marcus Junius Brutus the Younger, the Brutus who assassinated Julius Caesar, rather than Lucius Junius Brutus, the Brutus who overthrew the Tarquin monarchy and created the Roman Republic 450 years earlier. Certainly I would imagine, and have previously understood, that the educated man who recognized the name Brutus in the context of the founding of a republic would have thought of the latter, which is to say the earlier, Brutus. The argument I have heard is that Hamilton was distinguishing the guy who did the big, pro-republican act and then died (Brutus) from the guy who actually made the new republic work (Publius). Anyone want to weigh in? Czrisher (talk) 23:59, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

See Publius Valerius Publicola#Legacy - Cwobeel (talk) 00:05, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Also Robert_Yates_(politician)#Brutus - Cwobeel (talk) 00:09, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
Page 51 speaks of Publius Valerius for the Publius pseudonym, but I don't see any thing there about which Brutus in the snippets available (in google books: [1]) - Cwobeel (talk) 00:19, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Split off the list[edit]

I suggest that the list that was merged here in 2012, be resplit back into a separate article. This article was evaluated as GA prior to the merger, such a substantial change requires reevaluation. The article is now almost 50kB and long, making it bad for mobile users. The list of papers should exist as a separate list article. -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 06:15, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

When I came to this page the list was very useful, as it let me, the reader, see at a glance which of the three authors wrote which page, the topic of each paper, gave a link to the pages individual article, and offered other useful information. And since each of the papers already has its own page, some of them quite extensive and others in need of additional data, the links found in the list serves that purpose well. There are also categories which include the papers for each of the three authors, also useful. As for length, the page seems fine, especially for such an important topic. I don't know what discussion has occurred elsewhere on Wikipedia about changing pages and the concept of Wikipedia itself to benefit mobile users, but hopefully that won't occur. I see each page is a stand-alone article, originally meant to be viewed as an encyclopedia on a computer screen, and even though mobile use is increasing I hope it won't mean that Wikipedia will limit its collection of knowledge in individual articles. But again, for me, the bottom line is my own experience: seeing that list upped my education about the subject in such a way that it led me to read and research it further. That's my two cents (worth much less than a cent in inflationary terms as figured by the cost of postage stamps). Randy Kryn 13:14 4 October, 2014 (UTC)
The situation prior to 2012 was a separate list article, that situation resulted in this article becoming a Good-Article. The information would not be deleted, it would simply sit at a separate article. so you could still have read it. WP:LENGTH, Wikipedia is already concerned with articles over their size, typically above 30kB we should split the article up. WP:NOTPAPER, Wikipedia is not paper, we do not have to write everything into a single article entry, as a paper encyclopedia would. We can have a set of articles. -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 05:39, 5 October 2014 (UTC)
Interesting reading, thanks. 30kb isn't mentioned, 60kb seems to be the maximum (twice what you thought, so maybe your concern is from the 30kb figure?), with 50 as edging into talking about dividing (and the policy says that we should not include lists when looking at the kb load). This page is now at 46kb, even with the list, well below 50. It seems a good list, well made and informative, and gives a great deal of information about the subject that the rest of the page doesn't. So at least for me, when I read and studied the page, it became a key part of understanding the main topic, and led me into a longer exploration. Randy Kryn 8:48 5 October, 2014 (UTC)
The exact figure mentioned is 32kB. The text on a 32kB page takes about five seconds to load for editing on a dial-up connection, with accompanying images taking additional time, so pages significantly larger than this are difficult for older browsers to display More and more users use mobile devices to access the web, and with it Wikipedia. We should ensure that Wikipedia works well with these users. These users could have low power phones on poor internet connections, such as some Firefox OS phones [2] recently released into the world, or Android 1.x/2.x phones which are still in production. Most of Africa is wired up through cellular networks of poor quality, and use low spec phones. Android netbooks in production are also low spec, and those are also popular in regions such as that.
I never said it wasn't a good list. and the list wouldn't be deleted either. It would simply sit in a separate article. This has nothing to do with deleting the list, it only moves it to a separate article, as it was prior to 2012. This article was rated GA-class (good article) without the list, so it was a good article without needing the list. Clicking on a link to read the list doesn't mean the list is deleted, it simply is a click away.
-- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 05:03, 7 October 2014 (UTC)
Hi. The policy page in question says that the number to start thinking of splitting a page is 50kB (32kB is used as a number for the five second load time for older browsers, but the 50 is where concern really starts). And, something I didn't know and quite important to this discussion, this 50kB doesn't include lists, notes, references, or pictures. Just what they call 'readable text' (I'm learning new words though this talk). Here are those two areas: At 50kB and above it may be beneficial to move some sections to other articles and replace them with summaries....."Readable prose" is the main body of the text, excluding material such as footnotes and reference sections ("see also", "external links", bibliography, etc.), diagrams and images, tables and lists, Wikilinks and external URLs, and formatting and mark-up. I've just measured the readable text of the page (took a half an hour, stopped to read some of the page) and it's 20.5 kB (and still only 46kB counting everything). So this article's readable text is quite short actually, especially for a topic as major as The Federalist Papers. The list itself seems to me well done, adds much information to the page, and has links which I've followed on quite a few occasions now. Maybe this new data should solve this question? I hope so, and we both may have learned new Wikipedia standards and policies from it. Thanks. Randy Kryn 11:41 7 October, 2014 (UTC)
When I want to read Wikipedia articles (rather than edit), I use Wikiwand. If you read this article there (http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Federalist_Papers) you will get a better feeling for size, prose and usability. I'd say that the list is a very good navigational aid. - Cwobeel (talk) 04:31, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Change of title and page move, thoughts?[edit]

As above two sections, a change to The Federalist Papers with the italics on The Federalist (it's now a redirect) would not only bring its correct name to the title, but doesn't really change the common name. If okay with page watchers, and it seems to be from the 'no comments' in the two above sections pertaining to this, can someone move the title (I don't know how to do so over a redirect page). Thanks. Randy Kryn 13:04 1 November, 2014 (UTC)