Talk:Fine art

A bit too broad

Looking through the list of fine art, it doesn't seem very authoritative, but rather a listing of what various individuals like. I like comics/graphic-novels as much as the next person, but I don't think it should be included in the list. I'm sure there are a few specific examples of comics that are fine-art, but as a category comics are not generally considered fine art. Likewise, while there are instances of fine art that use textiles as a medium, textiles generally are considered more a craft than a fine art.

Perhaps we could clean up the list to include things that are widely considered fine art and then have a separate category that can point out specific examples of cases where a work has transcended its medium and would generally be considered fine art. Simenzo (talk) 15:44, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

I just don't think anyone has the energy to tackle this. It's a daunting article.Nlj7b2 (talk) 05:06, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Visual Art vs. Fine Art

I have just come here from Visual art and find that the two phrases are somewhat confused. In fact this one is a bit of a mess as far as the definition is concerned and does " a teapot that doesn't work is fine art" seriously deserve to stay? I shall attempt to tighten up the definition and clarify the distinction between the two terms.

DavidP 01:59, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone have a source, or a point of further discussion, for the sentence in the article:

"Today the term is often improperly used to give any artistic discipline an emphasis that implies higher quality." Thanks. A.H. 3 Aug 2005.

--Real Art-- I think we've lost the esscence of what art really is. there is a difference between proffession and art. when fine art was at its finest, they didn't even do photography. You had an easel and some paint and you did what you could! -Flicker —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.152.111 (talk) 14:28, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

From The American Heritage ® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition, Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company:

1. a. Art produced or intended primarily for beauty rather than utility.

b. Any of the art forms, such as sculpture, painting, or music, used to create such art. Often used in the plural.

2. Something requiring highly developed techniques and skills: the fine art of teaching.

kos —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.225.240.11 (talk) 07:01, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

--Evb-wiki 19:53, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Dance and theatre

Dance needs to be included. There are a lot of dancers out there that would be very cross if they are not included in the canon of Fine Art.

My Associates of Fine Arts degree was in theatre from here many moons ago. The fine arts include both visual arts and performing arts. --Evb-wiki 19:46, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

"Arts" has been turned into a redirect.

Please look at the old versions of "Arts" and see if there is anything of value there for this page. I will refrain from tagging it with a "mergefrom". -- Fplay 06:29, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

== Nursing ==

---

I would just like to say that NURSING is a fine art. And to show that I will quote Florence Nightingale, the pioneer of nursing!

“Nursing is an art, and if it is to be made an art, it requires as exclusive a devotion, as hard a preparation, as any painter’s or sculptor’s work, for what is having to do with the living body – the temple of God’s spirit? It is one of the fine Arts; I had almost said, the finest of the fine Arts”

Animation

The word "fine" does not so much denote the quality of the artwork in question, but the purity of the discipline. This definition tends to exclude visual art forms that could be considered craftwork or applied art, such as textiles.'

According to that definition, animation could well be considered a fine art - it is neither craftwork nor applied art and has a wide range of movements within it. For some persuasive evidence, I present this (a few clips from My Love, by Aleksandr Petrov). Esn 01:02, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Core meaning of the phrase "fine art," in my opinion.

I think the central, core meaning of "fine art," is as applied to painting and sculpture, as is generally found in museums and art galleries. The various other applications of the phrase "fine art," are I think more figurative, rather than being strictly literal. Also, I think "fine art" refers to paintings and sculptures of past periods in time in addition to those produced in our time. The term "visual art" I think more closely coincides with the term "contemporary art," that is, art produced recently. Along with painting and sculpture would of course go drawing, printmaking, and photography, and perhaps some other art forms I may have left out. Bus stop 02:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I completely agree with you. As a result, I have clarified the definition of fine art in this article. Also, the introduction had too broad a meaning for fine art, so I have qualified that by emphasizing precisely what you termed the "core meaning" of fine art, instead of trying to please everyone who wants to dump other art forms into the fine art category. It only confuses when someone requests that every other art form be considered "fine". The term "fine" was never meant to be derogatory towards other arts, just an adjective to indicate that the arts in question were refined, or of a purely aesthetic nature, to set them apart from applied art.

Unfortunately, the term "Fine arts" has already been misused and it is too late to go back now.

Skol fir (talk) 16:30, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree generally, although for example "engraving" in the first para is a loose term meaning all forms of printmaking. We just don't need these little sections on media, whether or not they actually are fine art or not, which imo "illustration" and comics are not. Johnbod (talk) 16:37, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

"Engraving" was the old term in that reference I used in the Intro., specifically: Elmes, James; "A general and bibliographical dictionary of the fine arts. Containing explanations of the principal terms used in the arts of painting, sculpture, architecture, and engraving, in all their various branches."; London, T. Tegg; 1826.

I would have updated that term as it is certainly very broad, but as I was referring to the historical sense of "fine art" in the early 19th century and before, I needed to be consistent with that time in the history of art.

I agree that "illustration" and comics are not really fine art on their own, since they are used in the field of literature as an embellishment to a story, not created for their own sake. However, as I did not originally set up this article (from the talk here it must have been around for at least 4 years) I cannot take credit for the "media" inserts, nor do I have the authority to simply cut them out. I would add somewhere, though, that other forms of visual arts sometimes cross over into fine art, even if only barely, and we probably have to let them in the door, to keep the peace :)

Skol fir (talk) 19:33, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

FineArtAmerica.com

FineArtAmerica.com - The site is 100% free and is a great resource for artists and art galleries. It should be included as a valuable reference on Wikipedia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.215.179.208 (talk • contribs)

WP is not a collection of links. Per the guideline on external links, this seems to fall under several aspects of "links normally to be avoided." These would include:

• "Links mainly intended to promote a website."
• "Links to sites that primarily exist to sell products or services." (the site in question seems to exist primarily to provide onward links to galleries' and artists' sites)
• "Links to sites that require payment or registration to view the relevant content" (moving beyond the homepage to the "request a quotation" link or to partipate in the minimally active discussion forum - which are themselves discouraged - requires registration)
• "Sites that are only indirectly related to the article's subject." Yes, the site is about businesses and practitioners related to the general concept of "Fine art," but that relationship is at best indirect.
• In short, the site has a clear promotional purpose ("advertise your artwork, post your events, and more!" exhorts a link at the top of the homepage), not a purely informational one.

I would also caution the IP-account(s) that have been adding this link using language again drawn from the guideline on external links: "You should avoid linking to a website that you own, maintain, or represent." The tenacity with which the site has been re-added after reversion by numerous editors makes it hard not to think there is a link between the anonymous adders and the site in question. That the IP in question is equally tenacious in adding a similar directory site to the Automation article only strengthens that likelihood. Robertissimo 13:22, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

I wish this article luck: the definition of fine art is debated at my college daily--not aided by the fact that the arts change with the people who make them! Jeni Mc 14:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Garbled text

The first sentence of the first paragraph is garbled. Perhaps the person who wrote or edited it most recently could correct it. There is also a hanging quotation mark in the sentence. Terryellen 16:53, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

Academic study

Currently only describes the USA model. UK, French, Russian etc are all different.Research Method (talk) 00:49, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I imagine I'm not alone in my lack of familiarity with the modes of academic study overseas. I am aware, via anecdote, of traditional academic models that exist in Russia and Italy. Any additional information that broadens the 'worldview' would be beneficial to the article. Currently Art school appears to focus on the US and the UK. JNW (talk) 02:00, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Aside from the aforementioned heading, it would be helpful for the application of the 'worldwide view' tag to be accompanied by explanation of specific instances of imbalance within an article, that contributors can better understand and aid in presenting a more expansive text. JNW (talk) 02:35, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Global

If you need examples, no mention is made of Calligraphy. I believe this is a fine art.Peas & Luv (talk) 01:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC) I don't know much about non-western art, but I think that it is fine art, and I can see that it is not covered.Peas & Luv (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

2D WORKS section SUCK!!!

I'm all for including all sorts of graphic design as art. Taking in consideration the cave, mayan and egyptian paintings, sequential art or ilustration comics have always been there, even before regular painting! However, this article provides no justification to put them as "2D work" along with painting, the only "2D work" widely acknoledged as a fine art. You need to find at least a couple of good, reliable and verifiable sources stating that the place of painting has been expanded to include ilustration, printing and the rest. --201.155.3.160 (talk) 03:37, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Printmaking and Drawing

I've returned the deleted sections. Drawing and printmaking are both considered among the Fine Arts...Let's get a consensus concerning Illustration and Comics, before deleting them..I think they can stay...Modernist (talk) 12:47, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Comics are not fine art

Comics need to be removed as it can't be defined as fine arts. Fine arts denote art that is representative of "high culture", comics is represntive of low culture. I will remove this section if no one objects.FSAB (talk) 12:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

They don't need to be removed. As noted in the article, much of the best comic and cartoon work is rightly considered fine art. JNW (talk) 13:38, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, by some. Rather than just include them in the list, the ideal solution would be to explain how cases like this are part of the reason why the term is avoided by academics, & becoming increasingly restricted to commercial and popular usage. Johnbod (talk) 13:57, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Avoided by some academics. There are fine arts bachelors degrees given for comic art studies [1], and museums devoted to the subject [2], [3], as well as exhibitions at museums without affiliation to comic subjects [4]. My take was that strips like Krazy Kat, Terry and the Pirates and Calvin and Hobbes, to name a few, have been accepted as art. And we're not even bringing Daumier and Nast into play yet. JNW (talk) 14:44, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

"Art" yes, but "fine art" is avoided in most current scholarship because it's increasingly meaningless for just this sort of reason. It was never much liked or used by art historians anyway, and the singular form has I think always mostly been restricted to the US - in UK English "fine arts", matching or translating "beaux-arts" (which has no singular), is what you normally find . Johnbod (talk) 15:46, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

It sounds like we're moving into broader terrain. If we accept the first sentence of the article Fine art or the fine arts describes an art form developed primarily for aesthetics and/or concept rather than practical application, we're already on ambiguous ground, since so much work accepted as fine or high art began as a practical application, or at least incorporated both commercial and aesthetic considerations. I follow your thinking re: the term, but are you meaning to suggest an expansive re-thinking of this article, with comic strips being the least of it? JNW (talk) 17:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Comics do belong, per the 1990 High And Low: Modern Art and Popular Culture exhibition curated by Kirk Varnedoe at the Museum of Modern Art, and then there was Daumier, Roy Lichtenstein, Andy Warhol...Modernist (talk) 15:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't keep up with the discussion, was busy this pass month. But in response to modernist, Roy Lichtenstein and Andy Warhol were not "comicbook artists" rather artists who used the aesthetic of comic books at some point in their careers. The reason why any of the comic books art not clased as fine art is because the don't engage with any contemporary debates within art theory. To be honest I wonder why comic book fans feel the need to justify themselves by classing comics as art,surely they are valid as a cultural experience on their own terms?FSAB (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not engaging as a 'comic book fan', but as an artist and writer, as well as one with an appreciation for comics. Your last point is well taken: comics are valid without straining for artistic pretension, but from Daumier to R. Crumb, there are cartoons that have crossed the cultural line into a separate aesthetic consideration. This is supported by literature and museum exhibitions. Surely this is not a unanimous appraisal, but it has legs, I think, beyond those of comic book enthusiasts. JNW (talk) 20:28, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

As ever, it's sources, sources and sources. If the relevant significant ones treat something as art, then so does wiki, and vice versa. Such matters are not resolved by editorial debate in isolation. Ty 02:26, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

To reiterate what I said earlier per the 1990 High And Low: Modern Art and Popular Culture exhibition curated by Kirk Varnedoe at the Museum of Modern Art and this book published at the time by Varnedoe and Adam Gopnik, in1990, Modern Art and Popular Culture: Readings in High & Low. Abrams in association with the Museum of Modern Art. ISBN 0870703560, the premise basically was that art is sourced in the culture through both high aesthetic content and popular kitsch which includes comics. I cited Warhol and Lichtenstein as two successful artists savvy enough to recognize and exploit or source their works or rather some of their works from comics. Dick Tracy anyone...Modernist (talk) 03:41, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Crumb and other comic creators are exhibited not because their work has now become "Fine Art" but because their work is culturally significant(as I said before). I guess I go along with Umberto Eco's argument that one should not raise popular entertainment (in which he includes comics) to the level of art in order to justify its existence, but to work for forms of popular entertainment that are "honest". Comics shouldn't have false artistic pretentions or else they becomes kitsch, nonart that aspires to artistic status by borrowing devices used by true artworks, devices that cease to be artisic outside their original context. It should remain true to its own devices and be aware of its own limitations, yet can still deal with important issues of everyday life.FSAB (talk) 16:48, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

"level-3 vital article in Art"

Should this be one? I don't think so. Johnbod (talk) 15:54, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Photography is not "fine art"

Photography has no business being mentioned on this page. Photography is not and cannot be 'fine art'. See Roger Scruton's contribution in Aesthetics. PetraioPrime (talk)

I disagree, although WP:IDON'TLIKEIT is your opinion. I would suggest that you read these articles: Fine art photography, Alfred Stieglitz, Edward Steichen, and Ansel Adams [5] and consider that the Museum of Modern Art has the finest collection of Fine art photography in the world...Modernist (talk) 16:05, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I am both a photographer and a philosopher. You 'suggest' I read some Wiki articles? Of all the gall! I know all about Steichen and Adams, and don't need to read those articles. I have been doing photography for 46 years. This has to do with the meaning of 'art'. See Roger Scruton's article "Why Photography is not Art" in "The Aesthetic Understanding". Photographers are morons (and that includes Adams and Steichen). They are not philosophers and have no clue about aesthetics as a field in philosophy. Some ignorant people think that calling something "fine art" is a term of praise. It's not. It's a technical term. They don't know that 'fine' means something different in that expression. There are 'fine-art' brushes and oils, but no 'fine-art' photographs. So, get it OFF of this page!

'Art' is fiction and is not causally related to any subject matter. Photographs are always 'of' something real and causally related to their 'subject'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PetraioPrime (talk • contribs) 17:27, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

PetraioPrime (talk)

Try learning these principles WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF AND WP:NPA before proceeding...Modernist (talk) 17:01, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Try learning these principles: know what you're talking about before writing a Wiki article! Quoting or referring to photographers as support for the assertion that photography belongs in the fine arts shows me that the author of this page knows nothing about the subject. What kind of idiot do you take me for? What authority do they have? None! PetraioPrime (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:11, 24 June 2010 (UTC). (PetraioPrime (talk) 17:15, 24 June 2010 (UTC)). --PetraioPrime (talk) 17:19, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

If you don't care for photographers' opinions of photography, then look no further than Thomas Eakins ("considered the finest portrait painter our country has ever produced" - Kirkpatrick, 2). Eakins was an accomplished photographer, who used photography as the basis for many of his oils, as well as taking them for their own sake. Raul654 (talk) 16:03, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Using 'photographers are morons' as a rationale is unlikely to sway consensus. They give MFAs for photography. JNW (talk) 00:02, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

So what? That means nothing! Get photography off of this page! —Preceding unsigned comment added by PetraioPrime (talk • contribs) 13:25, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Take photography off of this page! NOW!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by PetraioPrime (talk • contribs) 21:03, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Need for more aesthetics in the lede?

at the moment it just lists some artforms.93.96.148.42 (talk) 09:31, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

It could use some work, yes. I'm also not a fan of this paragraph:

The term is usually avoided by academic art historians[citation needed], and is much less used in any context in the UK than North America, especially in the singular form.[citation needed]

Along with being uncited, it smacks of one person's opinion, and should likely be removed. Opinions?--Chimino (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Well I'm pretty sure I added it, & it is certainly true, but rather hard to cite without an introductory textbook to art history, which I don't have. Johnbod (talk) 01:31, 6 March 2011 (UTC)