Talk:First Jewish–Roman War
|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 Name of this article.
- 2 Supposed challenge to Josephus about Masada
- 3 Jewish success, the Fall
- 4 This article is poorly written and full of inaccuracies. Pretty poor show.
- 5 Sources
- 6 Blaming the Revolt on Caligula?!?!
- 7 Image copyright problem with Image:Second Temple Destroyed.jpg
- 8 AD vs CE edits.
- 9 Bar Giora faction
Name of this article.
Simple question: is this the best name for this article? I've always referred to it as 'The Jewish war' (maybe the 'first Jewish war' or perhaps 'The (first) Jewish revolt'. I'm coming from a scholarly Christian environment, so I'm particularly interested in how Jewish works refer to it. Hyam Maccoby refers to it as 'The Jewish war against Rome' - but I don't know how typical he is --Doc (?) 21:25, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
- I don't remember where exactly I got the title from (Josephus?) but I thought it is common enough. I am not a scholar, though. Does First Jewish-Roman War sound better?
- Unrelated to this, I think the article titled Great Uprising should be renamed into something more sensible. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 23:19, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I've always known/referred to it as either the Jewish War or periphrastically as something like the Fall of Jerusalem or the Destruction of the Temple. Jewish War is also the standard English title of Josephus' work (I think we all have at least seen the Pelican translation, and most reading this probably own a copy). To be frank, I've never heard of "Great Jewish Revolt" in any context. I don't think Josephus ever referred to it this way. And speaking of Josephus's Jewish War, a major rehab is in order. This is an extraordinarily important work of history. --FourthAve 23:48, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd be happy with per Humus sapiens. Either that or 'Jewish War (66-73)' (but that may be too akward}. I'd prefer simply 'Jewish-War' (but would be confused with Josephus' work) or simply 'The Jewish-Roman War' but that might be confused with Bar Kokhba. Any takers or objections to 'First Jewish-Roman War' then? --Doc (?) 22:15, 21 August 2005 (UTC)
- I know I shouldn't but part of me wants to disagree just because it is taken from that prick Josephus- Moshe Constantine Hassan Al-Silverburg 04:50, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Supposed challenge to Josephus about Masada
Ben-Yehuda does not challenge Josephus' account of a mass suicide by the besieged on Masada. Rather, he refutes, by reference to Josephus, the modern mythologising that casts those besieged, and their group suicide, as heroic. Josephus, the "Masada myth" that Ben-Yehuda criticises, and Ben-Yehuda himself fully agree that the suicides took place.
So I have taken out the "this view has been challenged". I left the reference in, though, because it applies even so.
Lonewolf BC 20:13, 22 October 2006 (UTC)
Ben Yehuda notes that the archaeological findings do not support the idea of mass suicide exactly since only a few remains were found. The view has also been challenged by others. Shaye Cohen noted that the story that the Romans breached the walls but waited until the next day to enter Masada is a bit fishy. [[Mewnews (talk) 00:23, 17 May 2009 (UTC)]]
Jewish success, the Fall
This article is poorly written and full of inaccuracies. Pretty poor show.
- The problem is that it is written mainly from primary sources (Josephus). It is not much help for inclusion in the relevant sections of Antisemitism and History of antisemitism. Itsmejudith (talk) 15:49, 23 July 2008 (UTC)
- So correct it. Take, for instance, the X Fretensis: that legion was left in Syria by Julius Caesar (it was his favourite unit, take for example the famous signifer leap leading his troops ashore in Britain) during the Civil War well over a hundred years before, and although recruiting from the Minervois north of Narbonne in France (the area's modern name still recalling the Legion's tutellary goddess), it never moved, despite at least one major reorganisation. So the suggestion that it landed with Vespasian from Rome is just plain wrong, the legion's LXF stamp on all the Sephoris and Caesarea Maritime roof tiles dating from c30BCE show it was well implanted in Judea and all Vespasian did was call on the garrison force. Some reference works here: Caesar's Legion, Stephen Dando-Collins, ISBN 0-471-09570-2. Journal of Roman Archaeology Supplementary Series #60, Excavations on the Site of the Jerusalem International Comference Centre (Binyanei Ha'uma) ISBN 1-877829-60-1.
- A further point. Josephus is NOT a primary source. His entire commission from Vespasian was to take the primary sources, consolidate them, and write a warts-and-all history of the Jewish War with insider knowledge, and that makes him a very authoritative secondary source, not least because his study was vetted from a very modern viewpoint by Vespasian himself, who wanted to learn lessons from an external observer's criticism of his own failings. Some critics suggest Josephus spun his own role, but then what author does not put something of himself into his work? Indeed, almost all history is written from the victor's viewpoint. The warning suffices to allow us to take appropriate pinches of salt.
- Your source, please? This kind of subjective thinking is what's wrong here in the first place. The reason I'm not tackling it is that WP refuses to value primary sources, reducing itself to third-hand commentary by rejecting OR, which is too often used to mean "working from primary sources", and thereby falling victim to exactly this kind of subjectivity. A balance is needed, representing secondary sources where authoritative, placing them in the context of the primary references. And where authoritative secondary sources do not exist, then the primary sources should most certainly be used alone, but appropriately annotated and cross-referenced.
In addition to Antiquities, which is not very relevant, and Jewish War, Josephus wrote his "Autobiography" which is directly relevant and details fighting in the Galilee. This can be found also in the article on Josephus - at least that should be consulted! [[[User:Mewnews|Mewnews]] (talk) 00:27, 17 May 2009 (UTC)]
Blaming the Revolt on Caligula?!?!
Seriously? First off, there were pleanty of Jewish-Greek tenions prior to Caligula. Second, Caligula reigned from 38-42 and the revolt wasn't until 66. Third, Caligula's statue never went up in Jerusalem (Caligula period riots were over a Greek clay alter). Fourth, Caligula's religous policy only varied in Rome (making Senators honor him as a God). Augustus and Tiberius commonly referred to as a living god in the east already.
Image copyright problem with Image:Second Temple Destroyed.jpg
The image Image:Second Temple Destroyed.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
- That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
- That this article is linked to from the image description page.
AD vs CE edits.
Per WP:ERA, the use of CE vs AD as abbreviations after dates should not be changed without consensus. Both are equally valid, and the version already in use on an article takes precedence unless there is broad consensus to change. Recent edits that changed the abbreviations in this article from CE to AD were therefore reverted. IF there is a wish to change, then it must be discussed and an agreement reached between interested editors before this can proceed. Triona (talk) 10:26, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
- Should remain CE/BCE.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)
- Should revert to and standardize on BC/AD in English language versions. 188.8.131.52 (talk) 19:28, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
Bar Giora faction
It is true that Bar Giora is often considered a Zealot. However in fact, he was leading a faction of his own, completely unrelated to the Zealot factions of northern revolt. Bar Giora's faction is often named "peasantry faction", and its role during the revolt was complicated. Initially Bar-Giora fought together with the main Judean government (Matityahu and Ben-Gurion), but upon defeat of Syrian army, he was not given an official position. He then turned a renegade bandit, leading his comrades to pillage the country-side in Hebron area. In the year 68, however, with the civil war in Jerusalem turning in favor of the Zealots, Bar-Giora was called by surviving elements of the Judean government, and succeeded to take much of the city from the Zealots. From then on, he functioned as one of the leaders of the Judean government and presented a strong counter-force to John's and Eleazar's factions. Further, upon the fall of Jerusalem, unlike John, who was sold into slavery, Bar-Giora was executed as "Jewish leader", recognizing his official role in Judean rebel government.GreyShark (dibra) 17:06, 2 November 2013 (UTC)