Talk:Fish and chips

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Fish on Fridays[edit]

I don't dispute it's a tradition (the local chippy is always queuing out of the door on fridays) but the cite for this links to http://www.culture24.org.uk/art362437 which appears to be an art project and is unrelated to the subject. Not sure what to replace it with - http://www.free*republic.com/focus/f-religion/2649925/posts looks promising, but itself contains unsubstantiated claims (that the Filet-O-Fish was created because McDonalds saw a drop in sales on Friday, which I've never seen stated before). 2001:8B0:178:1:6CF9:C3D1:E387:5C14 (talk) 18:53, 5 October 2012 (UTC)

I've replaced the ref with one from the book already mentioned in the article. Hohenloh + 14:39, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

United States additions[edit]

Is there a reason someone felt the need to mash the US into all of the sections? I'm sure it "exists" there, but fish and Chips is not even close to being a relevant institution like it is in the UK, Australia and NZ. If that's the case, why don't we just list every country in the world and their particular adaptions of the dish?

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.210.240.147 (talk) 16:08, 1 August 2010 (UTC) 

What about Canada??

Origin[edit]

Fish and chips is a traditional take-away English food. It became popular in the 1860's when railways brought fresh fish to the cities over night.The fish is fried in flour batter and eaten with chips. The fish and chips are covered with salt and malt vinegar and wrapped in paper. It's very usual to find people eating them in the street. You can buy them in a lot of fish and chips shops that you can find in the streets and you can also have them in pubs and restaurants.

The origin of fish and chips has long been attributed to early Jewish immigrants to London preparing fish in the traditional method brought with them from the Iberian peninsular. Letsgetthingsright (talk) 03:55, 21 November 2007 (UTC)


Attributed by whom? I have never heard of this.

Also, why does the article claim that the dish is associated with Germany? There are no other references to Germany, and fish and chips appears to be a purely British invention.JohnC (talk) 02:53, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

I've heard of this. There was a programme on radio 4 several years ago about the origins of fish & chips. I recall that two different groups of Jewish immigrants from different parts of europe fled to London, escaping persecution. They became integrated in the community, and one group traditionally ate fried potato, and one fried fish, hence the creation of fish and chips. This will need to be verified though. 86.154.74.121 (talk) 22:59, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Ive heard of this too. There are a fair few verifiable and reputable sources out there that back it up. Cold fried fish is a current Jewish dish, and there appears to be no UK equivalent. Fish and chips suddenly "appear" mostly in areas populated by Jewish immigrants, especially in London. Its very plausable. Im attempting to gather them and expand the history/origins section by including them. It will greatly improve and expand the article. Irondome (talk) 21:20, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

Anglo-American Terms[edit]

I changed the "Naming and terminology" section to "Anglophone terms" and gave it a new introductory sentence. The section is about differences in how chips are named in the English-speaking world. Since the article is about fish and chips, maybe this section could make it explicit that fish and chips are served with thicker fried potato cuts, and that a dish in which the chips are thin (like french fries) should be considered a North American variant of the fish and chips dish. I'm a little hungry right now, so I can't think just how to express this succinctly. Divespluto (talk) 17:47, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Divespluto

History of fish and chips - is it something the British imported form Portugal?[edit]

I am concerned the opening of this article gives a misleading impression of the history of this dish. Some years ago, I am sure I heard it said on a programme on Radio 4 that the dish is not actually of British origin - it is a dish that the British imported from Portugal (to give an idea of when I heard this, it must have been about the time that Robin Cook was claiming that chicken tika masala was now the national dish of Britain). If any one can cite verifiable evidence that the dish originated in Portugal, would this be a better opening to the article? ACEOREVIVED (talk) 20:41, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Rice[edit]

Rice shouldn't be mentioned in this article. Not being xenophobic, but the discussion should be limited to fish and chips. I know chinese chippies often sell fish and chips but I've yet to find one that is as good as a British chippy - and no, before anyone asks, I am not being xenophobic/racist! I wouldn't ask my local chippy to make me a prawn egg foo yung! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashton Archer (talkcontribs) 22:38, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

So many tags?[edit]

I'm sort of new to editing Wikipedia, but I do see "citation needed" tags everywhere. Shouldn't there be one for each paragraph? Is it alright if I take them out? Or am I having to wait? Ron James 007 (talk) 08:14, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Hi Ron. Should we have "citation needed" flags on every paragraph? on every sentence? on every phrase? on every second word? Answer: yes, definitely... see Template:Fact. BUT -- some facts and claims attract little dispute or count as common knowledge or have obvious provenance in the context. And then again, on the other hand, "citation needed" tags get to serve so many useful functions at once: they may mean "This sounds interesting but slightly implausible so please provide some evidence" or: "I don't accept this tripe for a moment and will come back and delete the offending passage unless somebody provides a watertight source pronto". -- One should NEVER delete a "citation needed" flag unless one has either provided a reliable source (well done!) or deleted a flagged passage which has waited "too long" for supporting material (and preferably foreshadowed such deletion on the relevant Talk-page). -- Pedant17 (talk) 12:32, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Excessive detail[edit]

This article seems overly long and full of information that is unverified (and, given the, let's face it, low importance of the subject matter, unverifiable by acceptable sources). Is it really necessary to ramble on in such nauseating detail about whether all six chip shops (yes, all six!) in Holyhead provide water strained from the mushy peas free of charge, or whether chips from Kingston upon Hull have a distinctive orangy hue, or on the incidence of sour cream in different parts of New Zealand? Will we be giving details on the architectural qualities of all 6 of those shops in Holyhead next? Or a pie chart showing the colours of their staffs' respective aprons, perhaps? I get the feeling that if, heaven forfend, one of them started actually charging for their pea-water it would appear in this article the very next day! There is such thing as glut of unimportant imformation. For a start, the various details on regional names for various condiments and side dishes associated with fish and chips in Britain and Ireland alone could be shifted into another article that it wouldn't clog up this one quite so much, along with the various other mind-numbing minutiae on the different species of fish claimed to be eaten in this manner in practically every town on earth... Just a thought! 86.29.193.217 (talk) 19:03, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Haddock Triangle[edit]

I've never heard this term before, despite spending the first 18 years of my life within the Triangle. I'm fairly sure that haddock is the standard fish on offer in most chippies in the North of England, with some exceptions such as in Tyneside (cod/plaice), although Tyneside doesn't seem to have such a high density of chippies compared to West Yorkshire. This so-called Triangle does however definitely have one peculiarity: fish is religiously prepared without the "dark" skin on one side of the fish; in areas outside of the Triangle fish was almost always served "with skin", and therefore, not as pallatable as the "native fare" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.180.142.133 (talk) 01:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

That seems to be a nort/south thing

Nearly all chippies in the south of england leave the skin on, while virtually no chippies in Scotland (both the borders and up north) leave it on. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.16.153.191 (talk) 01:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

Style[edit]

Surely all the instances like "Scotting people prefer X" should be replaced with more neutral and accurate terms such as "X is more common in Scotland"? Turkeyphant 16:08, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Total overhaul needed[edit]

This page has gradually accumulated so much completely unsourced original reporting that it is next to useless as a reliable descriptive document. This has been brought up several times in the past but nothing has been done about it.

I was originally just going to split all the unsourced regional crap out into its own article, but the resulting page would just be a hodge-podge of utter trivia with next to no sourcing. So I'm just getting rid of it.

Hopefully one this has been completed, the page will be compact, verifiable and complete enough at least for Good Article status.

Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:21, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

This article should be re-titled Fish and Chips in Western Europe, this article did at one time have some content from the REST of the world. However someone in their infinite wisdom chose to make this a UK-centric article. Trumpy (talk) 04:49, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
Let's face it, the term "fish and chips" originated in the UK and was popularized from there (though by Italians!). Fish was fried all over the world from the time fire was invented but it wasn't called fish and chips, even after the introduction of the potato. I agree that the older versions contained some interesting information, but those versions also contained a considerable amount of trivia, unsourced info and duplication which made them very ungainly, and I think the present version is a lot more balanced. There's nothing stopping anyone adding to it (though with sources, of course). Hohenloh + 12:39, 10 November 2009 (UTC)
The Italian angle on the emergence of fish and chips in the UK (esp. in Scotland) is an interesting one. "La sagra del pesce e patate" in Barga, Tuscany is an example of celebrating this. The real origin of fish and chips in the UK might even come from a combination of Wallonian Belgian pommes frites (http://www.newstatesman.com/200601230017) with Sephardi Jewish fried fish from Portugal (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3380151.stm). This might be a stretch of the imagination and seems to have no historical basis so far but might be worth investigating in as far is that it possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.1.245.117 (talk) 00:08, 28 November 2010 (UTC)
TBH, I have never heard of "compressed rissoles of Cod roe" being sold in a chip shop. Is this s specific regional variation? As for the reference to the battered potato scallops or cakes, in Scotland, and most other places I have been in England, I get served these if I asked for FRITTERS.2.221.73.136 (talk) 19:02, 24 March 2013 (UTC)Lance Tyrell

Mushy peas[edit]

Do others agree that this article should mention mushy peas as a traditional accompaniment to fish and chips? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.19.198.71 (talk) 21:13, 10 September 2009 (UTC)

Of course! I was shocked to see no mention of mushy peas! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.203.192 (talk) 11:36, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

National Federation of Fish Friers[edit]

There should be a link to the industry body of fish and chips on this page. The National Federation has been steering the industry and looking after its members since around 1930. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.193.150.10 (talk) 08:18, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Globalise? Help us out here, which nation. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:25, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
Google is that way. UK. I think it's a good idea. Fences&Windows 00:20, 16 September 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like POV. The industry body should certainly be mentioned, but not pushing it. Advertising is their concern, not ours. We do this voluntarily. Si Trew (talk) 13:32, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Chipper[edit]

As a life-long resident of the south of England, I have heard a fish and chip shop referred to as a "chippie" a lot, but I have never heard it called a "chipper". The cited webpage (Chippy smells of chips complaint) appears to be used as a source of evidence for this term, but in fact it does not include the word "chipper" at all. Perhaps this is a regional term, but as it is, this must be classified as an unsourced statement in this article. leevclarke (talk) 23:22, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

It's known as a "chipper" in Ireland, not a "chippie". I've heard it called a "chipper" in London, but this could be from immigrants.Hohenloh + 02:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
Believe it or not there was an argument about this recently on a forum I'm a member of. Apparently 'chipper' is a Scottish/Irish term, with 'chippie' being more common in England and wales. Danikat (talk) 20:34, 8 March 2010 (UTC)
I've lived all over UK - and never heard the expression "chipper", always "chippie", except a couple of times in Northern Ireland. DickyP (talk) 09:10, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Photos[edit]

Many of the photos show fish and french fries, which is an altogether different thing from fish and chips. French fries are much thinner, and give the meal a totally different aspect. Please, can we just have photos of fish and chips in an article on fish and chips??? 86.133.210.177 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:07, 21 June 2010 (UTC).

Are you sure that distinction is really established? Certainly in most of the USA any type of deep fried potato strips are called 'Fries' or 'French Fries', and as I understood it in the UK the same is true with the term 'Chips'. robo (talk) 21:41, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Robo is correct although, in the UK, French Fries are sometimes considered to be a particular variety of chips because very skinny, flavourless chips (with a high fat content and which go cold as soon as they are removed from the fryer) are often sold by the main international fast food chains as "French Fries" or "fries". As far as I know, the French embassy has not formally objected to this slander of French cuisine.
The chips shown in most of the pictures are fairly skinny but only the Hesburger image shows really horribly skinny ones (and the fish looks horrible too). The lead image shows medium size chips and is representative of what you would typically get from a British chip shop. All the images are perfectly legitimate images of fish and chips. An additional image showing some chunkier chips would be nice, but the images we have at the moment are perfectly valid. We may have an idea of what constitutes a prefect portion of fish and chips, and that idea probably does include nice chunky chips, but that isn't always what you get when you buy fish and chips and we shouldn't pretend that it is. --DanielRigal (talk) 22:16, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Sauces[edit]

Regarding extras such as curry sauce, etc - it may have been only Northern England and Wales in the past... although I can't remember that - but having lived within both Devon, and Kent, I can say that this isn't the case now - not sure quite how or where to find a citation for either assertion though. 144.124.16.33 (talk) 02:43, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

You can still get curry sauce in chippies here in Devon, but I think it's mainly to complement chips, rather than fish & chips. That is, curry and chips or fish and chips, but not curry, fish and chips. same goes with cheese. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:48, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Vinegar[edit]

Condiment for fish and chips — People commonly use malt vinegar (or non-brewed condiment) on chips. I don't quite understand why it is used on chips and fish. Doesn't it spoil the flavour? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nsk nsk (talkcontribs) 16:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Depends if you like vinegar or not :) The vinegar is mainly to counteract all the oil - compare lemon, or tartare sauce with other fish dishes. Totnesmartin (talk) 19:27, 12 March 2011 (UTC)
Lots of people don't like it - but nevertheless it is popular - the entry is a statement of absolute fact. DickyP (talk) 09:02, 21 May 2011 (UTC)


Article states "Suppliers may use malt vinegar, onion vinegar (used for pickling onions)," - but I have never witnessed the latter part. I have seen vendors with malt vinegar that has had onions added, which gives a similar flavour, but this is not the same as the vinegar used for pickling onions, eggs, pickles etc.

I have never seen a chipshop in the south serve malt vinegar in 40 years. And I have visited a few. All self -respecting chipshops serve non- brewed condiment (n.b.c) a coloured acetic acid, or the juice from pickled onion jars. NEVER malt vinegar. Shudder. Irondome (talk) 06:18, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I guarantee you that every chip shop in East Anglia is using malt vinegar, and we have some of the best shops in the country =D

Many (most?) chippers in Ireland have malt vinegar available (well, it's in a malt vinegar bottle!). Hohenloh + 14:52, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Ubiquity of vinegar[edit]

Why ever is the first reference to malt vinegar in this article on what people like in Edinburgh? Vinegar is a popular accompaniment to fish and chips in ever parts of the United Kingdom, including many parts of England. ACEOREVIVED (talk) 09:51, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Chicken tikka masala[edit]

I would like to know if chicken Tikka Masala is today more popular than fish and chips to take away — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juanaall (talkcontribs) 19:35, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

The Chicken tikka masala article says it's the most popular restaurant dish, but says nothing about takeaways. Let's see: "In 2008 over 250 million fish and chip shop meals (featuring fish) were sold throughout the UK, proving that UK's fish and chip shops are still the nation's favourite hot takeaway outlet," according to a chip shop chain's website

"Where the British choose to eat

· 51% Fish and chip outlets · 46% Meal down the local pub. Meals served in pubs and bars are the largest market within the eating out sector with sales of £7.6 billion. · 45% Chinese takeaways and restaurants. · 35% Pizza takeaways and restaurants · 31% Indian takeaways and restaurants"

from a web page for fast food businesses. it looks like fish and chips are still number one, then. Totnesmartin (talk) 12:23, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Edit reverted[edit]

I have reverted the recent edit by User:AngJoplin because it looked like it was made purely because of advertising purposes. It is also AngJoplin's only edit ever so far. JIP | Talk 20:43, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

While you are editing, the reference to tomato sauce should describe it as 'less astringent', not 'less stringent'.

Fixed, after checking what "stringent" and "astringent" mean at Wiktionary. (Hey, English is not my native language.) JIP | Talk 18:46, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikiproject Fishes[edit]

Removing tag associating this article with Wikiproject Fishes. "WikiProject Fishes aims to help organise our rapidly growing collection of articles about fish taxa. Issues outside the scope of this WikiProject include fishkeeping (fish aquarium topics), fishing, fisheries, fish cuisine topics, fish farm topics, fish market topics, fish processing topics, fish product sales topics, fish products topics, and fish trap topics." [direct cut and paste from project main page]. This article does not fall within the scope of that wikiproject. Neil916 (Talk) 07:37, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Any room for this?[edit]

World's biggest fish and chips. Makes me proud to be British. Totnesmartin (talk) 12:47, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I guess so and added it to the article in the Vendors section. TMCk (talk) 13:16, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Jewish origin of fish and chips. I will discuss then add after consensus reached.[edit]

Fried fish was a Jewish Spanish/Portuguese introduction into England. There is no record of an English dish of this type until the introduction of the fish and chip shop in the 19th century. The article does not state this explicitly or even implicitly. It was brought to England by Sephardic Jews as long ago as the 17th century. Due to Passover, lights could not be kindled, so fish was prepared Passover eve and eaten on saturday. What effectively is cod, etc brought from a contemporary UK chip shop and left to go cold, then eaten later is a similar idea to the home made Jewish original. Its excellent :). The first cited reference in the article to a fried fish "warehouse" comes from Oliver Twist (1838) a work that is specifically of an East London and Jewish backdrop. Malin and Issacs were both Jews and popularised fish and chips in large areas of England, especially in London and the south east in the 19th century. This coincided with mass urbanisation and new culinary arrangements and requirements on the part of working class people. Belgium fried potato slices cut in the shape of a fish are also in the historical record. Belgium influence is more likely in the south of England than the North, although the commercial chip has a case for being located in the north. I will confirm sources and edit. The main point I am making is that Fish and Chips is an immigrant dish, a product of an interesting fusion of already existing foodways, which do not appear to be indiginious to the UK. just as is Tikka Masala, its cited "rival". Its not indiginous. Ironic. it would add greatly to the article if the historical origins of this classic dish was covered. Irondome (talk) 05:57, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Please supply scholarly sources for these claims. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:39, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

I intend to. Irondome (talk) 06:49, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

If you read all your sources they present opinion as fact (for entertainment purposes), and then you've placed them onto Wikipoodia as facts. I understand that you probably want to have Jewish people own fish and chips, rather than the more obvious idea that it was an invention as a result of catholic religious laws that prevented the eating of meat on Fridays. However, your argument and presented citations are incredibly weak. You should remove your claims from the main article until you can find actual evidence to your claims. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.114.64.140 (talk) 08:35, 23 September 2014 (UTC)
Probably not scholarly enough, but http://www.allinlondon.co.uk/life/index.php?fid=67 Nickpheas (talk) 14:50, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Nice one Irondome (talk) 18:13, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Joseph Malin is also briefly mentioned here. BBC should be a valid journalistic (if not academic) source. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:07, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Infobox pic[edit]

I've removed File:Fish and Chips with sides of coleslaw and macaroni salad.jpg as it is much inferior to the existing one. The colours are sickly, the chips are the wrong size, the side dishes are eccentric; it's also clear that this relates to an American version of fish and chips, rather than the classic British version. If anybody has a a rationale for changing the image, this would be the place to post it. --John (talk) 13:56, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Those are Goujons and thin chips, so not really proper fish and chips, so it is not really the right picture for this article. I have never been to a chippy and been offered macaroni salad or coleslaw for that matter, just mushy peas. It would be better to find a picture of fish and chips wrapped in either paper or newspaper.

(Fdsdh1 (talk) 18:12, 29 May 2013 (UTC))

I agree. I have removed it again. --John (talk) 18:26, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
The image being added is also a copyvio; see http://fishandchipsalisal.com/menu.html . --- Barek (talkcontribs) - 19:58, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Hah. Well, we definitely cannot use it then! --John (talk) 20:00, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Accompaniments[edit]

Dear hohenloh - I see that you take wikipedia seriously, as indeed I do. May I ask why you keep re editing my additions on fish & chips? Every fish & chip shop in Britain and quite a few in Ireland will sell pickles to go with your fish and chips. You can choose from jars of pickled onions, pickled eggs (my particular favourite) & Gherkins. There is nothing controversial in my comments so there is no need to remove them. I have now sourced/referenced the information for pickled eggs. Does anyone else want to comment.dorkinglad(talk)—Preceding undated comment added 14:26, 13 June 2013‎

This doesn't seem very controversial, but I'd note that the blog you've used as a source doesn't meet WP:RS. It'd also be good to have a source that describes these being eaten as accompaniments to a meal of fish and chips (rather than, say, only being eaten with plain chips, or by themselves). Even the given blog source only mentions them being sold in chip shops, it doesn't say how they're eaten. --McGeddon (talk) 13:49, 13 June 2013 (UTC)

Pickled onions, gherkins and eggs[edit]

There is no mention of either of these essential accompaniments. Is there a reason for this? I can see that there are regional and national differences but surely these are as unbiquitous as mushy peas. .dorkinglad(talk)—Preceding undated comment added 14:34, 13 June 2013‎

A "British Chips" page is needed[edit]

There should be a page on British-style Chips, including information on where similar chips are prevalent, and with only the slightest mention of the weird chips found in places further west than the Blaskets. 94.30.84.71 (talk) 10:40, 29 December 2013 (UTC)

Take it to WP:AFC. But in my opinion, its already covered in an existing article. Murry1975 (talk) 10:49, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
PS since its "west of the Blaskets", would it not be an Irish-style chip??? ;) Murry1975 (talk) 10:52, 29 December 2013 (UTC) hi

I totally agree, wikipedia has lost the plot on this. It doesn't even list chips in its list of potato based dishes. Chipshops are a massive business in the UK, chips are not british slang for a side of french fries but the actual correct British word for a type of food. I live in an area where there's a chipshop every half mile. The term 'fish and chips' is being used because americans don't understand the British term 'chips', or what a chipshop is. Fish at a chipshop tends to be expensive, I wouldn't be surprised if saveloy and chips, sausage and chips, pie and chips or just chips on their own we're at least as popular a choice as fish and chips. Suggest "Chips (British English)".80.1.165.31 (talk) 09:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)