Talk:Fisting

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Delete?[edit]

Isn't it time we removed filth like this from the internet? Also a fictional act such as the one described herein is hardly "encyclopedic". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.111.63.147 (talk) 11:25, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

No it isn't time we removed material like this from the internet, neither is it fictional.--feline1 (talk) 18:53, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Besides. oh IP user, Wikipedia is WP:NOT Censored for anyone. Even kids; don't like it? Don't look at it :) Thor Malmjursson (talk) 01:07, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

You forgot to point out the Obvious. This person did a search to wind up on this page in the first place and apparently is interested in learning more about this "filth". I do have an issue with the page though, there is no section on the safeness of the act. Is there any risk of anal muscle injury to the fistee? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.116.149.212 (talk) 18:35, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Fictional act...? I beg to differ. I have personal experience with fisting being a completely possible act... o.o Jcmcc450 (talk) 02:09, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
Fisting (sometimes called handballing -- why isn't that term listed in the article?) is potentially lethal. The inserter must have closely and smoothly trimmed nails that are thoroughly pared, and his or her hands must be extremely clean. A tear or puncture of the rectal wall could be fatal. There is probably little danger to the anal ring, though, as it can stretch a ridiculous amount when the insertee is thoroughly relaxed. If you don't believe this, rent some videos. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 00:31, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Updated to include reference from the book Trust, the Hand Book: A Guide to the Sensual and Spiritual Art of Handballing K8 fan (talk) 18:21, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I am glad people can come to wiki to learn about these things. until today i didn't even know fisting existed. i would never do it though 65.183.212.114 (talk) 01:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Risks[edit]

The request above for a section on the risks of this act is very reasonable. I shall initiate such a section. Warren Zhang (talk) 03:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Point under risks referenced by 8 is only valid if injury occurs. Air in itself is never a problem.. or tampons or normal sexual intercourse would already pose risks. The statement as made based on the reference is incorrect and unverifiable. Please adjust. Anon. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.46.202.80 (talk) 13:17, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Michaelangelo's "Last Judgement"[edit]

I deleted the first picture of Michaelangelo's Last Judgement because it is a wrong interpratation of the fresco in the church. As you can see in the original image (at the bottom on the right) that hand is not inside the uppper body.

Picture removed from article: (do not repost please) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Michelangelo_-_Punishment_of_sodomy.png

Original photo of the fresco: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Lastjudgement.jpg (Hi-Res) Please see original image. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.64.82.208 (talk) 23:07, 2 January 2009 (UTC)

Um, if it's not inside, where is the hand going? It looks to me as if it is fisting. 64.27.9.197 (talk) 17:23, 16 June 2009 (UTC)
Looks like it to me, too. However, It is inappropriate to post the image in this article, because it would be a corruption of the work: The author intends to show punishment for sin, not to depict sin. It was not intended by the author to be an illustration of what is described by this article. -- Newagelink (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:26, 22 July 2009 (UTC).
otoh, michaelangelo's dead, so who cares what he'd want? re-added as it quite clearly illustrates anal-fisting, and is probably the only non-(c) image we'll find.
also: lol at the idea that the punishment for sodomy is anal fisting :D --Dak (talk) 06:44, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
As Newagelink noted, the image repeatedly reported here (most recently by Dak) is not from the work by Michelangelo -- in the original image (referenced by 88.64.82.208 above), the hand is not inserted; the wrist and curled knuckles are clearly visible. Also, this article is about sexual activity, implicitly between consenting adults. The (altered) image is about punishment and is therefore inappropriate for this article. HalJor (talk) 04:43, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
well, one man's pleasure is another man's pain... does it really matter what michaelangelo originally meant? are we worried about disrespecting mich' by misusing his work, or about the implication that anal fisting is teh evilz? either way, it's an image that depicts anal fisting, the image inandof itself depicts anal fisting in a relatively neutral way, and it's probably the only open-source image depicting anal fisting that we'll find.
gonna talk about it here rather than edit warring, but please explain exactly why we can't use this free (as in source) image to illustrate the article? --Dak (talk) 12:08, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
well, if you don't want to talk about it: image re-inserted, as it's a free, public-domain illustration of the subject of the article. (c) expires for a reason, and that's so that we can make use of peoples' work however we want (eventually): what Michaelangelo may or may not have wanted, and wether or not it's been modified, are both irrelivent. --Dak (talk) 01:53, 23 August 2009 (UTC)
Dak, HalJor's points were that A) this is not by Michelangelo -- I don't know, so I won't comment -- and B) it is unprofessional and not befitting an encyclopedia because the context of the image contradicts the context of the article. My point in discussing "what the author intended" was about context: You can't take, for example, the murder of a war prisoner who happens to be black and insert it in an article about racism. "Well it's a picture of a black guy getting killed so we can stick it in about racism" is basically your argument. The image we're discussing does not depict fisting for sexual pleasure, which this article discusses. I am frustrated by your stubbornness; you seem to want the image included simply from its vulgarity, ignoring (or hopefully not understanding) the points that have been made. If you persist, I'll be forced to assume you're trolling. Furthermore, read very carefully http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_wp_is_not#Wikipedia_is_not_censored -- I quote: "images that would be considered offensive, profane, or obscene by typical Wikipedia readers should be used if and only if their omission would cause the article to be less informative, relevant, or accurate, and no equally suitable alternatives are available." The image does not make the article more informative, and actually makes it less relevant (contradicting context) and accurate (not anatomically correct). You have absolutely no ground to stand on for including this image. Please stop. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Newagelink (talkcontribs) 04:06, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
Given that the image is illustrative, then it's ommision DOES make the article less informative, unless you can find a suitable replacement. And if you check the article The_Last_Judgment_(Michelangelo) you'll find that, OBVIOUSLY ENOUGH, sodomy is not, in actual fact, being portrayed as the punishment for sodomy -- rather, sins and virtues are both being portrayed. Weather Michaleangelo thought that anal fisting was a sin is irrelevent -- the image portrays anal fisting for sexual pleasure.
(as an aside, in the abscence of any actual imagry of racism, i'd consider a black guy being lynched in a non-racist way to be better than nothing, although obviously some actual racism would be better. I have actually looked for CC pictures of fisting, but can find none).
i'm going to put the picture back in. If you disagree, I suggest one of those 'request for commentry' thingumyjoggers to get some other peoples' opinions --Dak (talk) 21:08, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Know what, the original provided here does not illustrate what the article is illustrating. If a corruption is needed to illustrate it then obviously it cannot be attributed to the original source. But why does there need to be any illustartion at all? The article is illustrative enough and it doesn't require much imagination to see a hand inserted into an anus or vagina. Using no censorship to include a vulgar image isn't reason enough if it doesn't add to the article's usefulness. Even if these conditions are satisfied there is still an issue with copyright. Public domain only applies to the original work so if someone makes substantial changes to a derivitive it may be regarded as their own ip without affecting the status of the original. Biofase flame| stalk  22:35, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

  1. How can you claim that an illustration of fisting does not illustrate the article on fisting?
  2. why do you persist in calling it a corruption, when Michaelangelo was representing the sexual act of fisting in that part of the murial?
  3. if you think that an image of fisting is so vulgar, then why your interest in the (presumably also vulgar) article on the same subject?
  • and, as for not 'needing' an illustration, the WP:MOS suggests starting articles with a lead-image or infobox (presumably as it makes the article look better, and is more... umm... 'illustrative' of the subject matter).

--Dak (talk) 18:30, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Re 1: This is not an illustration of fisting any more than a photo of rape is an illustration of sexual intercourse. Fisting, in the context of this article, is a mutually consensual sexual act. In the disputed illustration, it is an act of punishment (as you have noted yourself) and as such, the recipient is not consenting.
Re 2: It is a corruption, because Michelangelo did not depict the hand actually being inserted into the anus. As I stated above, the wrist is clearly visible in Michelangelo's work; in the disputed illustration, it is not. (Don't believe me? Download the original here, zoom in near center-right, and play with the brightness/contrast if you have to.) Any reference to what Michelangelo intended in this disputed illustration is completely moot.
Re 3: It is not that the image is vulgar. It is merely inappropriate for this article because for the reasons stated in Re 1 above.
Re 4: We are not debating whether this article needs an illustration. It just needs to be an appropriate selection. The claim that the disputed illustration is "probably the only non-(c) image we'll find" is completely false. There is nothing preventing you, or anyone, from producing your own illustration and releasing it to the community. HalJor (talk) 17:06, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

re 1: as i said, if you check the wp article on the picture, you'll find that it depicts the act of sodomy, not the punishment for sodomy (seriously, the punishment for sodomy isn't going to be more sodomy, is it?). it's fair to assume, then, that the act depicts consensual sodomy, tho, according to you (and i'd agree), "any reference to what Michelangelo intended is completely moot". It appears to be fisting. ergo, it is. claims as to consent or otherwize IN REGUARDS TO A PAINTING are somewhat irrelevent, barring it clearly being one or the other (which it isn't). it just depicts sodomy (neither clearly rape, nor clearly consensual); Michaelangelo probably intended it to be consensual, as he's depicting kinky perversions in that part of the painting (not punishments).

re2: It is not modified (other than the colour drained), tho i do agree on closer inspection that the fist is not in the anus (in either the original or the image in the article... looking closely, you can see the curled fingers in both images). however, it does look like it is attempted, mid, or pre-fisting (or possibly anal fingering), and at a glance the fingers aren't notisable so it just looks like fisting).

re4: ok, then here's my suggestion:

  • we leave the image in, on the grounds that it's better than nothing and it's the only picture that is (copyright-wize) acceptable for inclusion that has been presented, but acknowledge that it's no where near 100% satisfactory
  • if a better, usable image turns up, we replace the image with that one.
  • No, I am not going to make said image... if it bugs you so much, why don't you? (tho, for the record, i searched flickr for creative-commons fisting pics, but alas, there were none...).

An alternative, as the image is in the public domain, is that one of us could modify it to appear more like fisting, release our modifications into the public domain, declair that our derived work depicts consensual sodomy, upload it as 'sodomy (modified from public-domain work by Michaelangelo)', and use that for the article?

--Dak (talk) 01:29, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

1\ You noted that the image depicts punishment, which is inherently non-consensual, and therefore not appropriate for an article on consensual sex. There is no context for the picture.
2\ The fact that color is drained means it has been modified. And since the fist is not inserted, it cannot be assumed that it ever would be.
Finally, the image is not "better than nothing" because it does not depict the act being described in the article.
Re-inserting the image to solicit comments isn't going to work either, because it leaves the article in an inferior state while discussion happens. Incidentally, you are the only person in this entire discussion who has suggested leaving the picture in -- while two other editors (besides myself) have asked you to not re-insert it. HalJor (talk) 05:14, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
There are a couple of things that are bothering me about this.
Where is this depicted in the original painting? I have been reviewing it for over half an hour and i cannot find it. Surely since noöne else contests this matter it must be visible somewhere.
UPDATE - i finally found it in the original image. Due to the flesh tones it is clear there that it is a curled hand. In the derivative the lack of colour as well as the low resolution result in the curled hand appearing to be the scrotum of the other man. Genital areas were covered in the painting save for those depicted as entirely in the realm of sin at the bottom. As such the derivative is misleading. jh0367 (talk) 06:22, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Given that is has the colour removed and has been isolated from the rest of the original image i would argue that it is a derivative and as such you should be citing the artist who made the derivative as well as /or/ instead of the original painter in both the source and the licensing rights . As such it may not be in the public domain and thus NOT available for use in Wikipedida.
Use of a derivative of a religious painting modified so as to extol the virtues of anal fisting distorts the context of the image and of the article. I don't have personal objections to anal fisting but i was quite surprised to see a Renaissance-era-looking image appear in the article. To even imply that the Sistine Chapel has a depiction of such a sex act when it is not true does not belong in an encyclopædia.
The argument has been stated numerous times that there is no better image available. I would like to advise of two options to resolve that. The first is to have a drawing made, much like most other articles of this genre have in their infoboxes. [1] The other alternative is to create an image/photograph and release it with a CC license, upload it and replace the contested image that is presently being used. [2] I would recommend the former as it would fall in line with the style of similar articles. jh0367 (talk) 06:08, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
The issue is the image is attributed to Michaelangelo which just is not true. It's no more true than if you took someone off the street (which is what this is), had them draw a copy of the Mona Lisa with a beard, and then post under it, "The bearded lady, as depicted by da Vinci." It's fine to say it's a depiction of "fisting"; but it's not fine to say it's Michaelangelo's depiction of fisting. Which it is clearly not. The original picture shows the hand outside the person's body, the write and fist clearly visible. The sketch obviously does not show that; but the sketch is NOT by Michaelangelo. Mefanch (talk) 21:58, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
Edit war reported. HalJor (talk) 05:37, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

If the Sixtine Chapel has an image of a guy putting a fist up some other's guy ass, then I would expect that some source would comment on this fact. Either a sexuality book explaining the sexual ideas at that time or the history of fisting, or a religious book explaining what sort of punishment it was and why it was depicted like that, or even a popular culture book listing curiosities in art. The pictures on the chapel have been very studied, so there should be some source talking about that one. Then, we can use their assesment of the significance of the picture. Without any source, and with so many doubts about the actual action, I wouldn't use that picture at all. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:31, 12 September 2009 (UTC)

Citations[edit]

Why is there a Citation Needed tag for: "Fisting has been performed on (and by) both men and women; gay, straight and otherwise."

This is pretty much common knowledge. Ever hear of the Romans? pjh3000 (talk) 20:37, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm, common flaw in policy perhaps? Biofase flame| stalk  04:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Actually, the {{Fact}} tag is on the next sentence about the three main techniques that have developed. Surely, one of the sources under References can supply something for that. Perhaps there is something in The Intelligent Man’s Guide or one of the other works? I’m not familiar with the sources and so cannot suggest which one might be able to provide a useful footnote. — SpikeToronto (talk) 07:03, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

Some fistees also enjoy deeper penetration, in which the hand or hands are inserted into the sigmoid colon and large intestine, with the most experienced sometimes being able to accommodate the arm or arms all the way up to the shoulder. This statement is probably the most ridiculously dubious I have ever come across in this type of article. We're talking about human beings here, not ruminants. There is no fricking way you can insert a human arm up to the shoulder up another human's arsehole (without killing them). I tend to think that this was put in as a hoax - can anyone actually cite this, or it's going to get the chop! — JulesVerne (talk) 16:48, 07 December 2009 (GMT)

It is fairly common and you can even find it online. Try searching for "Dorian fisting" for female-to-male. You can see male-to-male (definitely not my thing) here. Unfortunately male-to-female or female-to-female havn't appeared on the internet AFAIK except in erotic stories and artwork. DinDraithou (talk) 17:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Indeed, you could find photos and videos of such deep fisting pretty easily online should you wish. --feline1 (talk) 18:54, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I would still like a non porn-site citation (the world of porn is often "exaggerated"). From a medical/anatomical standpoint, it would seem difficult or dangerous. Fribbler (talk) 01:03, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
You say "porn". That's not what I said. Again, watch the sample movie [here. DinDraithou (talk) 01:13, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Ok. Watched it. That's clearly a porn site. Not really a reliable source. I'd prefer a newspaper article, or a journal article saying that fisting occurs to shoulder level. "Internet videos" are often aided by special effects and I'm still not sure such extensive insertion is possible. Can you dig anything up? Fribbler (talk) 01:19, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't think I'm going to bother, or need to. Go ask a doctor. DinDraithou (talk) 01:43, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Well no, you don't need to find a ref, but I was hoping for some help since you know more about it than I. We've all seen the a&e cases of object insertion etc., but I can't believe an object a full metre in length and 10cm in diameter can enter the colon of a person with normal anatomy. Fribbler (talk) 12:27, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Having seen videos on the internet that have girls having sex with abnormally large penises, 20"+, with the caveat of "oops, in these frames you can see the performers /actual/ penis, not the latex/silicone attachment everyone's trying very hard to pretend is their penis", I'm going to say "not a reliable source". In the video I saw there, what was described as "armpit-deep" was realistically a couple of inches beyond the elbow, "aided" by the momentum of shoulders flexing in follow through to give the appearance of something much deeper. A reliable source would be an objective text, preferably medical. Without an objective citation that it can be done, I'm not convinced. Achromatic (talk) 17:45, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

In a sigmoidoscopy, the rigid “sigmoidoscope is advanced, usually as far up as the sigmoid colon or descending colon.” (“Sigmoidoscopy,” Encylopedia. MedlinePlus. (Retrieved 2009-12-09.))

Also, remember that the entire large intestine — from the cecum to the anus — is flexible; it is not rigid. The poor medical intern tasked with performing a digital disimpaction may, on rare occasion — in an examination under anesthetic — have to insert himself/herself as far as the sigmoid colon. — SpikeToronto 20:05, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

A rigid sigmoidoscope is usually just under 13mm in diameter, its not an arm. And in terms of digital disimpaction, the sigmoid colon is a maximun of 15-20cm from the anus. Shoulder depth penetration seems to be a figment of pornography. Fribbler (talk) 20:21, 9 December 2009 (UTC)
Exactly. Just beacause I can go online and see 'genuine photos' of men with supposedly 15 inch penises, it doesn't make it real. There may be a tiny number of men who actually fit these dimensions, but in reality, photoshopping of the images of normal porn actors is rampant, to the point where there would be no reliable case for using porn sites to cite a wikipedia article on penis size. Even if the colon and intestines are flexible, human arms only bend in two places (excluding the shoulder). I find it improbable to the point of impossibility that you could insert an arm to shoulder depth up someone's backside without causing serious injury or death. For goodness sake - it's like something out of American Psycho. The editor who entered that line must be chuckling to himself. JulesVerne (talk) 09:41, 10 December 2009 (GMT)

Request for photographs???[edit]

I'm curious as to why a couple of entries - fisting and creampie(sex act) - have a request for photographs associated to the article in the discussion tab.

Yet from what I saw in the creampie - there is an ongoing battle/argument over having photographs. When photos are uploaded they're deleted.

Why have this "request for photographs" on entries about explicit sexual acts?

Rayngrant (talk) 22:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)Ray Grant

Ever heard of trolls? 193.157.242.51 (talk) 16:22, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

In Italian culture, the current third picture is the "fig" sign, and considered incredibly obscene. It is referenced in Dante's Inferno. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.254.156.202 (talk) 02:07, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

And? Biofase flame| stalk  04:06, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

The drama that ensues with depictions of extreme sex acts is usually well over the top, but most come from the batshit insane OMGCENSOREVERYTHING angle. I, whilst not being pro-censorship in any way, am against depictions of hardcore acts that would generally recieve an above R18+ rating purely because I know for a fact that thousands of schools across the world will be spoiled sports, and god knows when the nazi.. uh, I mean government in Australia brings in the filter we can kiss Wikipedia goodbye. If the photo even ADDS to understanding beyond what the text does, even just BARELY, I'd totally err on the side of inclusion. But in this instance, the article is very well written and descriptive and the photograph in question adds absolutely nothing beyond controversy and dramu generation by trolls. Ironically it seems to be trolls trolling trolls, as trolls want the porn, and trolls baww about wanting it down. 124.179.19.254 (talk) 11:33, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

"If the photo even ADDS to understanding beyond what the text does, even just BARELY, I'd totally err on the side of inclusion." Except for paedophilia and bestiality, I presume?

Why point specifically to GLBT?[edit]

What exactly does this have to do with WikiProject LGBT studies? Associating fisting specifically with that is kind of offensive. Anal sex I can see, but fisting? That seems to cross a line. Unless there are studies to back up the idea that gays and/or lesbians are the predominant practitioners, it's a blind and somewhat prejudiced assumption. --Mattbrown04 (talk) 02:43, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Most gay men dont fist..but most "fisters" are gay men.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.255.46.89 (talk) 03:38, 8 January 2010 (UTC)
Hmm...this reliable source says that "The practice of fisting is a form of sexual activity confined primarily to the homosexual community."[3]
That ref is dated 1983, and I know several straight couples who would debate that statement. HalJor (talk) 02:53, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I have to agree with HalJor. While the source may have been reliable almost 30 years ago when it was published, the sexual practices of heterosexuals have changed dramatically in the ensuing three decades. One only has to look at the dramatic growth in the hetero porn industry as prima facie evidence of the sexual liberation/awakening of the straight side of Kinsey’s (in)famous scale. — SpikeToronto 05:33, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
OK, I didn't realize the date of the publication. In any case, I would bet that most fisting is done by the porn community. A Quest For Knowledge (talk) 18:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)
I think a study would find that there are more heterosexual couples who engage in anal sex, or who engage in fisting than there are gay people who do so. Homosexuality is not about a particular sex act, but about people of the same sex who love one another and want to share their lives together. Atom (talk) 22:01, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Why the hell[edit]

are editors using a still-animated pic for illustrations of this sexual act? Is it that bad of a taboo that it cannot be shown graphically? I thought Wikipedia was uncensored. LaRouxEMP (talk) 12:41, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

The photograph that was removed did not show anything that was immediately and obviously connected to fisting. It merely showed the two orifices of a female photographic subject that may or may not have been connected to the subject of this article. Also, the drawing currently used conveys the topic well and should only be replaced if the replacement improves the encyclopedia reader’s understanding of the topic. Greater “graphicness” is not necessarily an improvement. — SpikeToronto 18:00, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

"Techniques"[edit]

Needs work.  TyrS  chatties  02:08, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

So, do the work! Drive-by application of templates, rather than rolling up your sleeves, dusting off your keyboard, and getting down to writing doesn’t really help. — SpikeToronto 06:15, 15 January 2011 (UTC)
On re-reading the above, I realize that it sounds rather peevish. I did not intend that. Let me put it another way: When you say, “Needs work,” what would you like to see done to the section? Would you feel confident about improving the section yourself? Perhaps drafting a new version in your userspace for review and eventual incorporation? Thanks! — SpikeToronto 06:51, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Very, very lopsided presentation[edit]

Currently the focus is almost exclusively on women doing vaginal fisting, with an extensive list of porn actresses and no mention or illustration of men self-fisting or getting fisted. Please do not remove the Unbalanced box without discussion here.  TyrS  chatties  02:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

The Unbalanced template has been incorrectly applied. That template and its application are subsumed by one of Wikipedia’s core policies: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (shortcut → WP:NPOV). Thus, {{Unbalanced}} is used in those instances where one suspects an intention motivated by mala fides. I do not believe that there was ever such an animus with this wikiarticle. Rather, I think that no one has yet contributed the male-as-fistee viewpoint/perspective. Nor has anyone added such gay porn fisting luminaries as the glorious Ashley Ryder. But, that doesn’t mean that their absence from the article is a result of undue weight having been intentionally given to the female-as-fistee viewpoint/perspective at the expense of the male-as-fistee viewpoint/perspective. Rather, it is just that the article currently lacks sufficient breadth. Some form of section expansion template might have been more appropriate.

I do agree, TyrS, that you have hit upon something that this article lacks and that is the male-as-fistee perspective. If you have a yen to see it added, why not write up such a section? It would certainly lend greater breadth to the article. (But, can you imagine the edit war that would ensue if there were any such images added to article?! Sheesh!) — SpikeToronto 06:36, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Errrrrr, why do we even have a list of porn actors/actresses that have done fisting at some point in their carreer. That's not encyclopedic. We should include only people that have secondary sources mentioning that the person is notable in the field of fisting due to some specific reason. Currently, there is no such a source in the article, so we should remove the whole section. --Enric Naval (talk) 10:02, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

actresses / models[edit]

Please add Aria Giovanni to section "People noted to have engaged in fisting". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.112.249.25 (talk) 07:57, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Done. I've seen a scene, probably the one you have, but we'll need a source for it. When I created the section back in 2009 I sourced every performer in one way or another, but now we have all these who haven't been. And it's a shame O-Pearl's article was deleted. I argued for keeping it but there were too many votes against. Maybe it could be created again but she is no longer active after having her baby, in 2008 I think. I loved that enormous pierced cunt, a work of art. DinDraithou (talk) 23:14, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I didn't create her original article, btw. DinDraithou (talk) 23:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I question whether this section is even worth keeping, as it seems to violate several principles of WP:LISTCRUFT. In particular:
• Many of the entries are not cited or themselves notable (they don't have their own articles). Non-notable people cannot really be "people noted to have engaged in fisting", especially if their mention is unsourced.
• The list may be essentially unlimited, if non-notable people can be included.
• So far, the list looks entirely female. If men are included, the list would appear to be endless. There are studios devoted to (or at least significant producers of) fisting films, and their list of relevant works would be longer than this article itself. List the individual performers, and, well, you see my point.
If we really want to go this route, I might suggest focusing on the notable studios or notable films, with proper citations. HalJor (talk) 00:16, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
The ones I added all have/had articles. Remove those who don't if you would like. I almost did but haven't investigated them. Giovanni I'm sure we can source easily enough, but my computer is messed up and I'm using someone else's. DinDraithou (talk) 00:35, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
My original title for the section was "In pornography" I think. DinDraithou (talk) 00:36, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the right ones. O-Pearl we should keep, since she is sourced, had an article, and might again when I have a chance to do the research. DinDraithou (talk) 01:01, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
Plus I'm not interested in men so I'm not going to add any. If any male performers have articles here then go ahead if that's your thing. DinDraithou (talk) 01:07, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

RFC: Image of male anal fisting[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of the discussion is to keep the image while seeking a better quality replacement, because Wikipedia is not censored, and editors who took time to give a reasoned explanation grounded in Wikipedia policies, guidelines and precedent mostly concluded that the image, despite being imperfect, is still encyclopedically useful to illustrate the other form of the article's topic (anal versus vaginal fisting), and perhaps to a lesser extent to illustrate the practice with both genders, and even as a partner vs. manual activity. Some editors would prefer a non-photographic illustration, but there were multiple objections to artsy, interpretive ones like the present image of the woman, versus medical-style diagrams; others would still prefer a photo. An argument for replacing the image does not equate to an argument for removing and not replacing it, especially when the expressed reasons to do so (when any were given) are contradicted by policy. Also, many !votes that appear at first glance to be in favor of removal, including some of the most vocal, amount in their details to quite unambiguous calls for replacement. There should be a different consensus discussion about proposed replacements. One comparable replacement was already suggested in the course of the debate, but lost in the shuffle. The idea that an article like this simply cannot be graphically illustrated at all is why we have a policy nicknamed WP:NOTCENSORED in the first place. Keeping the image satisfies WP:PERTINENCE and WP:PROFANE, also.

I'm doing a (non-admin) closure of this because the outcome is very clear from Wikipedia policy, despite emotions running high for some parties on both sides of the debate (and because I had time to kill, not wanting to be out and about on a night full of drunk drivers). I'm closing it a couple of days early, because the discussion entirely died out over a week ago, and even if it had not, the only way the outcome would be different is if policy radically changed suddenly and radically. Furthermore, an alternative image was proposed, making the debate borderline moot, and pointlessly delaying likely replacement of the image that no one really likes.

While the arguments for just removing the image are not generally unreasoned, and claims that removal=homophobia are unreasonable, the arguments in favor of inclusion are stronger and clearly reflect Wikipedia norms much better. I will go over every identifiable argument and explain how it factored. That the arguments to remove the image are all over the map, sometimes contradictory, and over the course of the debate sometimes abandoned is all highly significant. I've detailed all the clearly articulated debate points, even the trivial ones, and their applicability because I think this RFC may have good value as something to look back on for this article's progress and that of others when image flamewars pop up. PS: This closure is modeled on that of Talk:Gokkun#RFC on Image Inclusion, by Magog the Ogre (talk · contribs). Reading it, BTW, is actually of strong relevance to further discussion about using artistic interpretations instead of photographs especially in articles about sexuality topics.


Happy new year! — SMcCandish Talk⇒ ʕ(Õلō Contribs. 08:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)



The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Gloves image[edit]

Separate from the above discussion, does the image of the gloves in the gallery really add to the article? The caption is overly long, and should probably be moved to the body of the article - if you need that much text to show relevance to the article either it's not relevant or the article is missing something. If a picture is necessary, it's a low quality image and doesn't explain why a fisting glove is any different to a normal PVC glove (is it?) - if it isn't different, would something like File:PVC-Handschuh.jpg be better? Thryduulf (talk) 00:56, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

  • I think the entire gallery should go. A plethora of images for such a short article serves no purpose, and the link to Commons covers it. Drmies (talk) 01:14, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
  • I was going to say almost exactly the same thing but didn't have the chutzpah to do so in such a contentious discussion (not this sub-discussion, but generally).--Bbb23 (talk) 01:17, 4 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Agree. Not a source in sight. --JN466 03:39, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

OR

The so-called "Gallery of Fisting Hand Positions" is pure original research. No, seriously — it shouldn't be there. Carrite (talk) 02:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

  • Concurr, reliable expert secondary sources should be used for this kind of analysis and weighting. Fifelfoo (talk) 09:22, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Per these two (now combined sections), I've removed the gallery as it didn't add to the article (galleries are discouraged anyway, see WP:GALLERIES) and wasn't sourced. I have though moved the first image (the "duck beak" hand position) to an inline image as it does illustrate the first part of the "Techniques" section and so can't be classed as OR. That isn't to say that we should (or equally that we should not have it), but it needs to be discussed separately.Thryduulf (talk) 11:08, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Article or section split[edit]

Given that masturbation has been divided with two sub-headings under "male" and "female" techniques, I propose one of the following splits might appease some of the "social discomforts" people may have with regards this article being all squashed into a few poorly organised paragraphs:

  • a) Split into two distinct articles: Fisting and Anal fisting (currently redir. here).
  • b) Rewrite so that Vaginal fisting and Anal fisting and set apart under different sub-headings, due to the physical differences, then sub-heading under them for various things such as techniques, risks, LGBT practices, etc.

Given that vaginal is "purely" sexual, being a sexual organ, and anal is "speculatively" sexual, being part of the digestive tract, and probably not advised by many doctors due to the greater risk of rectal damage, it would be more responsible to divide the "forms" of fisting, and under those sub-headings further discuss pleasures/risks, and also allows for homosexual male practices to be better placed, rather than mixed in with female techniques that are "the norm" to most people, even those without homophobic sentiments, anal contact is "taboo", "unsafe" or just "yuck". Bear in mind homosexuality is a "minority group" and it is unreasonable to place a stronger gay-POV over heterosexual practices, when a more neutral method can be and should be applied to remove any and all form of discrimination, to gay and straight people. Though wiki does not censor, and does not make attempts to separate hetero/homosexual ideas too distinctly, we should bear in mind that anal intercourse, carries a stigma in many cultures and religions (sometimes leading to noose), so splitting means those people are not forced to read "all or nothing", and give them means to complain, or edit war – which is always a good aim of any "controversial" topic, keep the issues separate to minimise damage when trouble stirs. Also the higher degree of infection from anal "exploration" should be separately identified.

As an encyclopedia the article should not only be discussing the practices in terms of what it looks like, as seems to be the clear agenda from certain groups forcing the picture issue and arguing the toss. If people want to know what it feels like to have a hand shoved up their arse, they need only try it, no photo on Earth is going to provide that answer! The article needs to be more objective, and less porn-like. What is important is that someone develop a more neutral article, or two if necessary, from what exists, and make three or four sets of "fisting" context rather than one:

  • 1 Vaginal
    • 1.1 Lesbian practice (?)
  • 2 Anal
    • 2.1 Gay practice

And for those who disagree: If there's going to be a major LGBT WikiProject to focus on LGBT issues, then where's the focus if vaginal/anal are all crammed into one paragraph, causing more disagreements than are absolutely necessary?

If you still disagree.. you know where you can stick it! Face-wink.svg

Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 11:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I think we should focus on the image that I am asking the community to remove first and then they can focus on the article. As it is this article is moving away from my original request of removing the picture. --Camilo Sanchez (talk) 17:42, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
I don't see why we shouldn't discuss improvements to the article while that discussion is still ongoing - especially as the two are not incompatible. The picture question is one of image content, this is one primarily of structure. This proposed structure would work with either 1 or 2 images. Thryduulf (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
The !vote above is still open, the article is protected. Doesn't matter what else is discussed. The article is only accessible to admins at the moment, and although I don't trust their judgement in handling of the comments above either, that's just the way it is. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 21:40, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
(edit conflict)I think as a first step we should have one article with a lead giving a brief overview, and then two major sections - one for vaginal and one for anal (the order probably doesn't matter). We can split them into separate articles later if the amount of content justifies it.
I'm unsure on the gay and lesbian sections though. If there is content in reliable sources that treats e.g. lesbian vaginal fisting differently to lesbian anal fisting and straight fisting of either orifice, then yes if we can sectionalise them if the content volume makes it worthwhile. My gut feeling (sorry) is though that there is no more difference between homosexual and heterosexual fisting of the same hole than most other sex acts where it is physically possible for both orientations practise. I might be wrong (I've not looked) but I'd want to see some evidence of separate notability first. Thryduulf (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2011 (UTC)
Order matters; Anything anal is a simile of vaginal activity. Lesbian fisting may not necessarily be any different to hetero fisting physically, however, if someone can provide RS regarding its prevalence between gay women, possibly as a more intimate/practised activity than sex toys, it would give such a section credence. The physical act of fisting alone isn't what gives fisting notability, imo, rather the prevalence between f-m, m-m, f-m, and even the thought that gender reassigned male to female persons may practice either form. Again, it's not something we can really debate here, because everyone has their own views, often clouded by whether they accept either/both methods and further clouded by their sentiments towards sexuality. Only studies will be of any use, in giving this article unequivocal subject matter. I recommend avoiding debates from editors POV, or sexuality COI matters, and address the article with the subject in mind first, and leave all personal interests/concerns aside. I don't consider the practice worthy of Wiki myself, but even I can play Devil's advocate when I need to. Ma®©usBritish [Chat • RFF] 21:04, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Delete?[edit]

Why don't we just remove filth like this from the internet?! It's disgusting! ---68.103.24.102 (talk) 04:11, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

X mark.svg Not done Wikipedia is not censored. Sorry. -- MSTR (Chat Me!) 04:14, 18 January 2012 (UTC)

Image RfC 2.0[edit]

Which version of the article image set is better The current version as of 03:18, 15 February 2012 (UTC+8) or the version as of 18:00, 14 February 2012 (UTC+8)? Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 00:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

How is a 2nd vaginal Pic a substitute for an anal Pic? They are completely different. what good is two vaginal pics? CTJF83 07:02, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
The version as of 1800 has only ONE vaginal pic. The drawing is removed in that version. Please click before you judge thanks! Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 07:20, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Version without drawings - As nom Barts1a / What did I actually do right? / What did I do wrong this time? 23:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: The outcome of the recent RFC was to keep the image until an acceptable one, and that means an image that is acceptable by consensus, is found. Playing around and against that RFC outcome by removing/replacing images just so the image in question is no longer present is disruptive just like starting a new RFC as if the previous one doesn't exist or is outdated. Those who want the image replaced should spend more time outside WP searching for a feasible replacement instead of trying to force a change by editwarring or this bogus RFC that ignores the previous one.TMCk (talk) 07:37, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
  • photos: graphics is more abstract and solves no problems. Hope I'll never receive the third request on this topic. &mdas; Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 02:24, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Current Revision - less graphic, more educational/illustrative (as it has both anal and vaginal). The CGI "wiki-fisting" is also more inline with pornographic images on the rest of Wikipedia (which are all in a similar style, or line-drawn with a pen occasionally), and adds a level of professionalism/polish that is absent when using only live photographs: isn't there something in the MOS about it? St John Chrysostom view/my bias 12:50, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Can I pick none of the above? I actually don't mind the series of SVGs and line drawings for wiki sexual articles, if only because the photographs are generally of such low quality. The one under contention here is a particularly bad example. Bad composition, bad focus, crap lighting, model has ingrown hairs galore from his shaving - it is not a credit to this encyclopedia. Yes yes wiki is not censored and neither should it be, but that doesn't mean we should go out of our way to bait the god botherers and homophobes, fun though it is (vaguely related side note: the only other wiki presently using the anal fisting photo is the Persian language Wikipedia - lol) -Yeti Hunter (talk) 13:00, 20 March 2012 (UTC)
  • The current version is better than the 14 February version as per TMCk above, but what is really needed is better photos for both anal and vaginal fisting. What we have now isn't good, but it's the best we can do for now. Thryduulf (talk) 01:00, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
If they're that bad (and they are), then they shouldn't be used at all. You wouldn't put an overexposed, blurry picture of a diseased, mangy, three-legged dog with his tail cropped out of the frame as the picture for some article on an obscure breed of dog, even if none other were available. --Yeti Hunter (talk) 09:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
Actually we would if there was consensus that having the picture added encylopaedically to the article. In this case, the first RfC explicitly concluded that having the current pictures does add value to the article and that they should be used until something better is available. Thryduulf (talk) 12:29, 22 March 2012 (UTC)

Image double standard[edit]

Why is it that the image of a woman engaging in fisting is an illustration, and the male image is a photo? Could this be a double standard? Should we introduce an illustration to replace the photo for the male, if only for the sake of consistency, and to eliminate any double standards? Cr@$h3d@t@t@1k t0 m3 09:27, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

This is not double standard they are simply the best pictures of each act currently available and having one as a photo is greatly illustrative of the topic. There are more pictures at the commons and you may seek further graphics depicting fisting to meet your educational needs there.LuciferWildCat (talk) 23:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
Why did you indent so much? And I don't have any issue with the current images other than one is a drawing and the other is a photo, which in my view, at first glance at least appears to be a double standard. I really don't want to scour the commons to find images of fisting though.... Eww. I just was wondering when I found this page to beginning. Cr@$h3d@t@t@1k t0 m3 22:57, 20 June 2012 (UTC)
I was wondering why there are only photos of women. Seems like men are squeamish. 69.125.134.86 (talk) 01:38, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

What about this?[edit]

Someone should mention shoulder-deep anal fisting and all the info about it.72.82.180.111 (talk) 23:28, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

History of anal and vaginal fisting?[edit]

There should be a section in the article about the history of anal and vaginal fisting.