Talk:Five Star Movement

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Translation[edit]

Shouldn't the proper translation be "Five stars movement"? "Stelle" is plural. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.63.166.124 (talk) 15:19, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I agree --Twilight 19:49, 24 October 2012 (UTC)
No, that would not be proper English. Examples? "Five-star hotel", "three-way race", "four-night stay", etc. --Checco (talk) 08:32, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
So, why not Five-Star Movement, with the hyphen? --LNCSRG (talk) 16:15, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
Both versions are correct, but I think that, stylistically speaking, it's better not to have the hyphen. --Checco (talk) 10:41, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
Suggestion of a Third alternative, which is proper English: Five star's movement.--Xact (talk) 23:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
This doesn't really work: "Five star's movement" literally means "Five movement of the star" or "movement of the five stars". Both are awkward and not really good translations of the original Italian. Checco is right that "Five Star movement" is by far the best English phrasing, and the hyphen is unnecessary. Furthermore, English news sources like the BBC and the Economist already use "Five Star Movement" nearly exclusively.SnarkyShark (talk) 06:08, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
I have rollbacked Xact's move and returned the article to its original and proper title, Five Star Movement. That is the most correct translation and, in fact, as observed by SnarkyShark, most English news sources use it. --Checco (talk) 14:29, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Bias article.[edit]

The article is well written but is missing the point - the approach is very much biased and not corresponding to the reality. The events and traits described by the article are real, but the light and negative emphasis on some of its feature are wrong. It is impossible to describe or even analyze this phenomenon with argument of conventional rhetoric - it requires a paradigm shift to be fully understood. Although a well written article must be critical and challenging - it misses the important feature that characterize the movement (not political party), rather it considers relatively important feature in order to give a bad and biased impression of it. It must be revised. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.18.227.95 (talk) 19:23, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

I am concerned that the article is suppose to be describing a new political movement - but does not explain the meaning or the reasons for the movemnet as expressed by the stars. I would love for some one who understands this movement to add their sourced perspective.--Eric James Wolf (talk) 19:23, 26 February 2013 (UTC)

From George Friedman's free report from Stratfor (5 March 2013) "Two things are of interest about this movement. First, one of its central pillars is the call for defaulting on a part of Italy's debt as the lesser of evils. The second is that Italy, with 11.2 percent unemployment, is far from the worst case of unemployment in the European Union. Nevertheless, Italy is breeding radical parties deeply opposed to the austerity policies currently in place."Halconen (talk) 23:58, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Introduction[edit]

In the introduction is stated that M5S is Eurosceptic. But their programme doesn't mention anything versus Euro http://www.beppegrillo.it/iniziative/movimentocinquestelle/Programma-Movimento-5-Stelle.pdf

So the characterization "Eurosceptic" in the introduction isn't justified — Preceding unsigned comment added by For the leg (talkcontribs) 14:48, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Characterization of the movement[edit]

Someone is trying to delete the section "Manifesto" and is trying to empathiz e the fact that M5S is euro sceptic. This isn't the real objective of M5S indeed in the programme doesn't mention anything versus Euro — Preceding unsigned comment added by For the leg (talkcontribs) 14:39, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

1) You will get nothing from deleting/reverting referenced information (just a ban maybe). If you think what's in the article is wrong, challenge the sources, provide sources for your opinion, and/or discuss here without any further reverts. Political movements usually do not put everything about them in their programs; morevover, I think inherently the manifesto is not a neutral source. 2) Please bear in mind that by reverting you destroy not only the sentence you seem to be interested in. 3) Direct links (i.e. to the manifest) are not accceptable in the body of an article 3) WikiHannibal (talk) 23:22, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Hi, thanks for your kind reply. The best source for Five Star Movement not being Eurosceptic is the italian Wiki http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoVimento_5_Stelle (if you don't know italian please use automatic translation ). Also the Five Star Movement objectives are all stated in their manifesto (programme) where there aren't any actions versus Euro (So you really can't say that Five Star Movement is euroscepticism or at least you can't say this in the first introduction). Moreover the word "populist" is a derogatory adjective given by political opponents of the party, and doesn't deserve to be in this wiki. For the leg (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I am going to revert the change to reflect the more accurate italian wiki http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/MoVimento_5_Stelle to remove euroscepticism For the leg (talk) 12:14, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
"Populism" is an established term in political science to denote a certain political ideology or style. It is not necessarily derogatory. Several independent sources describe the movement as populist, not only its political adversaries. Wikipedia articles should always be based on reliable sources (principle of verifiability). Other wikis - like the Italian one - are no reliable sources, because they may be edited by anyone and are not fact-checked. The movement's manifesto is not a reliable source either, because it is partisan rather than independent and neutral. We have to follow the description of the movement by independent observers. And they often label it as populist, anti-establishment and eurosceptic, as you can see from the cited sources. --RJFF (talk) 00:29, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
populism is considered derogatory by the movement because adovating e democracy doesn t mean populist. http://m.spiegel.de/international/europe/a-833358.html#spRedirectedFrom=www read this indipendent source for more information about the movement. 93.44.60.19 (talk) 00:43, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
Well, the source you cite does use the term 'populism' as well. Even in the head line. Whether the movement itself likes the term or not is irrelevant, if independent sources think it is appropriate to use it. The article is not meant to please the movement or its supporters or to reflect their point of view, but to inform in a neutral way. And neutral sources say that the movement is populist, not in order to disqualify or disparage it, but simply in order to characterize their political style. --RJFF (talk) 01:12, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

Some of these points[edit]

It is unclear which (if any) listed points of the manifesto were "copied" by other parties. The provided references do not name any of them, and only some similarities can perhaps be deduced from them - and that is not for editors to do. Other issues might be added if need be, or the sentence in question removed (again). Please provide references to articles about the points that were copied. Here we can also discuss the reliability of the sources and notability of the information that something was copied. For the leg (talk), even though your last edit seems to aim in the right direction, please stop making any disruptive edits, with which the history of this article already abounds. WikiHannibal (talk) 22:16, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Should I add more references? A simple google searches lists hundreds of various references. (Google search: https://www.google.it/search?q=partiti+copiano+programma+movimento+5+stelle&hl=it). A point over the others: PDL said that their MP will lower their salary and MP can be elegible only for two mandates. I didn't specify the points neither the parties that copied to don't open a new flame war For the leg (talk) 23:51, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
Not more, but more to the point, as mentioned below by AL458. The fact that in this article there are more references to certain sentences is the result of the controversies discussed here, not a common (or needed) thing. I see that your sole concern at the English and Italian wikipedia is this movement. Please have a look at guidelines to editing again. I removed the template, so please do not be tempted to re-insert that sentence without proper references. WikiHannibal (talk) 22:08, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Providing a decent demonstration that one party copied part of the program from another party is a complex operation, requiring an extensive dissertation on the chronology of the ideas and the publication of the programs themselves. Citing a couple of blogs is not enough for a serious encyclopedia. That part cannot be kept in this voice like it is, otherwise it would be mere propaganda. --AL458 (talk) 12:56, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

How to deal with translating the manifesto[edit]

The M5S has now produced an English version of its manifesto/programme (at http://www.movimentocinquestelle.eu/documenti/programma-en.pdf). We're now using the English version as our source for the manifesto, but it's a pretty poor translation from the original Italian -- it looks almost exactly like what you get when you run the original through Google Translate. I'm not sure about what to do in this situation; should we use the rather poor official translations or the better ones we already have? For example, we have "Ineligibility of convicted criminals for public office" while the official English version says "Ineligibility to public office for citizens convicted". SnarkyShark (talk) 03:12, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Five Star's Movement is not a party[edit]

The article appears to me to be biased precisely because the article expresses so overtly that the Five Star's Movement is a party. Thus the article clearly stands in opposition to what the movement itself say what it is. Thus the text is its truthtentativety in opposition to the Movement's claim. Isn't this the Occupy Movement in Italy occypying representative democracy with 25 % direct democracy? Similar to the the M15 Movement in Spain? At best this article is not much more than an attempt at reducing the Italian phenomenon to something that the habit-longing conditioned mind is able to grasp. --Xact (talk) 00:14, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure what word we can use other than party. The Occupy Movement is a poor equivalent; it never took part in American elections, has no leader and lacks a stated agenda. True, the M5S wants to remake Italian society -- just like Occupy wants to remake American society -- but all Occupy ever did was sit in squares and protest. On the other hand, the M5S, while it certainly isn't a mature party like the PD or the PDL, just came in third in a general election and has a single leader and a reasonably comprehensive list of demands and goals. As Wikipedia itself puts it, "A political party is a political organization that typically seeks to influence government policy, usually by nominating candidates with aligned political views and trying to seat them in political office". This is exactly what the M5S does, and it sets it apart from both Occupy and Spain's 15M. SnarkyShark (talk) 06:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)
The M5S has not a party structure - it is not funded with public money, it has not a political party status and is not hierarchically structured. It is pretty much horizontal rather than a vertical structure like traditional parties. It relies on the web to gather information and intelligence on various topics, and it is based on a territorial organization of citizens through the MeetUp platform. All the Cities (small - medium - large) have a MeetUp that works and applies the strategy of the movement on the territory. Normal citizens with no interest in politics will govern his own territory without interests of traditional political nature, that in Italy like everywhere in the west, are source of corruption and misuse of the state apparatus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.55.91.38 (talk) 21:13, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
The distinction many Italians (especially journalists and politicians) do between "party" and "movement" is totally misguided, misleading and unfounded from a political scientist's point of view. A group does not need a party structure to be a party: there are several examples of parliamentary-only parties in history. But this is not the case of the M5S, which has a structure and fields canidated for public office. "A political party is a political organization that typically seeks to influence government policy, usually by nominating candidates with aligned political views and trying to seat them in political office": this definition definitely applies to M5S, a party among parties. Members and supporters of M5S (and those of Lega Nord and the PdL, whose leaders also pretend that theirs are movements) can say what they want, but thier "movement" is emintently and evidently a party. --Checco (talk) 10:01, 4 April 2013 (UTC)

Bad English[edit]

Be aware, guys, the article is written in shitty English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.173.162.144 (talk) 12:52, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

There's a tag at the top of the page, indeed. Would you like to contribute? --Checco (talk) 15:09, 26 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm happy to try. Could you explain some of the sentences? In particular, I have no clue what "as well as Italian citizens would disembark in life Italian civil from bad policy" is supposed to mean. Marnanel (talk) 23:55, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea. That's why I added the tag. My suggestion is that the article needs a complete rewrite and clean-up, consistently with the other articles about Italian parties. It is is also too long and detailed for a party with just five years of activity. --Checco (talk) 09:02, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
The noun sbarco ("landing") and the verb sbarcare ("disembark", in English) are the words you would use in Italian to refer to the D-Day (lo Sbarco in Normandia). I think he's trying to say that just like the Allies landed in Normandy (D-Day) and from there they freed Europe, the M5S will metaphorically "land" on the "shores" of Italy's civil society and will then proceed to free the country of bad politicians. Writing this in the entry would represent of course outright POV and original research. 93.150.144.110 (talk) 15:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Position of M5S in the political spectrum[edit]

Hi. Yesterday M5S activists voted to be part of EFD, which is a political group in the European Parliament to the right of the Conservatives. Consequently I added the word "extreme right-wing" party to the definition of this party based on the results of their vote. If I am member of a group that also sees the participation of UKIP and has seen contributions from Italy's Northern League I am not centre or left, am I? These words have been reverted and I cannot see the rationale of this as "right-wing" is what EFD MEP are. If you do not like it one could drop "extreme", but honestly I do not think they would like being called "centre", let alone "left". 93.150.144.110 (talk) 09:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

EP groups are loose coalitions of national parties. Whatever their current or future group affiliation, I strongly disgagree on describing either the M5S or LN as right-wing parties, let alone extreme right-wing ones. --Checco (talk) 13:53, 20 June 2014 (UTC)