Talk:Flags of the Confederate States of America

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There is no support or references given here by whoever made these comments (probably a yankee) about the validity of the Confederate Flag, especially the one commonly accepted by the true Confederates and their descendants. Most of these Flags were never seen by or displayed by true Confederates, except the latter, and we certainly were not on ships. Its amazing how many ship flags were found in Southerners attics... -- 12.36.152.153 (moved from article page to here by John Owens (talk) 03:22, 2004 Jul 9 (UTC)

Also, that "bonnie blue" flag didn't symbolize The Confederacy as a whole, but the independent states before they united. The logic was that if 20 or so stars symbolized 20 or so states united, then one star symbolized one star staning alone.

I'm from Georgia and I've never heard of that last flag being used as a naval flag. I have no idea why someone would think that...

What was originally designed The Naval Jack was used at times on land such as by the army of Tennessee. There were in fact many local/regiment battle flags in addition to the general square saltire version. The popularity of the saltire flag being used almost exclusively by veteren groups started as far back as the 1880s in preference to what were seen as either "political" or local flags. Almost inevitably to be consistent with most other flags, there was a preference established for a rectangular version and it is no wonder that more flags of this type are now found in attics. However, to suggest the wide use of the flag civicly and among land based forces at the time of the civil war is somewhat anachronistic and it remains historically correct to refer to it as a naval jack. Dainamo 11:46, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

South Carolina flag[edit]

Just to explain, I cut South Carolina from the controversy section because the issue with SC wasn't that the state flag was changed during the 1960s but that the government started flying the Confederate banner alongside the U.S. national and SC state flags above the statehouse. The NAACP (and other) boycott persuaded the state to move the flag from above the statehouse; the Palmetto banner was not redesigned in 2000.

The removed text in question:

South Carolina incorporated the Confederate Battle Flag into the state flag in 1962. Due to a boycott by the NAACP and related organizations, the state legislature chose to redesign the flag in 2000.

Carter 16:42, 4 Nov 2004 (UTC)


That is strange! Everything I read seriously implied (or outright stated) that the SC flag had a Confederate emblem. This must be a fairly widespread misconception. Either that, or the media is just trying to create more controversy than the issue merits. Here is an article from 7 Nov 2004: Kentucky Lexington-Herald Leader A quote from the article: "The NCAA does not allow schools in states that have Confederate symbols on their flags -- only Mississippi and South Carolina -- to host events..." I was fooled! Odd indeed. --L.D. Bear 01:39, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I think I can explain this. In recent years, some entities have created a flag that blends the CSA Naval Jack and the SC/NC flags. See here for a picture: [1] and [2]. These flags are unofficial and has no connection with the NC/SC Governments. For more, see FOTW. If you really want one, [3] has plenty of products with the flags on them. - Hoshie/Crat 05:38, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)


I think that it should still be in the section. Something along the lines of stating how, although the design is not represented in the official state flag, the Confederate Flag is often displayed alongside the state flag.--206.21.168.100 (talk) 21:50, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Bonnie Blue Flag[edit]

I think the "Bonnie Blue Flag" should be transfered from this page to its own separate page. Strictly speaking, it is not a "Confederate Flag". Unlike the other flags on this page, it was never officially used to represent the CSA. A detailed discussion of this flag, and its use as the flag of the Republic of West Florida would be better located on a different page. --JW1805 03:10, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

  • An expanded article on this flag is now at Bonnie Blue Flag.
  • We have a minor rvt war going on about this, I see. We should discuss it here on the talk page. I don't see any reason why this page should contain so much duplicated information that is already at the Bonnie Blue Flag article. This page should stick to flags that were unique to the Confederacy. --JW1805 17:25, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Although not an official flag, it was widely used to represent the confederacy prior to the adoption of the official flags. It was a well known Southern symbol for rebellion and discontent in West Florida and later Texas. It is mentioned in the article, and was influential to civil war songs, literature, and post civil war fiction (Bonnie Blue Butler). It clearly belongs in the category of "Other Flags". 155.84.57.253 17:31, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I don't think it ever really was used to represent "the Confederacy" as a whole. As you say, certainly not in any official way. It was mainly used before the Confederacy was even created, in the early months of 1861. Its usage as a Southern symbol in West Florida, and influence on Texas and California also has nothing to do with the Confederacy. Since its usage predates the Civil War, and it has its own article, I don't see any need to duplicate all that info on this page. The current mention with a link should be enough. --JW1805 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm no expert on this, but what I read at GA flag indicates that it was more of a state flag showing their intention to seceede. Bubba73 (talk) 18:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
That's interesting. We should add a link to that site to this page. --JW1805 20:28, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
    • Even in Canada, we know that the Bonnie Blue Flag was important to the secessionist movement and the early days of the Confederacy. A picture of it really should be included. WolframSiever 18:39, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
    • But the name of the article isn't "Flags used by sucessionists", or "Flags used in the South", it is "Flags of the Confederate States of America". And this just isn't one. --JW1805 18:48, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

License plates[edit]

"In North Carolina, vehicle owners can request a license plate from the state featuring the Sons of Confederate Veterans logo, which incorporates a Confederate Battle Flag." - Also in Virginia [4]-LtNOWIS 00:51, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Sons of Confederate Veterans Tags[edit]

I know that they are available in Tennessee also, as I have one on my truck and so does my uncle.

Why Was the Image of the 3rd National Flag Reverted?[edit]

In October I replaced the image of the 3rd national flag with one that had the dimensions as laid out in the 1865 flag law. Sometime in the past week this image was reverted to the earlier image which has the wrong dimensions. Why was this done? Nicholas F 01:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)


Request Verification[edit]

I would like some information of affirm the following statement made in the article;

Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery not knowing that Abraham Lincoln, prior to secession, offered the Southern States a 13th Amendment [Congress shall make no laws affecting the instituition of (slavery)...thereby making it permanent]

I'm not sure on this and I think there should be some verification to this.

Likewise. It was recently re-added in this form:
  • To many in the US South it is simply a symbol of their heritage and pride in their ancestors who held out during years of war under terrible odds and sacrifice. Others see it as a symbol of the institution of slavery not knowing that Abraham Lincoln, prior to secession, offered the Southern States a 13th Amendment [Congress shall make no laws affecting the instituition of (slavery)...thereby making it permanent], or of the Jim Crow laws established by the US Congress enforcing racial segregation in the Southern States for almost a century later.
We don't know what "many" think, nor do we know what they don't know. -Will Beback 01:31, 12 February 2006 (UTC)
  • That may be talking about the Corwin amendment. But the whole "not knowning... making it permanent" section is completely unnecessary and irrelevant to the topic. --JW1805 (Talk) 00:38, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Reflecting the battle flag's controversial perceptions[edit]

I've tried twice now to insert the following block of text under the "Displaying the Flag/Controversy" section. It has been twice removed.

I can't find the Clarion Ledger hit any longer, so have removed that reference. The Cooper/Knotts paper is located at http://paws.wcu.edu/ccooper/beyonddixie.pdf.

To continue to deny that a growing number of African-Americans find the flag offensive, or to deny that it was-- and continues to be-- used as a symbol of white segregation-- fairly or not-- is to deny current history, and not in keeping with the open and accurate philosophy of Wikipedia.

I ask that this text be reinserted in the "Displaying the Flag/Controversy" section.

"More recent studies, however, show changing attitudes toward the Confederate battle flag, particularly among blacks-- perhaps due to greater awareness of the issue stemming from legislative battles regarding the flag's official use in Georgia, Mississippi, and South Carolina. In 2005, two Western Carolina University researchers found that 74% of U.S. African-Americans favored removal of the flag from the South Carolina Capitol building [Cooper & Knotts, 2005]. As battle lines over the use of the flag have (again) hardened, the NAACP and many civil rights groups have attacked the flag. The NAACP maintains an official boycott of South Carolina, citing its continued use of the battle flag on its Statehouse grounds."

Use of Flags by K.K.K. Historically Not Limited to C.S.A. Flag[edit]

I noticed the comments of Scott regarding the Klan's use of the Stars and Stripes. Those interested should view the following:

http://www.genealogyimagesofhistory.com/images2/William%20Joseph%20Simmons.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Stone Mountain, GA, circa 1921

http://www.biologydaily.com/biology/upload/thumb/3/3c/300px-Kkklan.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, 1922 (30,000 members from Chicago and northern Illinois present).

http://www.agpix.com/catalog/AGPix_curtteich/large/AGPix_curtteich_0014_Lg.jpg Ku Klux Klan, Mansfield, Ohio, early 1920s

http://www.ourbaytown.com/images1/klan.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Goose Creek, Texas, circa 1921-23

http://hip.cgu.edu/liss/epstein/KKK2.jpg Ku Klux Klan meeting (women’s auxiliary), New Castle, Indiana, 1923

http://www.liu.edu/cwis/CWP/library/african/west/kkk.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1923

http://www.historyonthenet.com/Slave_Trade/images/kkk.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally (place unknown, circa pre-1920s)

http://www.law.du.edu/jenkins/images/kkk.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Boulder, Colorado, 1925

http://www.ethnociel.qc.ca/Images%20ethnociel/kkk.gif Ku Klux Klan Rally, Washington, DC, 1925.

http://static.flickr.com/13/18096460_7f0c71bd16.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Montiplier, Vermont, 1927

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Image:Kkk1928.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Washington, DC, 1928.

http://collections.ic.gc.ca/jhs/Images/KKKhouse.jpg (NOTE THE UNION JACK!) Ku Klux Klan meeting, Vancouver, B.C. Oct. 30th, 1935.

http://www.historyworksohio.org/images/thumbnails/AL02904.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Ohio (circa pre-1945)

http://images.indianahistory.org/cgi-bin/thumbnail.exe?CISOROOT=/V0002&CISOPTR=3 Ku Klux Klan meeting, Godfrey Klan No. 93, Hartford City, Indiana (circa pre-1945)

http://www.atlantahighered.org/civilrights/gallery/02.jpg Ku Klux Klan Rally, Atlanta, GA (circa 1940-1946)

and see:

http://www.pointsouth.com/csanet/kkk.htm very large collection

http://www.rulen.com/kkk/ another large collection

and see also:

http://media.bestprices.com/content/isbn/69/1567666469.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0822307723.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0195098366.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

http://metascholar.org/MOSC/images/essays/KuKluxKismetcoverl.gif

04:22; 2 September 2006; Fix Bayonets!

SCV protest of use of Confederate Flag by hate groups[edit]

As I recall, documentation* for the above had been provided (by another Wikipedian) as requested on at least two prior occasions. In any event, the SPLC verifies the above, and as we all know, the SPLC is certainly not a defender of the SCV -- to the contrary, the SPLC is perhaps the chief antagonist against the SCV. *SPLC article verifying the above See also *York Daily Record article verifying the above.
--Fix Bayonets! 12:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Not suitable for the article since I have no documentation, but I was adjutant of the Sterling Price Camp in St Louis when we did the same thing -- and you are exactly right on the SPLC. 138.162.128.55 (talk) 18:33, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

POV[edit]

This article is rank with POV content and in need of a major overhaul IMhO. - Plasticbadge 06:24, 8 October 2006 (UTC)


Origin[edit]

Is there any additional information regarding the creation of the saltire style Confederate Battle Flag? Possibilities for the inspiration behind the saltire design include the Flag of Scotland, the Irish Saint Patrick's Flag, and the Spanish Cross of Burgundy Flag. Thanks! --Dulcimerist 00:16, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

There's an in-depth description of its creation, intial rejection and ultimate success, and factors in the design and so on, in the book: Coski, John M. "The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem". 2005. Unfortunately I had it checked out of the library and no longer have it at hand. Good source for this info though. William Porcher Miles was the main guy behind the design, if I recall correctly. I can't quite remember, but I think his initial design had the cross upright rather than diagonal. Pfly 01:00, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
It may have initially been designed to go upright rather than diagonal? Grab that book again, as that information would be awesome in this article! That would be something that most people wouldn't know... --Dulcimerist 05:07, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
Well you inspired me to do just that! I checked the book out from the library today and edited some pages with info from it. It seems the nitty-gritty details about the flag's origin are a bit more complex than can be described briefly. I will try to return and improve the texts I entered on various pages. Was in a bit of a hurry and not writing as well as I could. Plus I am fairly ignorant of heraldry and flag-terminology. But, thanks for the inspiration. This Coski book on the Confederate flag seems quite well researched, with footnotes citing seemingly obscure primary sources like the archived letters of Civil War people stored in government archives. Perhaps the best researched book on the confederate flag. The bulk of the book is on the flag's changing meaning and use since the Civil War, with only the first chapter or two on the flag's creation and use back in the day. Interesting book. Pfly 08:17, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Thanks! I look forward to the cleaning up of the entry here and there, and might work on it a bit when I've got time. Heraldry is quite fun, although I'm only familiar with heraldic crosses of nearly 200 designs. (I'm a nerd who specializes.) --Dulcimerist 09:22, 26 October 2006 (UTC)

14 Stars?!?[edit]

Why does the new image of the Stars and Bars have 14 stars? This is certainly a mistake. The Flags of the World site claims that the most common version (41% of those surviving) have 11 stars. This is the version that should be illustrated. Nicholas F 00:15, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for reducing the number of stars to 13, but I still believe it would be better to illustrate either the first version (7 stars) or the most common version (11 stars) rather than the extremely rare 13 star version. Also, looking a photos of surviving versions as well as contemporary prints, the diameter of the circle is too large in relation to the canton. And if I may be permitted one additional nit to pick on, for consistency it would be better if the shades matched those of the 2nd and 3rd national flags illustrated on the page. Nicholas F 01:13, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

13 Stars?!?[edit]

I think something is messed up in the article. It says that the 13 stars on the battle flag represent the 11 states with Kentucky and Missouri. It links to a rather dubious looking site confirming this. I was always told that the 13 stars represented the original 13 colonies -- as the confederates saw themselves as the "real" successors to the founding fathers. If the bit about Kentucky and Missouri were true, than why wouldn't the flag also incorporate Maryland or Delaware for a total of 15 stars -- as they were also "occupied". I really think this section in the article needs better documentation.

The Coski book has several statements about star representing states of the Confederacy, with the number reaching 13 when the secessionist factions of Missouri and Kentucky joined in late 1861. Maryland and Delaware never "joined" in this sense, although one of the earliest designs of what became the battle flag had 15 stars. I'll add the ref and, if the website referenced is really dubious, the Coski ref can replace it.. unfortunately references to books are not quite as easy to check as websites, but on the other hand, books tend to stick around longer than websites. :) If I have the time I'll try to clean up the references in general. Pfly 04:22, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Blood-Stained or Blood-Dipped Banner?[edit]

The text for the 3rd National Flag states "It was sometimes called the blood-stained or blood-dipped banner." I believe this to be an anachronism. Can anyone provide a citation for this? The flag was adopted on March 4, 1865. Lee surrendered on April 9 of the same year. Very few people would have even seen the flag in that month's time, making very unlikelty for it to have received a popular nickname. Further, I doubt that the Confederates would have referred to their national flag with the pejorative "blood-stained". These names are more likely to be modern creations. Nicholas F 01:26, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Enemy of the United States[edit]

I thought the United States won the civil war agains the Confederacy. Why would any American consider flying flags of a defeated enemy? --Kvuo 04:48, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Kvuo, I think that there are many reasons for flying the Confederate Battle flag (please make sure you know the difference, or knowledgable people in the South will rip you a new one). Admittedly, some are racist and fly it to intimidate anyone who disagrees with them. They use it as a symbol by which to rally around and a notion that those were the "good old days." Others fly it because they are proud to be from the South. Not all of the ideals that the Confederacy stood for were bad, the foremost being states rights, so some people view their pride in the good things that it stands for (it must also be taken into account that the US flag also flew over slave states, but no reasonable person protests those who use it. The reason is that the US changed. IMHO so did the South. We do not believe is slavery nor do we believe it should be reinstated. Lumping us with those who are racists can be tenuous at best.). BQZip01 talk 05:17, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Stop This Maddness! Nobody Cares Anymore![edit]

I think people should let go of the past and look foward to the future. The slaves are free, the war has been over for a century. What more does this country needs right now. We banned the Swastika for a good reason and that was six decades ago when it came in being.

User:Harbingeur —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.94.178.228 (talk) 16:20, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Those who forget the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat the same mistakes.Sf46 (talk) 00:09, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Ummm... if you're talking about the United States of America, the swastika is not banned, just unpopular. Secondly, even the most odious part of CSA culture, slavery, does not come even close to the mass murders and tortures of the Third Reich. All the other principles of the Confederacy (states' rights, etc.) are issues that reasonable and reputable people can disagree on.RoastDack (talk) 15:38, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Georgia Flag[edit]

The Georgia flag still incorporates a design extremely similar to the Stars and Bars.

Comparison:

CSA FLAG 4.3.1861-21.5.1861.svg
Flag of Georgia (U.S. state).svg

BQZip01 talk 16:13, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Spurrier[edit]

I removed the last line about Steve Spurrier and the SC flag issue. In the article cited, he did not say that the flag hurt his recruiting of players. In fact, he specifically said (though not in the cited article) that it did NOT have an effect.Reeeems 17:36, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Georgiaflags.jpg[edit]

Nuvola apps important.svg

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"most Southerners were descendants of the Ulster migrations"[edit]

An interesting claim - citation / reference on this? --mgaved 08:46, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Confederate Battle Flag should have its own article[edit]

Seems to me the controversy over it and its unique history both during and well after the Civil War make it noteworthy enough, and unique enough from general flags of the Confederacy, to warrant its own article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.60.106.28 (talk) 23:36, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Superfluous Edit[edit]

Since it is established in previous content of the article that the battle flag is known to be displayed at many locations by many groups with varying meanings and reasons attributed to its being displayed, it is unreasonable to remove text that establishes a connection with extremist or hate groups such as the Ku Klux Klan.KDACAPELLA 23:02, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Labeling any edit as "superfluous" is a bit much IMHO. The KKK certainly uses it, but is only one of several groups that use it. I'm trying not to use language that seems to exclude other groups. See what I put in just a few moments ago. "Extremist" is inaccurate because it includes groups like the ALF and ELF, which don't use the symbol. — BQZip01 — talk 00:26, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Naval jack or ensign?[edit]

No proper command of English. When you say "jack", are you referring to the bow secondary flag (the "jack") or to the main poop flag (that is, what the British call "ensign")? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.142.175.22 (talk) 11:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know whether the 1863 naval ensign used the dark blue saltire of the battle flag or the light blue of the naval jack? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.160.250.253 (talk) 14:30, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

South Carolina Sovereignty Flag[edit]

Is it true that the "Southern Cross" (the Confederate most widespread battle flag) was based on the so-called South Caroline Sovereignty Flag, flown by Seccessionists in 1860?

It doesn't appear to be a very big stretch from the photo shown here. Sf46 (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Considering those "photos" are made in Paint, I'm going to err on the side of caution on this. Maybe someone should email the Museum of the Confederacy; after all, they DO have the largest collection of Confederate flags (and have a rather large picture book about the collection). SiberioS (talk) 04:39, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
According to the Coski book it is true. I hadn't seen a picture of the flag though. But it looks pretty much like what Coski describes. Pfly (talk) 04:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

The Battle Flag in Eastern Europe and Berlin[edit]

I have read in various places that the battle flag was flown in various parts of eastern Europe when the Soviets withdrew. Does anyone know where I can find confirmed sources of that? Perhaps images or video. ThorsMitersaw —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.231.215.4 (talk) 18:08, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't know about that but it's also supposedly been used in Africa by black Africans who were revolting against corrupt post-colonial governments. Sf46 (talk) 17:50, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
I doubt both. After all, wouldn't you use your own national flag? And most African secessionist and rebel groups use their own flags (of which there is a wide variety of). The only websites that mention such a claim are neo-confederate websites, and they don't seem to show any photos or video either SiberioS (talk) 01:03, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Here's a picture of the Battle Flag in Berlin. [5]

The Forgotten Confederate Flags (State Flags)[edit]

Hey Y'ALL forgot to mention the other Confederate Flags, you know state flags like the Virginia Flag and North Carolina Flag? They're both Confederate Flags and were used as Confederate Battle Flags. When the Southern States began joining the Confederacy their love for more State Sovereignty led them to create official State Flags. Virginia did not adopt an official flag until after it had seceded from the Union in 1861. The Flag of the Commonwealth was adopted on April 30, 1861 almost two weeks after Virginia voted, on April 17, 1861, to repeal its 1788 ratification of the Constitution of the United States.

The Maryland state flag features the red and white Botany cross; a specific design which was used by Maryland Confederate units and was later incorporated into the current flag. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.157.119.165 (talk) 06:36, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

THE VIRGINIA FLAG AND OTHERS ARE CONFEDERATE FLAGS TOO!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.82.9.105 (talk) 23:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The Maryland (and Howard County Maryland) flags were both flown over southern units in battle. Fact: Marylanders wearing red and white in 1861-1865 would be jailed without trial by the occupying yankees. I proudly fly a Maryland flag and openly explain its TRUE meaning. In fact I chuckle when the most liberal school preaches hate for their own heritage yet fly 2 yes thats 2 rebel flags --MarylandSonOfTheSouth (talk) 18:31, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

Some sections biased[edit]

Generally a good article. I was, however, rather put off by the Georgia post-war flag section. The previous author linked the entire phrase "a large part of Georgia's electorate" to the article "Racists". Wow. That's probably one of the most biased, POV, and ridiculous links I've ever come across.

Anyway, I removed the link, but kept the sentence (since it did, in fact, upset quite a few Georgians). If anyone disagrees, please reply. I have a lot to offer on that particular point. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Theboondocksaint (talkcontribs) 04:47, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Saltire vs St Andrew's cross[edit]

The section on the Battle Flag presently contains the following:

Although Miles described his flag as a heraldic saltire, it had been thought to be erroneously described since the latter part of the 19th century as a cross, specifically a Saint Andrew's Cross. [...] Specifically, the St. Andrew's Cross is a white saltire on a blue field, as in the national flag of Scotland. The St. Patrick's Cross, as in the state flag of Alabama, is a red saltire on a white field. The Army of Northern Virginia battle flag has a blue saltire on a red field and is, therefore, neither the St. Andrew's nor the St. Patrick's Cross but a saltire as in the proposed but unadopted Second National flag.

All this is incorrect as a saltire and a St Andrew's cross are exactly the same thing and can refer to a cross of any tincture, not just the argent on azure of the Flag of Scotland. Opera hat (talk) 16:06, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I added the first part about Miles insisting that it was a "heraldic saltire" and not a cross, and that nevertheless it soon came to be called a Saint Andrew's Cross anyway. The rest, with mentions of Scotland, Alabama, etc, sounds rather like original research to me, perhaps a citation needed? Pfly (talk) 18:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Category[edit]

I'm on the fence about adding this article to Category:Military flags of the United States. Not being part of the United States of America, it wouldn't be really all that appropriate, but it also seems appropriate in the sense that it is an important part of American history. Any thoughts? bahamut0013 23:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Depends. If you assume the Confederacy was its own nation, then the flags it used in the military would not be U.S. flags. If the Confederacy did not exist as a country, then the flags are from rebellious sections still part of the whole. (I hated writing that one, I'm a Southern boy!) How do other categories of nations deal with flags used in their civil wars? How are the flags of Ireland classified? We should strive to be consistent with our labeling. Kresock (talk) 01:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
Well, it was used in a military context by parts of what was and still is the United States. In that sense it seems appropriate. On the other hand, everything about the confederate flag is controversial! Pfly (talk) 07:11, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
That, and elements of all of the Confederate flags can be found in many forms today, in and out of the military. You asked about Ireland, and that issue is sufficiently muddled that we probably shouldn't look there for advice. For the most part, pages seem to be included in the current status if there isn't a historical category for that topic. If I had to lean one way or the other, I would say that we could forgo political correctness and add it; I doubt too many people will be confused and think that the categoric inclusion meant that the Confederate states were a compnent of the US. bahamut0013 22:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)

Use in WWII[edit]

Does anybody have a reference to the Confederate Flags use during WWII? Many southern units adopted it as their unofficial flag and it was flown over Okinawa for a short time by Marines. I wanted to add this information, but I've been unable to comeup with any suitable references. Jim Steele (talk) 13:10, 29 August 2008 (UTC)


Actually, I have a reference for you! 'The Confederate Battle Flag: America's Most Embattled Emblem' by John M. Coski, 2005. pg 91.

and, as a lark, one Marine Colonel William O. Bryce, as a joke formed a short lived unit named Confederate Forces in the Solomon Islands (CONFORSOLS). ibid, pg 92 - 93.

Thinkvoyager

Use by Rockabilly fans[edit]

I made a minor but important edit. The comment "Also rockabilly fans hold the Confederate flag as their emblem." is a generalization that is not supported by any evidence I can find. Neither the Rockabilly page, nor the Rockabilly Hall of Fame reference the flag. I know that some of Rockabilly fans do use it, and I have edited it to reflect this. I am a Rockabilly fan and do "use it as my emblem" nor to many of the fans in my experience. Perhaps this is personal research but the statement is still an unsupported generalization. Wildwose (talk) 15:06, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Controversy[edit]

Why is the Battle flag considered more controversial than the Stars and Bars? How is the Stars and Bars "not offensive"? Emperor001 (talk) 17:58, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

That depends on how one views the CSA. If one views the CSA itself as having existed solely to support slavery and racial oppression, then yes, all of its flags would be seen as controversial. However, that is a narrow viewpoint which the historical facts do not support. - BilCat (talk) 19:39, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

In answer to the original question, the "Stars and Bars" flag is generally not held to be offensive for two simple reasons: most people don't know what the hell the "Stars and Bars" is, and the "Stars and Bars" flag has not been appropriated by white-supremacists as a symbol of the good ol' days before America went wrong and let African-Americans vote and actually exercise their Constitutional rights. And yes, the so-called Confederate States of American did, indeed, exist solely to protect the institution of slavery and its future expansion. All other issues that are purported to be the founding principles of the Confederacy invariably lead back to slavery. The supposed devotion to States' Rights was actually quite situational, as no southerners opposed the Fugitive Slave Act, which trampled on State's Rights (in this case, northern states) like no Act before it. The funny thing is, that Confederate leaders before and during the war had no problem admitting that secession was almost entirely about slavery. After the war, of course, when trying to justify treason and the fact that they started the war, they had to rebrand the Confederacy as a response to Northern aggression or a defense of genteel agrarian values against a dehumanizing industrial colossus. In that, they seem to have done a pretty good job, to the detriment of truth.--172.190.30.2 (talk) 05:09, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Links to Related Articles on Other Flags[edit]

Flags of the Confederate States of America

There's been some misunderstanding about the "See also" links that I've added and modified in the article on the Flags of the Confederate States of America. Since the topic of the article is flags of a political entity against which the United States was engaged in war, links to articles on other flags (especially war flags) representing other political entities against which the US was subsequently engaged in war will be of interest to readers of the article. Given the different nature of the Korean and Vietnam Wars (which were themselves primarily civil wars) and the nature of US involvment in them, I didn't include links to articles on those flags, but if anyone can think of any others, the addition of links to articles on analagous flags would be helpful to the reader. A second, close connection will be of interest to readers of this article: an article on flags of a political entity against which the United States was engaged in war, flags which then after the war carried (in the minds of some) racial overtones, and the display of which is (rightly or wrongly) controversial in contemporary society, but nevertheless employed by musicians (especially of a certain genre) and in popular culture (e.g., to signal a character who is supposed to be of a particular stereotype). Given all of these extremely close parallels, a link to the article on the Flag of Nazi Germany is indeed related and anyone interested in either the military, racial, or societal aspects of the flags of the Confederacy will be interested in that article as well. I know there's a stigma around both flags in both countries, but in keeping with Wikipedia's NPOV, we needn't shy away from the legitimate sociological and historical comparison that readers of the article will expect. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.46.200.60 (talk) 19:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

Several editors have removed you additions. Continuing to re-add these without a consensus may lead to your being blocked under the Three-revert rule.
This article is not about "a political entity against which the United States was engaged in war", but specifically about the Flags of the CSA, and the political controversy they have generated in the 20th century. I note that you have only included flags of fascist nations which the US has fought. The Union Flag in particular has caused much controversy inb the lands which the UK has occupied, and is even called "the butcher's apron" by many, yet this was left out. Teh flags of France, the Netherlands, the Republic of South Africa, and others that the US has not fought directly have also been controversial symbols of racist oppression, yet these were also left out. This leaves the appearance that there is a specific attempt to link the CSA's flags with that of Facism in general, or the Nazis in particular, and this is highly offensive to many. If their is a specific article on controversial flags in general (I don't know if there is one), then that would be appropriate. However, we can't list every flag that has generated racial controversy here, as the list would be far too long. - BilCat (talk) 19:25, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
If I may jump in, it seems to me that the article is very much about flags of the CSA - the very existence of which was inextricably linked to the American Civil War. And actually, they didn't only include flags of fascist nations, they also included the Reichskriegsflagge, persumably since the US fought Germany in WWI. And the Grand Union Flag *is* included as a link. I suppose the reason the flags of all the nations that the US has not fought directly but that have been controversial symbols of racist oppression were left out is because the US didn't fight them directly. I'm sure it is offensive to many that the Battle Flag of the Confederacy is, like the flag of Nazi Germany, used (by some) as a symbol of racism, controversial in their respective societies, and has become a banner for select musical styles (Country Western singers, as mentioned in the article, and Punk, respectively), but offense at true and accurate statements does not warrant censure on Wikipedia. There are Wiki artilces on the Armenian Genocide (yes, it really happened, sorry Ottoman Turks) and on Torture and the United States (sorry my fellow Americans, it really did take place). It is unacceptable for individuals to remove (links to related) content simply because they object to it or find it highly offensive based on their geographical location. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.91.63.143 (talk) 12:35, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
"If I may jump in," ...sure, socks usually come in pairs. The "See also" section is about pertinent links to the subject (not Flags, not Nazis). Please see WP:SEE ALSO.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 13:01, 20 April 2010 (UTC)
That they do! Anyway, the consensus here is clearly against the inclusin of the Nazi/German links as not relevant. - BilCat (talk) 15:24, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Controversy (redux)[edit]

The controversy section does a lot to explain why the (battle) flag should not be seen as offensive, while giving a nod or two as to why it should. The fact is that most people find it either offensive or discomfiting. Many Southerners, whites included, recognize it as a symbol of racism. I don't think that we should whitewash its association with segregation, racism, and slavery, or the fact that slavery played a large if not principal role in secession (see the declarations of secession, all (I think) of which point significantly to slavery as a causus belli). In fact, nearly every paragraph of the controversy section points to why it should *not* be viewed as controversial (symbol of Southern heritage, culture, etc.). African-American, Northern, and anti-Confederate white Southern perspectives are notably and lamentably absent. --71.235.239.166 (talk) 07:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Current Use in Northern States[edit]

I notice the current usage discussion in this article deals mostly with usage of the flag in the Southern states. I don't know enough to add a whole section, or how to document it, but the CSA battle flag, or more commonly, a picture of it, is often seen in the Northern states as well, and items bearing the CSA BF image are found in many souvenir shops and gas staions. Up here the flag is not so much a slavery or racist symbol, but rather represents concepts ranging from freedom from federal control (a common theme in the West as well as the South) to rebellion against the "establishment" in general, to proudly being a Jeff Foxworthy style redneck.RoastDack (talk) 15:37, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

One often sees it for sale in the North alongside such things as the Jolly Roger, another anti-authority/establishment, at least in modern times. Still, the confederate flag can and sometimes is used for multiple purposes, some contemptible, some honorable, and many neither, in the North as well as in the South. If something about this topic is to be added, I'd suggest not focusing on the North per se, but on the way the usage of the confederate flag changed in the 20th century from mostly "serious" to mostly "frivolous", even kitschy purposes. And this is not limited to the USA either. There's a chapter or two about this in the Coski book. Apparently the Daughters of the Confederacy, or the Sons of Confederate Veterans, I forget which, tried to stop the trend but failed. Pfly (talk) 23:42, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Organization[edit]

I've noticed that the article's main divisions are 'National Flags' and 'Other Flags'. In my opinion it would be better to divide 'Other' into 'War Flags' and 'Secession Flags'. War flags would detail the ANV battle flag (which is mislabeled in the article as 'The Battle Flag of the Confederacy), the Hardee battle flag (which doesn't appear at all in Wikipedia) and the Polk battle flag. 'Secession flags' could detail the Bonnie Blue and various other secession/sovereignty flags. Lewa.27 (talk) 15:27, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

use in state flags: Add Arkansas ?[edit]

as per the article on the State of Arkansas Flag. "Some believe[who?] that the flag bears a resemblance to the Confederate Battle Flag. Though the colors and star pattern are similar, the flag does not have the saltire pattern of the Confederate flag. In addition, the history of the flag clearly shows that it was not considered to honor the Confederacy until the fourth star was added for that specific purpose in 1923."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Arkansas

I would like to suggest adding the state to the list, with the appropriate paragraph quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa (talkcontribs) 05:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

As it's uncited speculation with an old {{who}} tag, I've removed it from Flag of Arkansas. - BilCat (talk) 05:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

confedrate flag[edit]

confedrate flag — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.109.55.75 (talk) 23:10, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

use in state flags: Add Arkansas ?[edit]

--174.109.55.75 (talk) 23:11, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

as per the article on the State of Arkansas Flag. "Some believe[who?] that the flag bears a resemblance to the Confederate Battle Flag. Though the colors and star pattern are similar, the flag does not have the saltire pattern of the Confederate flag. In addition, the history of the flag clearly shows that it was not considered to honor the Confederacy until the fourth star was added for that specific purpose in 1923."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Arkansas

I would like to suggest adding the state to the list, with the appropriate paragraph quoted above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gizziiusa (talk • contribs) 05:14, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

As it's uncited speculation with an old [who?] tag, I've removed it from Flag of Arkansas. - BilCat (talk) 05:33, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

changed "Controversy" section, paragraph 1[edit]

I removed the final sentence, concerning the flag becoming racially charged during the Civil Rights movement, on the grounds that the flag has always been a racially charged symbol in the United States. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zedweiller (talkcontribs) 03:26, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Removing the whole sentence removes key info. Reword it if necessary. - BilCat (talk) 22:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Confederate flag flown at funeral home in Chicago[edit]

Camp Douglas Modern day:

Today, condominiums fill most of the site where Camp Douglas stood. For many years, a local funeral home built on the site maintained prisoner records and a Confederate flag at half-staff. The business closed December 31, 2007.[1]

I changed the link to HighBeam (membership required) when the original went dead. Today I found a no-membership-required archive of the original and backed it up at WebCite. The Civil War Talk Forum posting has an image of a battle flag that appears similar to the Second Confederate Naval Ensign, with red and blue colors reversed, that is likely the poster's own and not related to the story, the relevant paragraph of which reads:

The African-American-owned business is also part of another unique chapter in local history. It sits on land that was once Camp Douglas, a Civil War camp used to house Confederate prisoners of war. About 6,000 Confederates died from disease and exposure there – and they are memorialized on the Heritage Memorial Wall outside the funeral home. It includes a Confederate flag flown at half-staff.[2]

--Pawyilee (talk) 08:40, 9 August 2012 (UTC) Edit to clarify flag --Pawyilee (talk) 09:15, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

  1. ^ "60-year legacy ends; Venerable business, which was built on site of Civil War POW camp, is closing at end of the year" (membership required). HighBeam Research. 
  2. ^ Shamus Tomey. "Griffin Funeral Home (Chicago) Built On Site Of Camp Douglas Closing At End Of Year" (archive). Civil War Talk. Chicago Sun Times. Archived from the original on 2012-08-09. Retrieved August 9, 2012. "The African-American-owned business ... includes a Confederate flag flown at half-staff." 

Modern usage[edit]

Hi everyone, I was wondering if some of you more knowledgeable folks could add to the main article and discuss in greater length/detail the usage of the Confederate Flag(s). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.132.53.178 (talk) 05:13, 18 April 2013 (UTC)

LL-Cool-J and BBQ[edit]

I removed some content (editing anonymously at the time) from the controversy section of the page that was pretty poorly written and poorly sourced. There was a paragraph from a pastor who was referred to as "respected", without saying who supposedly respects him, that had been posted to a web page for a barbecue restaurant. I've never heard of the guy, and I can't find anything about him except the one sermon, so he doesn't seem like an actually notable voice. And there was another single-sentence paragraph that cryptically said that "attributed" sources had discounted the interpretation of Confederate flags as racist, but this turned out to be LL-Cool-J in a song. So I think the content should be deleted both for being needlessly obfuscated and of little actual credibility. I looked at the history, and noticed that there have been a couple of edits both ways, so I figured I'd try to start some discussion to see if we can't build a consensus. Rexlunae (talk) 09:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

An additional effort to add the material back, again without discussion, has been reverted. The editor exchanged one bad source (the L L Cool J) for another (an I-Report on CNN by a viewer). The editor (CountryboyCS) has made his case worse by using the racist phrase "colored people" to make his case. As for Maurice's BBQ blog, the place is famous for flying the Confederate Flag and selling books that are actually pro-slavery. CountryboyCS has a seriously flawed agenda in edit warring this issue. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:15, 6 July 2013 (UTC)
Counting myself, four editors have now reverted this material. Obviously there is no consensus for this material. Tom (North Shoreman) (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2013 (UTC)