Talk:Flensburg Government

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Members[edit]

Does anyone have a list of the members of the "Flensburg government", the positions they held, and dates of office? I've seen such a list before but can't find it online. Homey 16:31, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

Graf Lutz von Schwerin-Krosigk (Foreign Minister, Minister of Finance, and presiding officer of the Cabinet), Dr. Wilhelm Stuckart (Minister of the Interior and Minister of Culture), Albert Speer (Minister of Industry and Production), Dr. Herbert Backe (Minister of Food, Agriculture and Forests), Dr. Franz Seldte (Minister of Labor and Social Affairs), and Dr. Dorpmueller (Minister of Posts and Communications).

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v04/v04p305_Thompson.html

This is "revisionist history" and I do not associate myself with it in any way.

BScar23625 21:26, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

What position, if any, did Rosenberg have?Homey 02:18, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Homey. Without rummaging through the internet, I don't know. Actually, I might rummage if I find myself with nothing better to do for an hour. What do you think of Thompson's crazy article?. I wonder who he is?. The look of the article suggests he has some credible academic background. Bob BScar23625 08:34, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

A look into the German article de:Geschäftsführende Reichsregierung might answer some of the questions (some contradictions to the current English article):
  • 20 April 1945 Cabinet (except for Hitler, Goebbels & Bormann) flees Berlin
  • 21 April: Arrival at Eutin
  • 23 April: First Cabinet meeting at Eutin, chaired by von Krosingk (because of his seniority) - daily meetings on the following days
  • 30 April: Hitler commits suicide
  • 1 May: Dönitz becomes President
  • 2 May: Cabinet resigns, Dönitz instructs von Krosingk to form a new cabinet. They move to Flensburg where they arrive the next day
  • 5 May: The new cabinet meets for the first time
  • 6 May: Dönitz removes Himmler and Rosenberg from all their offices because they tried to interfere with the new government
  • 7 May: Krosingk announces unconditional surrender
  • 8 May: Dönitz confirms surrender
  • 12 May: "Government" meets at Mürwik naval base under supervision of allied troops
  • 23 May: "Government" is arrested and leaves Flensburg
Hitler's last Cabinet consisted of Herbert Backe, Leonardo Conti, Julius Heinrich Dorpmüller, Lutz von Krosigk, Otto Meißner, Joachim von Ribbentrop, Alfred Rosenberg, Bernhard Rust, Franz Seldte, Albert Speer and Otto Georg Thierack; plus Generalfeldmarschalle Fedor von Bock, Walther von Brauchitsch and Erich von Manstein.
Dönitz' Cabinet were Lutz von Schwerin-Krosigk, Albert Speer, Wilhelm Stuckart, Herbert Backe, Franz Seldte and Julius Heinrich Dorpmüller plus a staff of several hundred. --Qualle (talk) 12:25, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Qualle. Thankyou for your contribution. You and I agree that Keitel and Jodl were never members of the Donitz cabinet. The main article is inaccurate in indicating this. The Flensburg government was effectively ended on 23 May 1945, but parts of it carried on functioning for some time after that date. A trawl through the internet indicates that the last meetings of various bodies associated with that government took place as late as August 1945. Bob BScar23625 14:22, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

My sources are primarily de.wikipedia as well as my (very limited) knowledge from history classes in school. de:Sonderbereich Mürwik partially overlaps with de:Geschäftsführende Reichsregierung, but focuses on the area that was "governed" by the Dönitz government after the surrender. This article states that they met daily even after the Allies arrived, but that their decisions were completely ignored outside their area of influence (about 14 km²). The August date may derive from the fact that the Allied Control Council constituted itself in late August - so some parts of the government probably weren't officially abolished until then. De facto they almost certainly stopped working at the time of Dönitz arrest (if not earlier). Even if they met, their meetings would've had no consequences to the people they "governed" and would therefore be irrelevant.
Germany may have very thourough bureaucrats, but in 1945 even they would have worried about their personal survival in a time of chaos and hunger, rather than shuffle paperwork.--Qualle (talk) 15:15, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Qualle. Perhaps it is impertinent of me to discuss German history with you?. However, I make a couple of points. The Flensburg government had some control over German forces up to and beyond 7 May. They were in radio contact with army units and U-boats deployed between the Arctic and the South Atlantic. For example, they ordered the German garrison in the Channel Islands to surrender. Also, there is evidence that residual elements of the government continued shuffling paper right up to August (see the article referenced above). Bob BScar23625 16:21, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Not at all - as I mentioned above, my knowledge about this topic comes from secondary and tertiary sources, so it's perfectly concievable that I'm wrong. Where I live, the war ended 9 March 1945 - consequently I focused my research on WWII on the time before that. In my mind, the Flensburg Government is something of a strange episode of post-war Germany - forgive my if that impairs my judgement. --Qualle (talk) 18:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

People should please feel free to actually edit the article. Particularly as the two of you are far better informed on the matter than I am.

As for the revisionist article, I don't know if the guy is an academic with revisionist views or just a very enthusiastic amateur. I found it interesting that he made no mention of Himmler (or Rosenberg) - perhaps in an attempt to put Donitz in the best light. I would prefer not to link to the article as it's veracity is suspect (given the above evidence of "lying by ommission"). Thanks for the info on Rosenberg, anyone know what position he held - he was minister of the occupied territories in the East under Hitler but that would have been a particularly phantomic position to be given in Flensburg. Homey 16:30, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

For my part I have to admit that I'm not too interested in the Flensburg Government and was just doing a quick translation from german Wikipedia. Personally, I spent so much time in arguments with Neonazis who claim that the German Empire legally never ceased to exist that I'm tired of everything post-Hitler and pre-Adenauer.--Qualle (talk) 18:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Rosenberg and Himmler were never members of the Flensburg government. They showed up first in Ploen, then Flensburg, and tried to insinuate themselves into Donitz cabinet. Rosenberg claimed that, as the most senior surviving Party Reichsleiter, he alone had the authority to dissolve the Nazi Party (and he intended to do so). Himmler tried to wheedle some form of official recognition from Donitz and hung around Flensburg for some time in early May until finally disappearing with a few close assistants in an attempt to avoid arrest. Donitz refused to work with either and did NOT take them into his cabinet. He did, however, draft official letters relieving them of their former offices-- an attempt to let them know in no uncertain terms that they weren't wanted. These letters, dated May 6, must be the genesis of the info in this article that both men were members of the Flensburg cabinet until May 6; not really correct, as you can see. Since Himmler was removed from all his offices by Hitler on or about April 28, his "official" tenure as Interior Minister ended then; and since Rosenberg was not included in Hitler's political testament, then upon Hitler's death and Donitz's succession, Rosenberg ceased to be a government minister at that time. In any case, though physically present in Flensburg and desirous of attention (and whatever scraps of power they might hang on to), Donitz and Speer were adamant about NOT cooperating with these two, especially Himmler, in any way. In fact, when Himmler requested a plane to fly him to Prague (still controlled by the SS), Speer and Donitz considered giving him one and ordering the pilot to land at an Allied airfield. 24.250.114.65 (talk) 01:27, 16 August 2010 (UTC)TexxasFinn

Arrest[edit]

Dönitz says he was arrested on board a steamship by the Allied Control Commission, not at his HQ by the British Army. I'm going to change the article unless someone can come up with a source for the current text. Rees11 (talk) 01:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The Donitz government was HQ'd on the steamship Patria, based at Flensburg. British Army personnel were ordered by the ACC to arrest the government members on May 23.24.250.114.65 (talk) 01:33, 16 August 2010 (UTC)TexxasFinn

Omissions?[edit]

Something is needed to make this make sense: "At the same time, the Fascist press on both sides of the Atlantic has put it abroad that conditions in Germany in 1918, when German Rightists produced similar fairy-tales of impending chaos". It looks as though it should read something like "...conditions in Germany resemble those in 1918..." [guess at omitted wording emphasised]. PMLawrence (talk) 12:00, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

German Instrument of Surrender[edit]

Why does it say the German Instrument of Surrender was signed on 23 May when it was actually signed on 7-8 May? Rees11 (talk) 23:00, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Never mind, I see it's being edited now. Rees11 (talk) 23:02, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

Infobox?[edit]

Does the administration really require it's own country infobox? It was not a "Provisional government" or successor state to the Third Reich, only an administration of it (Cabinet Schwerin von Krosigk). The same constitution, laws, etc. of the Reich were still in place and effect. People have begun linking to it from other articles purporting that it was an actual separate country. I'll remove it soon if no one has any arguments. Lt.Specht (talk) 00:41, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

German State[edit]

The text reads at present:"Therefore, on June 5, 1945, the German state officially ceased to exist, and Germany was placed under Allied military occupation." I'd object to the expression state, it should be replaced by government. --41.15.94.169 (talk) 11:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Removing infobox[edit]

This article is fine as an article about a unique administration of Nazi Germany, but it was still a government of Nazi Germany. I am removing the infobox that insinuates that it was a separate state.--R-41 (talk) 17:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I like infoboxes in articles. Very handy and useful. Plus pages look more "professional" when they have them. So, I think we should keep it but find a way to make sure it does not insinuate that it was a separate state. So should it use the Nazi Germany infobox? It was a continuation of Nazi German government. --Harizotoh9 (talk) 03:03, 21 February 2012 (UTC)