Talk:Food in occupied Germany

High wartime German standard of living due to siezing possessions of Jews and enforced currency exchange

A well researched academic book I read (forgotten title) shows that the high wartime German standard of living was due to siezing possessions of Jews and giving them as loyalty rewards to non-Jews, and an artificially high exchange rate for the occupation and local currencies paid as fabulous high wages to German soldiers in occupied countries, plus enforced huge payments of local currency to Germany, meaning that a lot of food and other luxury items were sent back to Germany resulting in food shortages for the people in the occupied countries plus economic ruin there. Not due to being clever, hard working, or efficient, but just robbery and worse. 92.29.53.28 (talk) 13:50, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The American Quakers sent food parcels to the starving post-war Germany. School children got some food in small pots for lunch. The favourite was usually cocoa. I remember the Americans als friendly toward children, especially blacks. This may be one of the reasons why West Germans became very open towards American culture.--85.181.51.199 (talk) 17:07, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

Neutral point of view?

On first reading this article certainly does not seem to meet Neutral Point of View and for an article to make it to the front page of Wikipedia I believe it behooves us all to attempt to ensure that those articles at least meet some minimum standards. Which does not seem to be the case here. This article it seems reads more like propaganda then it does fact and there is very little discussion on it's validity which troubles me. Anyone else? Albertaboy28 (talk) 14:02, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

As well it would seem the very title of this article has more to do with a anti-American sentiment then it does anything else. The article cites various stats about the conditions of POWs in French captivity but some how that becomes the fault of the american? Albertaboy28 (talk) 14:06, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

The French stats are confined to a very brief paragraph, so it's hardly a big deal. And they are relevant as relates to US policy, remember that the U.S. made the deal to use forced labor already in the Yalta conference, and of the forced laborers that the French used the majority of them had been captured by the US and in 1945 handed over to French authorities by the U.S. specifically for use as "reparations labor" (this included the captives in one or more of the Rhine camps), about 740,000 captives in total. General Patton was apparently one of the (silent) critics of this, e.g. "I am also opposed to sending PW's to work as slaves in foreign lands [in particular, to France] where many will be starved to death"[1]--Stor stark7 ^Speak 14:54, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

It is a big deal because it has nothing to do with american food policy. Also the POV in all of these articles is jacked our only policy was no fraternization(dont give them food, dont talk to them, dont shake hands, etc etc because they might be nazis), keeping german standards of living in line with other western european nations(aka we didnt let aid come to germany because they were better off than the rest of europe and the u.s. thought there was more need for the aid elsewhere.), and a restructering of their economy from industrial to agriculture so we wouldnt have to go to war with them again, you people in all of these articles make our motives look like something it wasnt with quotes from people that werent involved in any decisionmaking. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.233.215.96 (talk) 18:17, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Food policy in occupied Germany

Wigger's assertion that German infant mortality was "twice" that of Western Europe for three years is questionable. Victor Gollancz,not one to minimize German suffering, said that in 1946 infant mortality in the British zone dropped to 75 per 1,OOO births. This was 13 more than pre-war German infant mortality and 9 more than pre-war French infant mortality. German infant mortality had been close to twice that of the Netherlands before the war--cf. the League of Nations report "Food,Famine,and Relief". The charge that the Americans were starving Germans is a half truth. They let them starve because nearly all the food shipments were going to Eastern Europe,which needed them as badly as Germany--the League of Nations report again. I doubt the Americans had the means to feed both Germany and Eastern Europe,not in the midst of a worldwide food shortage. At the end of the summer of 1947,Washington promised 3.6 million tons of food for Germany--see the published papers of General Lucius Clay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 14:08, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

Aaron Carine — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 22:02, 3 February 2011 (UTC) --Aaron Carine (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)--Aaron Carine (talk) 22:44, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

They probably dont care, apparently wikipedia is run by anti american propogandists that dont care about motives —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.233.215.96 (talk) 18:29, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Food policy

Wigger's assertion that German infant mortality was "twice" that of Western Europe for three years is questionable. Victor Gollancz,not one to minimize German suffering,said that in 1946 infant mortality in the British zone fell to 75 per 1,OOO births. This was 13 more than Germany's pre-war rate and only 9 more than the pre-war French rate. Germany had close to twice the infant mortality rate of the Netherlands before the war--cf. the League of Nations report "Food,Famine,and Relief". The charge that the Americans were starving Germans is a half truth. They let them starve because nearly all the food shipments were going to Eastern Europe,which needed them as badly as Germany--the League of Nations report again. I doubt the Americans had the means to feed both Germany and Eastern Europe,not in the midst of a worldwide food shortage. At the end of the summer of 1947,Washington promised 3.6 million tons of food for Germany--see the published papers of General Lucius Clay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 14:20, 3 February 2011 (UTC)

fiasco

Someone please tell me what I'm doing wrong!14:32, 3 February 2011 (UTC)Aaron Carine (talk)

Adding spaces to the start of text messes up the formatting for some weird reason (it's a Wikipedia-wide issue). I've just fixed it. Nick-D (talk) 09:41, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks,Nick. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 12:01, 4 February 2011 (UTC) The book Eisenhower and the German POWS provides considerable evidence that the starvation of prisoners,at least,was not a deliberate policy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 12:50, 7 February 2011 (UTC) Wiggers says that German infant mortality in 1945 was twice that of the United States. He then says the German rate began declining in 1946. We must then imagine that infant mortality in war-torn Western Europe was considerably below that of the United States,if the German rate was still twice that of Western Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 19:56, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Aaron, if you've got a source which covers this topic it would be great if you could use it to expand the article. Nick-D (talk) 21:55, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Apart from the sources cited by the article, the sources I know for the German food crisis are Victor Gollancz,In Darkest Germany,Giles Macdonogh,After the Reich,and Lucius Clay,Decision in Germany. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 23:49, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 12:16, 21 February 2011 (UTC) 

Done. Instruction on how to include references are available at Wikipedia:Citing sources. Cheers, Nick-D (talk) 07:20, 22 February 2011 (UT —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.193.85 (talk) 02:27, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Never mind,I did it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.193.85 (talk) 03:16, 12 March 2011 (UTC) I —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.193.85 (talk) 23:26, 15 March 2011 (UTC) I've come across a passage in Balabkins that may put the whole premise of this article into question. He cites official statistics that say the British and American zones were getting over a quarter of a million tons of food per month in 1946.

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.109.125 (talk) 20:58, 25 March 2011 (UTC) 

John Farquharson says that one Hamburg hospital recorded 82 hunger related deaths out of 1300 deaths. Since Hamburg had over 2 percent of Germany's urban population--there was no food shortage in rural areas--if the same rate prevailed over Germany the number of hunger related deaths in that period would have been barely in the tens of thousands. Farquharson also says that in the first three months of 1947--the worst period for Germany--there were four thousand known oedema cases in Lower Saxony,which would not seem to support the claims that the death toll was in the hundreds of thousands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.193.85 (talk) 16:10, 13 April 2011 (UTC) Historian Alice Weintraub also thinks the claims of Langer and others about mass starvation were seriously exaggerated,the result of uncritical use of German sources. Wiggers seems to rely more on anecdotal evidence than statistics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.61.109.125 (talk) 01:32, 23 May 2011 (UTC) The assertion that the average German was getting less than 1500 calories a day is doubtful. The "normal consumer" ration,which was the lowest of several ration scales, fell below 1500 calories. Herbert Hoover said that less than half the people in the Anglo-American zone were on the NC ration; another one-sixth were farmers who were eating as well as they were before the war. Germans were getting food outside of the ration; Lucius Clay said they were getting an additional 200 calories a day; John Farquharson says it was 300-500 calories. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.62.167.238 (talk) 14:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Inexplicable Acronyms

What are, pray tell, the DEP and the SEP? Average readers would love to know. -- Brothernight (talk) 07:13, 20 November 2011 (UTC) My reading of Farquharson, Weintraub, and other sources make me wonder about the validity of this whole article. It seems like an exercise in America-bashing. The available statistics really don't support the claims of Langer and others that there was mass starvation. Herbert Hoover said that the Anglo-Americans were spending nearly 600 million a year to feed Germans, which casts some doubt on Wigger's tale of American inhumanity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.244.33 (talk) 17:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Re-write

I'm planning on re-writing this article so that it presents a broader picture of the issue of food availability in occupied Germany (which might be a better name for the article). The current version seems rather slanted towards proving a point... Nick-D (talk) 07:13, 12 March 2014 (UTC)

I should doubtless be blamed for missing Balabkins' statement on pg. 108, which flatly contradicts his previous statement about the beneficial effects of American food shipments. Perhaps my citation should be deleted. However, if you're going to re-write the article, it should be mentioned that the other person's citation of Balabkins(in Conclusions) is rather tendentious . Balabkins does indeed say that "without additional foods, (Germans) would eventually succumb to starvation". In the next paragraph, Balabkins says that Germans were getting additional foods, 500 calories a day by his count. Sources I would recommend are the British Medical Journal(November 30,1946, February 1 and May 17,1947)and the Christian Science Monitor, Feb. 3, 1947. It should perhaps be noted that not all Germans were on the same ration; the different ration scales are related by Farquharson (The Western Allies and the Politics of Food) and Hoover("Agricultural and Food Requirements"). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aaron Carine (talk • contribs) 19:35, 13 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Nick-D (talk) 09:51, 14 March 2014 (UTC)

Is there still a re-write planned? I know of a source that proves that some food relief shipments to Germany were being made during the time when JCS 1067 was supposedly prohibiting them. In January 1946 leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints arrived in Europe and traveled throughout the war area, including Germany. They brought a large shipment of food with them and set up a long term food distribution. This was a follow up to a previous smaller scale program of sending relief packages by regular post, 13,000 of which had been sent between the fall of 1945 and January 1946. the source is: </ref>https://www.lds.org/manual/church-history-in-the-fulness-of-times-student-manual/chapter-forty-one-postwar-recovery?lang=eng</ref? Nate.a-85 (talk) 16:15, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I added some stuff, but the article needs lots more work to remove its bias and provide comprehensive coverage of the topic. Please go ahead and add more. Nick-D (talk) 22:38, 20 November 2015 (UTC)