Talk:Forward (association football)
|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Forward (association football) article.|
|WikiProject Football||(Rated C-class, High-importance)|
- 1 Forward vs. striker
- 2 HUGE confusion between "Playmaker" and "Second Striker"
- 3 Well-known strikers
- 4 More players added
- 5 The "Sheringham" role
- 6 Drogba
- 7 Names of strikers- why not just list several from different countries rather than revert constantly?
- 8 Removal of Examples?
- 9 Requested move
- 10 Deep-Lying??
- 11 Terminology
- 12 Striker vs Centre Forward (yet again)
- 13 Number 10 and Poor Terminology
- 14 Merger
- 15 The false 9(New Page Request)
- 16 Name of the page
- 17 Me about introduction
- 18 Highest fee
- 19 ghrth ntm
Forward vs. striker
The term "striker" is not synonomous with "forward" in football. A striker is a type of forward that plays as far up the field as he can, and waits on the shoulder of the last defender, waiting for a ball over the top, or a through this a ball of ball along the floor. Michael Owen is a striker, Wayne Rooney isn't. Ronaldo is, Ronaldinho isn't.
- Wrong. A striker is the same as a forward and attacker. They are synonymous. The type of player you describe is called a centre forward. Where'd you got that description from? Mandel June 28, 2005 16:54 (UTC)
- No, you are wrong. Since when does anyone call a foward winger a striker... Udonknome 22:29, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
- Right Team sheets often include players listed as strikers (or centre foward) and other players listed as Forwards. It could also be argued that a striker is an even more attacking version of a centre forward. A striker waits for oppotunities to score goals. A forward sets up other players, usually his partner (the striker). A centre forward is not the same as a forward, it is a type of forward. A more accurate version of this article would be called Forward with various types listed. e.g. inside foward, outside forward, striker or forward. josh 23:11, 26 August 2005 (UTC)
- If Eto'o and Messi are the strikers, this Leaves Giuly and Ronaldinho as... non-strikers. The 107K results tell me nothing... 95% of fans would agree Ronaldinho is not a striker. He is the best footballer in the world as of October 2005, and this is an Argentine saying this... 220.127.116.11 09:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- An Argentinian whose English is not up to par maybe...there could be a word distinguishing the two in Spanish, unfortunately, this is the English encyclopedia; in English, the two are one and the same. UEFA calls Ronadinho a striker. Mandel 14:56, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
- I actually half disagree with you, in a way. These days strikers fall under two categories, number nines and number tens. Your #9 is definitely a striker, but you can't class your typical #10 as an out and out striker, because they're just as comfortable in midfield. Luis Garcia is probably the best example of a "forward" I can think of right now. It would probably be a good idea to make this distinction on the page? --Scarfo 00:32, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
- The guy at the top is right, forward is not synonymous with striker. Even the article goes on to list under the headings of "Centre forward" and "Deep-lying forwards". I propose this article should be renamed to Forward (football). The infoboxes also use the two-letter abbr. FW, and the Football Manager series of games distinguishes between SC (out and out striker), FC (centre forward), FR (right forward) and FL (left forward). The latter two are not wingers by the way. -- Boothman /tɔːk/ 18:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC).
I would concur that 'Striker' and 'Forward' are one and the same.--Mike Infinitum 22:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
- A forward does not have to be a striker. They are not one and the same thing. A forward plays in a forward role whereas the strikers main aim is to strike the ball! Cls14 12:10, 10 March 2007 (UTC)
In recent years with the popularity of Zinedine Zidane and Ronaldinho, the No.10 has been more associated with playmakers/attacking midfielders. - unsigned
I was surprised to see that forward redirected to striker, because the players whose positions I have listed as the former in the past definitely aren't strikers. I'll put this to a wider community for discussion. - Dudesleeper · Talk 11:06, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
"Forward" and "Striker" are most assurdely not synonymous. The term "forward" incorporates wingers and all manner of hyphenated-forwards. Glance at any squad list in any pre-tournament publication you care to mention and you will see players such as Cristiano Ronaldo listed as "FW." Forward is synonymous with attacker; attacker is not synonmous with striker. DublinDilettante 04:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
The term "Striker" is NOT accurate: it includes Center Forwards and Second Strikers, but it doesn't include Wing Forwards like Cristiano Ronaldo or Robben... and ALL of these players are listed as "Forward" in TV transmissions and console games. This should be fixed or voted ASAP, since it's a HUGE mistake.Santiago Roza (Kq) 00:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
In any case, the section of this article that is labelled "Striker" should at least contain the word forward someplace. Right now it does not and it makes it seem that this section should not be in an article on Forwards. 18.104.22.168 (talk) 21:22, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
HUGE confusion between "Playmaker" and "Second Striker"
The article mixes two completely different concepts, under the inaccurate umbrella of "Deep-lying Forwards": the Playmaker ("Enganche" in Spanish) with the Second Striker ("Mediapunta"). The first role is about creativity, ball control and killer passing; while the second one is about speed, dribbling, and some goal scoring.
They should NOT be mixed in this article; which should only have the Second Striker role, not the Playmaker one (BTW, it should also have the Wing Forward role, but that would mean changing its title to the more correct "Forward").Santiago Roza (Kq) 00:42, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Zinedine Zidane, Juan Roman Riquelme and Lionel Messi are not Deep lying Forwards. Messi is a different breed of player, a player in a position between a Deep lying forward and an attacking midfielder and he is also a Playmaker. That's what makes Barcelona's formation unique along with Ronaldinho. Zinedine Zidane and Juan Roman Riquelme are Playmakers. Just because they wear the Number 10 doesn't mean they are deep lying forwards. In recent years the number 10 has been more the number of a playmaker and the number 11 is used for a Deep lying forward.
Yeah this article needs a lot of editing, the positions are not described for what they really are. They are mixing a lot of functions of different positions. Zidane and Riquelme are real PLAYMAKERS, Messi is not but he has the ability to be one. In argentina they gave him the position as a second striker or even a number 9 but due to not receving the ball he dropped back to midfield making it seem he was a attacking midfielder. In Barcelona Messi is not a playmaker, we know who they are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Natsunoyuutsu (talk • contribs) 16:33, 5 September 2011 (UTC)
The list of well-known strikers is ridiculous. It should have a more strict policy on who should be on and who shouldn't. There is no excuse to have players from women's football on there too, because it's not a popular sport in comparison to men's football.--Utotri 14:19, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
- In the USA they love their womens football. If that example means something to them, and the rest don't, leave it in.
- In the US they dont even love their mens football — Preceding unsigned comment added by Artaxus (talk • contribs) 19:22, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
I agree with that but Fernando Torres if you go to his wikipedia page you can see it says he is a striker. But in this page its says he is a center foward. Which is correct? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 04:16, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
More players added
I have just added several examples of what I believe to be well known players (regardless of stirker, forward, centre forward, etc); in doing so it makes this list somewhat British. I believe it needs expanding on a global scale to include others. The criteria I used to consider players was
1. They were well known for the type of role they played
2. They had competed at the highest level (e.g. World Cups, Champions League/UEFA cup, etc.)
3. They had been top scorers or held scoring records for their respective clubs.
If this same criteria is used the list could be more comprehensive and developed in to a category, e.g. Well known strikers.
Ianguy 23:49, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
- There is already such a list at List of renowned football players. It is linked under See Also as List of renowned strikers. The names were split from Football (soccer) positions. I think naming one or two very, very popular players as an example of a certain playing style is fine, but anything more than that would encourage fans to add their own favourite players. And eventually you would have something like this where the list takes up more space than the main content.(Which was the main reason for the split)--Dodo bird 06:31, 5 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree. Instead of listing prime examples, there seems to be an attempt to list every player you can think of in that role! I've edited the list down to a handfull for each role - although if anyone can think of better players to use as examples then please do so.--Mike Infinitum 22:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
The "Sheringham" role
I personally haven't heard it being called that in quite a while. Seeing how the name the sheringham role probably isn't relevant anymore I think it should be removed. Yonatanh 01:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
It is still occasionally used by the dinosaurs on 'Match of the Day' Nicander 08:03, 26 July 2006 (UTC)
Yes it is still used.
I don't think it is often called the 'Sheringham role' in the uk. Maybe on MOTD or in specific conversations about the England side but I don't think anyone would have the audacity to suggest that Maradona, Totti or Bergkamp played in the 'Sheringham role'. I think 'in the hole' should be the term used most in the uk maybe with a reference to the 'Sherringham role' being used occasionally. Lets face it he was only really any good in Euro 96 for England. I haven't made any changes just leaving my opinion Robbiati11 20:29, 21 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree, I've never heard anybody calling it the "Sheringham role" in my entire life - I'm sure there were plenty of good players in the same role before his time. It's always known as second striker round here or as said before "in the hole" Andy86 23:12, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Under centre-forwards Drogba is listed twice, under poachers, and target men. I noticed after questioning whether Drogba was a target man. He does certainly not fall under the category of players that attempt to shield the ball, turn and score, at least not in the premiership, although his use of strength cannot be questioned. I just do not believe he falls under the category of target man. I shall remove Drogba fromt the list of target men, as it allows the article to contradict itself to an extent, when it states "Other centre-forwards are known as "target men" and goes to to list Drogba when he was listed under the previous type of Centre-Forward. --126.96.36.199 09:13, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
- I think Drogba does a good bit of both. To avoid confusion, perhaps players whose style is not clearly/predominantly one of the roles listed should not be used as examples. The examples are there to do just that - provide examples for the audience to watch and see the role being carried out. They shouldn't be there out of an attempt to classify every famous forward in football. Thoughts? - Slow Graffiti 21:45, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
- As I said, this page does not and should not seek to classify every famous forward. - Slow Graffiti 04:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Names of strikers- why not just list several from different countries rather than revert constantly?
There is plenty of room in the article to include a section of famous strikers from different countries. Why not just have an area when the country is listed, and the names of notable strikers listed. It would avoid a lot of the edit changes and removals back and forth, and give everyone credit. Seems a better solution than constant reverts. The article is barely 20k big, there is plenty of room to accommodate everyone here.Enriquecardova (talk) 17:54, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Removal of Examples?
Why were the examples of the different styles of strikers eliminated, the inclusion of a few notable examples is no more subjective than the very acknowledgment of these unofficial roles. What is the purpose of this page? If it is to help people understand the position, the examples are a massive help by letting them associate the description with a real life example, likewise it greatly helps people who would like to compare one player to somebody that is similar who they might not have know, if there is no response I will undo the changes. I know the examples were a great help to me, and I will gladly put them back up as a great help to others.
This article needs to get rid of the misnomer "deep-lying centre-forward." If you are central and forward then how on earth can you be deep-lying? The position is known as being "in-the-hole" in English. The term "d-l-c-forward" dates from the 1950s when Hungary came to Wembley and battered England 6-3 with a revolutionary new style of game, using players in positions that the English had never seen used before. Faced with these new positions the confused English press invented lots of new-fangled names, most of which were clearly inadequate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 15:38, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
First of all, I admit my knowledge of this sport is basically nil.
Since I think this encyclopedia is supposed to be for a "general reader", it seems to me there is too much specialized terminology used in this article.
I recognize that editors have gone to a lot of effort to explain the terminology that is used. And with some success. The first point where I found it unclear was here:
- "to win long balls or receive passes and "hold up" the ball as team-mates advance, to help team-mates score by providing a pass ('through ball' into the box), or to score himself".
Whether it is possible, or worthwhile, to make the article clear to someone with my limited knowledge of the subject is another matter. I arrived at the article by clicking "random article". CBHA (talk) 03:30, 3 November 2008 (UTC)
Ditto what the first guy said, more or less. Except that I came here deliberately have encountered football terms in BBC news quite a few times without knowing what they mean. I can imagine what it's like being so familiar with the game that you would think twice about the meaning of "have the ability to slot the ball" but some of us can only guess what that might mean. Thanks in any case for giving me some idea of what a striker is. SewerCat (talk) 14:09, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Striker vs Centre Forward (yet again)
Can i please draw peoples attention to this page: []. It gives a clear and understandable distinction between strikers and centre forwards, why cant what is on that page be copied and pasted onto this page? It appears to be accepted on that page, so why not on here? Brock 009 (talk) 12:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)
- Because UEFA and FIFA do not make that distinction. If an international footballing organization does not recognize that, this article will conform to that. The Wikipedia link has no reference at all, making it dubious. 184.108.40.206 (talk) 16:42, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, that is why Wiki conforms to the fact 1)Henry did not use his hand, 2)using your hand is no longer a foul in football and all the rest of the nonsense FIFA do not acknowledge /sweep under the carpet. Striker and Centre Forward are two different roles, but hey if the geniuses at FIFA don't recognise it, despite the fact that teams do, then it can't be true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 14:59, 14 July 2010 (UTC)
Number 10 and Poor Terminology
Why the obsession with number 10? The number that most players wear nowadays are completely irrelevant to their position oj the field or their role within the team. Why do people keep insisting on referring to players as a 'number 10'? Even when the shirt numbers MEANT something the number 10 could be a midfielder or a forward.
Also, can we stop using the nonsense phrase 'Deep-Lying Centre-Forward' please? Think about the words. How can you be forward if you are deep-lying? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 01:14, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Should Outside forward be merged into this article? I reckon that it isn't unique or significant enough to have an article of its own and it is just a type of forward Alza08 (talk) 04:36, 19 January 2011 (UTC)
- Agree.—indopug (talk) 13:00, 28 January 2011 (UTC)
The false 9(New Page Request)
In addition to the pages of all possible positions in football, a new page should be dedicated to the false nine position. The false 9 or nine and a half is generally an attacking midfielder employed as a striker who eventually goes deep to support midfield. Swapnil2309 (talk) 05:10, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Name of the page
The topic should be edited as "Forward (football)". Because that is how the game is called by 7 billion people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 01:07, 12 July 2012 (UTC) - We know that NFL pays big money to Wikipedia for the name, but this should be stated, so that there can be hope for the world in fight against corrupted lies. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 01:12, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Me about introduction
"Forwards, also known as strikers"
What happened with Ronaldo in this ranking? He is the most expensive transfer in the history and I don't see him there. If Luis Figo or Hulk appears in the list, Ronaldo too. I hope an answer or I will edit it. Sorry for my bad English — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 16:34, 3 February 2013 (UTC)