Talk:Francisco Franco

Franco the Fascist?

Pardon my apparent ignorance about this piece of history, and I apologize for whatever flame war may ensue, but was Franco a fascist? Did he ever claim to embrace fascism or express pursuit of its aims? I've always been under the impression he was just a "basic" autocrat. 74.107.119.82 (talk) 03:58, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

The term 'fascist' is a little subjective. Franco may have not instigated the holocaust like Hitler and as perceived fascists go he was probably a moderate. I suppose his far-right neo-conservatism, his colonial desires, his distaste for democracy, his love of censorship and his heavy intervention in everyday life possibly put him in the category for fascists, although all the above statements apply aptly to Winston Churchill, yet history has a different reminiscent view of him. Calling Franco a fascist does equate him somewhat with Hitler and Mussolini, which is probably not entirely fair and a little misleading, but somehow the terms 'moderate fascist' and 'liberal fascist' have an inherent irony to them. Mtaylor848 (talk) 08:04, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

FYI the question has popped up a couple of times earlier in this talk page. Perhaps the best discussion was at the Not a fascist thread. Btw, Jmabel contribution there should not be glossed over. There are a couple of reasons why, though, to reach a consensus is mainly impossible:

1. The concept Fascism is really difficult to define
2. Very early (prior to 1933) it became a "propaganda" derisive term, i.e. deprived of real meaning, but not of derogatory sense (it was not unusual to call socialdemocratic parties "social-fascists", for instance) The derogatory sense of the term has outlived its origins.
3. The equation Fascism = Nazism has made the term the apex of the unacceptable in political thinking, and to stick this label on to any political movement is to deprive it of any legitimity or "goodness" without the need of further discussing it.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Wllacer (talk • contribs) 15:57, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually finding a consensus is not quite that difficult, as Stanley Payne, the preeminent scholar on fascism and Spain notes: "scarcely any of the serious historians and analysts of Franco consider the generalissimo to be a core fascist." (quoted in Laqueur, Walter Fascism: Past, Present, Future, p. 13, 1997 Oxford University Press US) The reason for this consensus is that fascism is almost always described as having a radical, revolutionary, palingenic component or a goal to "remake" man. Franco unequivocally lacks this element. As to consensus on a definition of fascism, there has been for sometime talk of a "new consensus", interestingly, as pointed out by Roger Griffin, even most of those who object to the existence of a consensus posit definitions which are consistent with what Griffin says is the consensus. Mamalujo (talk) 20:41, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm afraid that that definition is denied as soon as one considers Russell's assertion in his History of Western Philosophy that Fascism is not only a political movement but also a philosophy which, like some others, has as a fundamental belief that there are those who are born to have power and those who are not. Thus the right to slaughter one's opponents - including political or religious opponents - is an inherent part of Fascist philosophy, not merely an inconvenient trait of some Fascist politicians. In sum, was Franco a far right politician and dictator who slaughtered his opponents? Yes. Does that reasonably qualify him to be called Fascist? IMV yes.

Drg40 (talk) 21:54, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Fully agree with Wllacer's comments above. Individuals are far too complex to slap mere labels on them, and Franco's personality has been/is/and probably will always be notoriously difficult to define. Consensus on this issue, as with just about any other issue, is therefore impossible, and like all consensus, will only depend on the specific moment in time said consensus is reached. The oft-quoted Payne states that Franco was not a "core" fascist. Nothing more, nothing less. On the other hand, at the time of the SCW, while much of the support for Franco in Spain came from pro-fascists, and outside support came directly from fascists, this obviously does not make Franco a fascist himself, although he undoubtedly had more sympathies with fascism than with the opposite end of the spectrum at the time, communism. Simplistic? Necessarily so. BTW, George Orwell, among other writers writing at the time, referred to fighting against fascism, represented in Spain by Franco. Notwithstanding the above, I personally would not define Franco as a fascist, and I think Mtaylor sums it up quite neatly above. --Technopat (talk) 23:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

The general consensus I have seen among is that Franco wasn't much for ideology, so its hard to pin him to a specific "ism." On the other hand, he ended up leading the Fascist Falange and put Falange members in to high office after the civil war. He also supported the Axis in WWII. After WWII, Franco stepped back from his alliance with the Falange and put less ideological people in charge, dropped the Roman salute, and steered toward more garden variety autocracy. As others have stated, the definition of fascism is vague, but Franco at least shared the conservatism, traditionalism, militarism, and nationalism of his fascist allies. I think the article has generally reflected this complex relationship between Franco and fascism. That said, is there a specific point to this discussion? Talk pages are not supposed to be about edits to the article, not general discussions.--Bkwillwm (talk) 01:29, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Well, Bkwillwm n this case i do think its relevant. First because it is an issue which comes forward with certain regularity, it's about if the term fascist is or not a weasel word in Franco's case, and, though important, is a question which shall be discussed to understand Franco but only fits in the main page seriosuly digested, and could have serious impact in the rest of the article. Just as a sample let me fisk your (and Technopat) comment:

he ended up leading the Fascist Falange and put Falange members in to high office after the civil war

Well, what Franco really did in 1937 was to create an unified political support branch with a forced merger of the two groups with leading militias on his side (Falangism and Carlists) and a number of other supporters of the "Alzamiento". The unified party remained for the rest of its active live a balanced coalition of very divergent views, and always secondary to the state and army (the opposite to "real fascist" states). Although cross-dressed with fascist trapping, the majority ideological view was rather linked to "Accion Española" -authoritarian right-. than to Falange proper, In the Ramón Serrano Suñer times (up to 1943) there was a trend to "fascistize" the regime, but it never took off (this last statement is wide open to further study). If this balance of power is not understood the internal political development is unintelligible.

He also supported the Axis in WWII.

And for the greatest joy of historians who love to discuss in a complex and ambiguous manner ;-)

After WWII, Franco stepped back from his alliance with the Falange and put less ideologicfal people in charge, dropped the Roman salute, and steered toward more garden variety autocracy

See first fisk. The internal imbalance of power inside the goverment and party was shifted against the "old shirts" (camisas viejas, pre 18-july falangists) in two phases. First in 1943, where both the international situation and internal incidents like the bombing at the shirne of Begoña, made an end to the most militant falangism (and carlist oponents, btw), and later in 1954/57, when a series of politcal and economical unrests, made the falangists lose their influence in the economical realm. Even after that, people like Jose Antonio Girón de Velasco still kept important positions. IIRC the roman salute outside the party was dropped in 1947

As others have stated, the definition fo fascism is vague, but Franco at least shared the conservatism, tradditionalism, militarism, and nationalism of his fascist allies

Well, exactlcy the two first caracteristics are what do NOT make francoism fascist, and the two others are rather neutral. If anything, nor italian Fascism neither german Nazism were conservative or traditionalists

I shall point that this discussion is not new, as it exists since 1936. One of the funniest moments in Radosh's Spain Betrayed is document #27, where Antonov-Oseenko (General Consul of the Soviet Union in Barcelona) tells how he lectured Companys and others that they were fighting "Fascism" and not classical "reactionaries", as the spaniards thought. YMMV but i found it telling ..., what brings me back to Orwell (but this time 1984) --Wllacer (talk) 10:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I think this does raise an important point. It is not for us to put labels on politicians one way or another. Perhaps the text should outline this divisive question in the opening statement. 'considered by many to be a fascist' (with citations) is better than just putting 'fascist'.Mtaylor848 (talk) 10:32, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

He also supported the Axis in WWII. - Again, that is also a little difficult to verify. Spain was neutral in the Second World War. Hitler supported Franco during the Spanish Civil War, presumably expecting Spanish military assistance in future wars, however this did not happen. Diplomatic support was offered to Axis powers, however the Axis powers and the Spanish government never saw eye-to-eye during this era either, with the two powers disagreeing on issues such as Gibraltar. The Franco regime is a little bit of an enigma, because it never really committed to any international alliances, fascist or otherwise and more-or-less followed its own agenda. The characteristics of an autocracy are there but not necessarily the characteristics of fascism. It is never possible to say conclusively that someone was a fascist (although I doubt there is the same debate about Adolf Hitler), some people would say that all traffic wardens and other representatives of 'the establishment' are fascists. Mtaylor848 (talk) 10:45, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I still think it would help to establish a clear, article-related objective for this discussion. The article currently doesn't describe Franco as fascist, and I think it does an OK job of describing his relationship with fascism. If you want to remove the fascist side bar, I don't have a problem with that. I don't see the point to any of the responses to what I said. This isn't the place for debate unless disputes are tied back to the article.--Bkwillwm (talk) 04:19, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Franco favored the Spanish cultural diversity

I would like to change a paragraph that states that Franco repressed the cultural diversity of Spain. Before doing that I would like to start a discussion here in an attempt to ask the wikipedia contributors the source of this information. This is the original text in the version of April 20th 2011: “Franco's Spanish nationalism promoted a unitary national identity by repressing Spain's cultural diversity. Bullfighting and flamenco[51] were promoted as national traditions while those traditions not considered "Spanish" were suppressed.”

[1] Supposed repression of cultural diversity

I have read the source that is referenced identified as [51]. This source is based on an interview of a Flamenco Guitar teacher about the decline of students in flamenco guitar lessons. This teacher states that during Franco´s dictatorship this was more popular. I think that Franco’s dictatorship is a key episode in The Spanish History and so does deserve a more grounded reference. I lived during the dictatorship and traveled throughout all the Spanish regions. I didn’t see any policy of erasing the cultural diversity. On the contrary, Franco allowed one of the many political parties that supported him (Falange) to take care through its feminine Members (es:Sección Femenina) to provide visibility of the Spanish folklore and traditions of all its regions. This could be checked in the video footage of the yearly cultural events “es:Juegos Florales Internacionales”. So I state that this is not only false but that it is exactly the opposite. If Franco´s mistake of forbidding the regional languages as he did for public usage is considered by itself a cultural repression then the statement is true. But I consider that this has a broader meaning. I would consider more a cultural repression the language the policy that today some separatist regions apply when suggesting the teenagers to talk the regional language during the school break. The mistaken policy of using only one official language for public affairs was with the purpose of creating an efficient country and not for repression.

[2] Supposed unitary identity by suppressing regional supposed non-Spanish traditions

The dictator based the unitary identity on the Catholic System of Beliefs. This identity was not created by Franco but by The Spanish Queen Isabella I of Castile. Franco placed himself below God as did all the traditional Spanish Kings until Ferdinand VII of Spain due to The French Revolution. He was a traditional leader and so very religious so it is hard to believe he wanted a cultural homogenous country. Look at today’s facts: Spain is still one of the richest countries in the world in cultural diversity in just half a million square kilometers. Only leaders stick to an Ideology try to homogenize a country in its cultural expressions and Franco has not ideology at all (This is explained in the books of Pío Moa). The two homogeneous policies he applied were to observe the Catholic ethical beliefs and to use a common language in all the nations for public affairs. I don't think is a a proper way to use the term "suppression of regional traditions".

[3] Bullfighting and Flamenco

Both were very popular during Franco´s dictatorship but they were that because the people wanted them to be popular. Franco didn`t force anybody to love Bullfighting and Flamenco. There is an important thing missing here: “La Jota Aragonese”. The Jota was also very popular and is not from Andalusia but from Aragon. I think that this statement provides a narrow view of those times. These were famous before Franco. Flamenco had a revival in the early nineties and Franco was already dead.

So I would suggest to erase that sentence and I don't see it properly grounded and doesn't reflect the experiences I had by this time. --Keenonmaps (talk) 23:56, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with the proposal. Yes, the statement should have a better citation, but a reference based on specific reference in a tangentially related article is better than no citation at all. Please find a source that says that says Franco promoted cultural diversity. Also, I think you should not dismiss the importance of Franco's suppression of minority languages. You can't write this off by coming up with your own personal explanation justifying language suppression for the sake of efficiency. Do you have any citations for this view? From what I've read, Franco actively censored minority languages, especially culturally important media like music, theater, and literature. Most sources consider this censorship and not a benign attempt at efficiency. I'll try to get my citations together soon.--Bkwillwm (talk) 05:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Name

The name given at the start of the article is incorrect

Francisco Paulino Hermenegildo Teódulo de Franco y Bahamonde Salgado-Araujo y Pardo de Andrade

His name, by modern standards, would simply read:

Francisco Franco (y) Bahamonde (given name - paternal surname - maternal surname)

If we were to include the baptismal names:

Francisco Paulino Hermenegildo Teódulo Franco (y) Bahamonde (given name - baptismal names - paternal surname - maternal surname)

By the looks of it someone has simply tacked his parents maternal surnames on the end Salgado-Araujo y Pardo de Andrade —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.48.204 (talk) 00:00, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

in North Africa...in Spain

"Curiously, the city of Melilla, located in North Africa, has the distinction of being the only place in Spain where a statue of Franco is still visible on a public street."

Say wha...? This needs a bit of clarification for those unfamiliar with Melilla. - SummerPhD (talk) 17:55, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

From the very Wikipedia: Melilla "is a 12.3 square kilometres (4.7 sq mi) autonomous city of Spain and an exclave located on the Mediterranean Sea, on the north coast of North Africa surrounded by Morocco". Anyone needing a clarification would just have to follow the link. 150.214.222.81 (talk) 23:06, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

The article text:

"Although Franco and Spain under his rule adopted some trappings of fascism, he, and Spain under his rule, are not generally considered to be fascist; among the distinctions, fascism entails a revolutionary aim to transform society, where Franco and Franco's Spain did not seek to do so, and, to the contrary, although authoritarian, were conservative and traditional."

should be seriously reconsidered. The definition of fascism is sloppy, and the wording is convoluted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ekoostic (talk • contribs) 02:33, 10 December 2011 (UTC)