Talk:Frank Schaeffer

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Another interview[edit]

You may want to add a link to this Frank Schaeffer interview by Jerome McDonnell of Chicago Public Radio.

And here's another interview on his book "Patience with God".

Editing Without Discussion[edit]

I see in the History page that we have gone back and forth a bit in deleting and then adding back in information for this entry. Thank you to those who put the information back and improved upon it. For those who deleted, let's follow wiki guidelines and discuss first. Thank you very much for your consideration in this matter :-) --Awinger48 21:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Names[edit]

When Francis Schaeffer was still alive, his son was known as the author Franky Schaeffer and his production company was Franky Schaeffer V." Now he is just known as Frank Schaeffer, period. There is no need to refer to him at the top of the article as Francis A. Schaeffer V. Then you would need to refer to his father as Francis A. Schaeffer IV. Can't we just have his name as he is known now, which is Frank Schaeffer? That's why I'm changing the lead paragraph, to reflect that. If anyone disagrees, let's discuss - okay :-) --Awinger48 22:15, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Whatever Happened to the Human Race? Film Subject Matter[edit]

This is being reverted back to what was originally written. If a change is needed, then let's discuss it. Thank you :-) --Awinger48 22:24, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Crazy for God[edit]

The expression "Crazy for God" was coined by Sun Myung Moon. "We leaders should leave the tradition that we have become crazy for God." - The Way of God's Will, chapter 3 Leaders. I just thought I would mention that although I don't see how it could be worked into the article. Happy holidays to all. Steve Dufour (talk) 15:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

This really has nothing to do with Frank Schaeffer's book, and I know, because I've read Moon in context, and I've read F.S.'s book for context. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.241.103.122 (talk) 07:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Frank's Father's words[edit]

The section where Frank talks about how his Father's words got him invited to dine with Presidents could use a bit of elucidation. I'd like to see at least a reference to his Father's actual words, in context, added to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MiguelMunoz (talkcontribs) 02:28, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to see some elaboration on that, too. I think Frank made that up.67.237.189.239 (talk) 15:05, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
I did some research on this question. See my comment at the bottom.67.237.189.239 (talk) 19:37, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Chapter 8 of Francis Schaeffer's A Christian Manifesto entitled "The Use of Civil Disobedience" talks about armed resistance, armed revolution and armed rebellion. On page 98, Francis Schaeffer states: "In contrast to the countries named above where there was success for the Reformation -- in each case involving various forms of civil disobedience or armed rebellion -- one can think of where the Reformation was exterminated by force because of the lack of such protection: (Schaeffer goes on to cite Hungary as the first example)" = Citation: http://books.google.com/books?id=FNIboW-rZTwC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q=Armed%20Rebellion&f=false / he also states almost the exact quote verbatim on page 93 (quote begins, pages 94-96 are not available).I am not an editor, so I have not edited the material. I am merely offering a source for Frank Schaeffer's statement about this father's words. Bgansel9 (talk) 15:34, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

There's a huge difference between theorizing when force might be justified and actually calling for the overthrow of the U.S. government. Frank Schaeffer claims his father did the latter, and that is an absolute falsehood. His blog that made the accusation contained cherry-picked quotes from "A Christian Manifesto" that were taken completely out of context. Provide stronger proof of these accusations, or keep the disclaimer that Frank's accusations are false.97.73.64.142 (talk) 01:23, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
With regard to the U.S. government, Francis Schaeffer did suggest that civil disobedience might someday be necessary. However, civil disobedience is by definition non-violent. Thus, Frank Schaeffer's accusation against his father is pure, unadulterated libel. Since the elder Schaeffer is dead and unable to defend himself, this is a most cowardly accusation on Frank's part.76.6.218.158 (talk) 18:14, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Antiochian Orthodox[edit]

Not sure how this kind of thing works. I didn't want to just edit the page, but it is 14 years out of date though it appears it was updated in 2006. The statement "Rather than unite these congregations with the ethnically rooted Syrian-Americans, they became part of the Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Church" is no longer accurate. As of 1995 the two groups have been fully united, and also there was never a separate Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Church. It was entitled the Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission during the interim period of its reception into the Antiochian Orthodox Church and its full integration. This link is appropriate on these issues http://www.ogreatmystery.com/eoc/ and the information is summarized in another wikipedia article here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelical_Orthodox_Church . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.236.68.227 (talk) 03:51, 15 October 2009 (UTC)

[[Kosovan_people#Religion|Muslim Kosovar]][edit]

Seems a stretch, almost an easter egg. Comment by a rational editor? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:23, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

"Violent overthrow"? Come now![edit]

Where did Francis Schaeffer EVER call for the "violent overthrow" of the U.S. government? I've read several of his books, and he never advocated any such thing. If there's no documentation for such a claim other than Frank's words, then this section should be deleted or at least re-worded.67.237.189.239 (talk) 15:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I did some research on this question. In fact, Francis Schaeffer NEVER called for the violent overthrow of the U.S. government. His son's accusation is based on some statements that he took out of context from A Christian Manifesto, and is nothing but out-and-out slander. See the following link: http://douthat.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/08/31/misreading-francis-schaeffer/?emc=eta1 I have taken the liberty of setting the record straight in the article.67.237.189.239 (talk) 19:39, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
Frank Schaeffer also tried to draw some parallels between his father and Jeremiah Wright. Jeremiah Wright adheres to liberation theology, which Francis Schaeffer emphatically repudiated. Evidently, little Frankie has a rather unstable relationship with the truth.67.237.189.239 (talk) 14:49, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Contradiction on date of conversion to Orthodoxy[edit]

"In 1990 Schaeffer became an Orthodox Christian as a member of the Orthodox Church, which he says "embraces paradox and mystery". He converted in 1992 at a Greek Orthodox Church in Newburyport, MA." Which is it? Kansan (talk) 15:19, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm tempted to say neither, since both are unsourced. StAnselm (talk) 20:24, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Why does Wikipedia perpetuate a lie?[edit]

Frank Schaeffer claims that his father called for violent overthrow of the U.S. government. I've read many of Francis Schaeffer's books, including "A Christian Manifesto", and he never said any such thing. Why does Wikipedia insist on allowing this lie to go unchallenged? Don't tell me to provide documentation, as that would require me to prove the negative. Frank Schaeffer is making the accusation, so he has the burden of proof. Does Wikipedia condone libel against a man who is dead and unable to defend himself?97.73.64.154 (talk) 21:15, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

Bias and Omission of Published Remarks in "Christianity Today"[edit]

This page seems favorably biased to Frank to me. For example, severely critical comments of him were made by a close associate (even best-man and philosopher, Os Guinness) from a published article in "Christianity Today".

I agree. This article is so slanted I'm beginning to think Frank Schaeffer wrote it himself.97.73.64.145 (talk) 23:24, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Here's what Francis Schaeffer ACTUALLY said....[edit]

Here are Francis Schaeffer's own words regarding violence and the government:

"In a fallen world, force in some form will always be necessary. We must not forget that every existing government uses and must use force in order to exist. Two principles, however, must always be observed. First, there must be a legitimate basis and a legitimate exercise of force. Second, any overreaction crosses the line from force to violence. And unmitigated violence can never be justified." A Christian Manifesto, p. 107, emphasis added.

"At this time in our history, protest is our most viable alternative. This is because the freedom that still allows us to use protest to the maximum still exists. However, we must realize that protest is a form of force. This is very much so with the so-called 'nonviolent resistance'. This was, and is, not a negation of force, but a choice of the kind of force to be used." Ibid., p. 108, emphasis added.

"We must say that speaking of civil disobedience is frightening because there are so many kooky people around. People are always irresponsible in a fallen world. But we live in a special time of irresponsible people, and such people will in their unbalanced way tend to do the very opposite from considering the appropriate means at the appropriate time and place. Anarchy is never appropriate." Ibid. p. 126, emphasis added.

In other words, it is simply NOT TRUE that Francis Schaeffer called for violent overthrow of the U.S. government.97.73.64.144 (talk) 20:17, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

(I realize this is an old thread, but the editor has raised the issue several times over the years and might return in their quest to address what they see as a terrible wrong.)
This is original research. Showing that the father said X does not demonstrate that he didn't say Y, nor does it support your accusations of libel which are completely off-topic here.
If you believe this should be included in the article, you will need to locate an independent reliable source discussing it. - SummerPhD (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2014 (UTC)